Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguin Salary Thread: TDL - 7 Days.....

[Ugene Magic]

Carry on....

Zucker's big issue is that I think he felt the need to try and live up to the price tag the previous idiot paid to acquire him. He tried to do way too many things at once. One shift he'd be trying to play a production-driven role, another he'd be that kinda grunt-work sorta third wheel guy, another he'd be some weird mix of both which accomplished neither, etc. If he just settled into the guy he was in Minny--pre-breakout Rust kinda guy who hustled his ass off, did the dirty work and chipped in occasionally, he'd be fine. But he hasn't been able to, and the lack of a production-driver on his opposite wing doesn't really help him out either.

Kinda like Kap in a way. The dude doesn't know (or is simply incapable) how to really be a production-driver. He and Zucker seem like decent or good 3rd liners, but real disappointments in a scoring line role unless they're in pristine conditions that optimize what they bring. This is not that situation, sadly.


-edit- Guess Manson's off the table. A trade of medium significance going down means the new and improved HFboards is completely shitting the bed.

By the way, Seravalli was allegedly on the radio in Canada and said that the Penguins offered Kapanen and/or Pettersson for Boeser, but the Canucks said no and it seems like negotiations are basically done. The Penguins also offered those two to other teams but couldn't come to agreement on any other trades.

On one hand, I think Hextall offering that package and expecting something good for it back suggests that those two actually have legitimate value. Maybe Hextall is just an idiot, but I don't think Hextall would be offering something that is just ludicrously stupid if he was going after someone like Boeser, even if the trade didn't materialize.

Could all of those struggles posted regarding Zucker and Kap be Coach related?

Kapanen does not match Sully's style, at all. Thought maybe a different, speed/breakaway type guy could be useful here but ultimately not. I think he'll be a popular buy-low candidate for someone in the offseason.

Zucker's struggles are as BFD did - either doing too much or really being a good 3rd line tweener who happened to get paid/a reputation above what he merited. With his contract he'll be tough to move and we'll have to take $$$ back.

I pulled up an old link for what a poster on the mainboard said and the story was from August 4, 2021.

Pittsburgh Penguins looking to trade Marcus Pettersson

Things seem shady.

This is along the same lines as your Crosby/Malkin aren't top centers anymore post.

I agree with the first one. The second one seems odd especially when we are entertaining a player like Garland whose resume looks sparkling largely because of a small GP total.

IDK if Petts is a top for D-man a good team wants though. He's been sheltered here since last season with minutes cut back. Just recently he has been getting more mins and the issues start to come.

Could he still become a solid top 4 guy?......sure, we just don't have the luxury to wait that out and pay him what we are hoping it happens.

Hextall’s more of a Shero then a Rutherford. Should play nicely with Petts and Kapanen if they are moved out.

Zucker on paper was a good acquisition for the team, even if overpaid and too high of an acquisition cost.

In practice he was a bad fit and also exposed as a limited/flawed player. That doesn't mean that every player who profiles like Zucker will flop the same way. It may happen but it isn't guaranteed.

Has Zucker flopped? We expect 20 and 20 from him in an 82 game season. Garland provides 20 and 30. Ultimately what is the difference?

I guess that is my main issue with bringing in Garland is this team learning from the Zucker trade.

We’re a good team and he’s been our #5.

It's been two years after we acquired him and the consensus is that we have 2 wingers worthy of our 2 centers. Read: not including him.

So yeah, he has flopped.

I don’t see how we can accurately judge Zucker on the seasons we’ve seen from him.

He’s not a must keep or anything, but I don’t see how Garland is much different than him.

I read this more like no one is really interested in those two unless they probably come with a first round pick or good prospect lol

Garland or Jarnkrok. Both are solid 5v5 and give honest efforts every shift. Neither would be overly costly. Although Jarnkrok should be pretty cheap in comparison. Solid but unremarkable.

I can see potentially Pettersson costing us. Kapanen we could likely get a shitty UFA back. Or a bad contract.

Garland essentially cost a top ten 1st. I don’t see how he would not be overly costly.

I dont know if Garland is truly a top 6 winger though? I mean I like some of the things he brings but I think we need to do something that is a little bit surefire. That's how we got into much of the messes in the first place. Bring in players who are supposed to work out and they don't.

Perron, Brassard, Zucker (Still hopeful he does something this year), Kapanen, Pearson etc. I mean I like the effort and I know GMJR gets a lot of flack around here and people forget some of the great moves he pulled off ( Kessel, Matheson, Daley, Shultz, Bonino) etc. He definitely kept it interesting, issue is sometimes when those players don't work you gotta pay to move them and it looks pretty bad. GMJR had no shame in correcting players that weren't working out

So he was not on the radio saying this today?

Yeah that’s my hang up with people saying Garland is a “pure goal scorer” or pushing his 5v5 metrics.

Like sure we can say those things, but dude has not paced past 20 or so goals ever. That’s a “pure goal scorer” now?

What?

Click to read more...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Bringing this from the other thread:

In an ideal world I think those are the 2 best pieces & most expendable we can move. I believe both guys carry decent value as well to other teams Both are young, cost controlled and even though their game isn't where it needs to be they have talent that GM's like to chance.

Gonna be a lot of back and forth, GMs will shop the market as well and play hardball etc.

If we moved Kap and Petts for upgrades I'd be a pretty happy pens fan. (Even though I root every game for Kap to turn it around as some of his sexy plays are burned into my homer eyes)

I'm personally pretty low on Pettersson's value, not because I hate him as a player but because I don't think LD have that much value anymore in the NHL. It seems like pretty much every team I've looked at has a good collection of LD, to the point where there almost seems to be a surplus of good LD. Pettersson being a relatively bland depth guy with a big contract while playing a position that most teams seemingly are well set in makes me skeptical he has a ton of value.

If you look at past trades, it seems like LD bring back pennies on the dollar compared to RD. OEL was effectively dumped for a package of shorter term cap dump while Jones was traded for Boqvist and 2 high 1sts.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Moving too fast....

Garland cost the Canucks a top ten 1st.

Those two wouldn't be offered for an asset on par with Boeser if they weren't valued in the eyes of Hextall. Maybe Hextall's an idiot and everyone disagrees with him, but that offer makes me think that those guys are at least decently valued.

He's not a HFBoard poster who offers spare parts for superstars. He's an actual NHL GM that seems to think that the value of Kapanen and Pettersson combined should get at least close to Boeser.

oh ok,

Leaving aside that at Zucker's cost and previous track record we were expecting closer to 50 than 40, we wouldn't be having this conversation if Zucker looked near 20 and 20 this season and also, crucially, was a guy we could rely on to provide Malkin with help. Because it's not just about their numbers, it's about making sure our elite Cs have the right numbers too.

Although tbf Zucker has probably done more than anyone else on a per/60 basis to help Malkin there, just nobody trusts it to be more than a one match fluke.

I mean, Kapanen cost the Penguins picks #15 and Hallander like a year and a half ago, so why wouldn't he be overly costly to acquire now?

Not only do past trades of players impact their future value (a harsh lesson I learned with Derrick Brassard), but JR wasn't the guy who made that trade last off-season to begin with.

I think his situation is fairly comparable to Kapanen's situation, in that the guy paying the price for him just super overpaid to get him.

Tbf Garland has just basically repeated his previous season at 5v5 in Vancouver. Most dramatic change in price are due to dramatic changes in form, not due to a 0.03 difference in p/60. His overall stats look worse as he's gone from a PP1 to a PP2 so there might be some reduction, but if there's a big reduction Rutherford's being dumb.

I mean, it’s pretty much assumed Zucker was playing through a sports hernia this season no?

I don’t think Garland returns an unprotected 1st or something. But I don’t see Kapanen and a useless prospect like POJ doing it.

I don't think Garland is having a bad season, the analytics actually suggest the opposite and suggests he's having a good year. I just don't think what the Canucks paid for him is that super relevant because the guy who made that payment isn't the GM anymore.

It's the same deal with Kapanen, just because a team paid a 1st and a B prospect for him 2 years ago doesn't mean someone would do that now. I think the Canucks bought high on Garland and that trade was made by a moron GM.

Probably, but still doesn't change the detail about needing a guy for Malkin.

Incidentally, the timing of that injury really f***ing sucked.



It's still relevant because he's still largely the same player and the likelihood of a team coming quite close to that is a lot better than it is for Kapanen, who has picked the wrong moment to shit himself as you've pointed out.

If Garland was put on the market, there should be a better offer than Kapanen unless Rutherford really loves Kapanen. Which he does, but that's the case for the deal, not objective value.

I do think it's interesting that Hextall's shown his hand a bit by saying he'd like to add a scoring line winger, and we're hearing all this chatter about specific names and potential teams we could be working with. I think it adds to the intrigue that we're apparently shopping some pretty sizable assets--and while it's not a given, it seems like we're more interested in adding significantly as opposed to being happy with a low-risk, under the radar move like last TDL. Even more interesting is that we're apparently only in the market for guys with term, so no rentals.

I take that to mean; A. the team is unhappy with the supporting cast and wants to add more punch for what they feel is likely to be the last hurrah, and B. they feel like Rust or Letang are absolutely gone, maybe both.

In an ideal world I think those are the 2 best pieces & most expendable we can move. I believe both guys carry decent value as well to other teams Both are young, cost controlled and even though their game isn't where it needs to be they have talent that GM's like to chance.

Gonna be a lot of back and forth, GMs will shop the market as well and play hardball etc.

If we moved Kap and Petts for upgrades I'd be a pretty happy pens fan. (Even though I root every game for Kap to turn it around as some of his sexy plays are burned into my homer eyes)

Is he largely the same player? When the Canucks traded for him, he was coming off a season where he was pacing for 65 points. This year, he's pacing for only 48 points, which is more in line with what I feel like he is.

I think Garland's situation is that a bad GM bought high on him. He's still a really good 50 point 2nd liner on a fair contract, so he definitely still has value, but I strongly doubt he pulls off what he pulled off last off-season if he was traded right now. Like I posted a few times, I think Kapanen and POJ for Garland gets you pretty close.

 

[Gurglesons]

Bringing this from the other thread:



I'm personally pretty low on Pettersson's value, not because I hate him as a player but because I don't think LD have that much value anymore in the NHL. It seems like pretty much every team I've looked at has a good collection of LD, to the point where there almost seems to be a surplus of good LD. Pettersson being a relatively bland depth guy with a big contract while playing a position that most teams seemingly are well set in makes me skeptical he has a ton of value.

If you look at past trades, it seems like LD bring back pennies on the dollar compared to RD. OEL was effectively dumped for a package of shorter term cap dump while Jones was traded for Boqvist and 2 high 1sts.

OEL’s contract is also one of the top ten worst contracts in the league.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

We'll see what happens. Part of me is happy they seem to be more willing to throw the kitchen sink at one final run. Part of me feels it's probably too little, too late with the amount of work that needs to be done in order to set up a team with a 35 year old core for a deep run in the playoffs.

I don't know that Kap's got much value, to be honest. He was a blatantly obvious cap casualty for Toronto, and he's spent two seasons here just kinda looking either like a good 3rd liner or a real mess. Petts is a boring but safe enough blueliner on what I'd call a bit of a bloated contract. I don't think Marino's much better than Petts as an asset except he plays RD which seems to be more of a sought after position.

I wouldn't really be bent out of shape at all if we lost one or multiple of them. They're depth guys and not even very significant ones imo. Marino's cruising along on the legend he built as a rookie but has been pretty meh or downright bad since. Petts is sort of in the same boat but didn't have as high a peak as Marino did. Kap's a guy who seems destined to forever be trying to "figure it out", perpetual prospect brain, and a guy who you're not going to really get the most out of unless you sorta build a line around his game/skillset--and that just isn't gonna happen here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

OEL’s contract is also one of the top ten worst contracts in the league.

And the Hawks gave Jones one of the top ten worst contracts in the league right after that trade

 

[Peat]

Is he largely the same player? When the Canucks traded for him, he was coming off a season where he was pacing for 65 points. This year, he's pacing for only 48 points, which is more in line with what I feel like he is.

I think Garland's situation is that a bad GM bought high on him. He's still a really good 50 point 2nd liner on a fair contract, so he definitely still has value, but I strongly doubt he pulls off what he pulled off last off-season if he was traded right now. Like I posted a few times, I think Kapanen and POJ for Garland gets you pretty close.

As I said, he's gone from being on a PP1 to being on a PP2. That is the difference.

At 5v5 he is virtually the same player. His p60 has gone from 2.37 to 2.34 - virtually identical. He's become more of a goalscorer due to shooting more but his shooting percentage has gone from 9.38 to 9.30. His xGF% has slid from 6.88 to 5.06, but that's not a huge deal. His relative GF% has gone from 13.93 to 14.30 for what it's worth. Ice time is down by 26 seconds a game, but he's still on 2nd line minutes.

But he's gone from 2:54 a night of PP time scoring 4.3 p/60 to 1.50 a night scoring 1.18 p/60. Or an 8 point swing over this part of the season. He's gone from PP time with Schmaltz and Dvorak to Pearson and Hoglander. It's pretty much the entirety of the difference.

So... it looks he is in fact exactly the same player, just given different usage. The usage will affect the price, possibly quite a lot, but not to the same extent that just becoming really bad at hockey will.

 

[Empoleon8771]

As I said, he's gone from being on a PP1 to being on a PP2. That is the difference.

At 5v5 he is virtually the same player. His p60 has gone from 2.37 to 2.34 - virtually identical. He's become more of a goalscorer due to shooting more but his shooting percentage has gone from 9.38 to 9.30. His xGF% has slid from 6.88 to 5.06, but that's not a huge deal. His relative GF% has gone from 13.93 to 14.30 for what it's worth. Ice time is down by 26 seconds a game, but he's still on 2nd line minutes.

But he's gone from 2:54 a night of PP time scoring 4.3 p/60 to 1.50 a night scoring 1.18 p/60. Or an 8 point swing over this part of the season. He's gone from PP time with Schmaltz and Dvorak to Pearson and Hoglander. It's pretty much the entirety of the difference.

So... it looks he is in fact exactly the same player, just given different usage. The usage will affect the price, possibly quite a lot, but not to the same extent that just becoming really bad at hockey will.

No, that's just what I mean though. I know he's no worse of a player, he's just not the 65 point player the Canucks thought they were trading for. I know he's a terrific 5v5 player, which is why I'd be happy to have him, but the overall decrease in production (which comes from a change in usage) makes me think the Canucks wouldn't be able to get back what they paid for him.

I think the Canucks paid a price for a 65 point forward and he's limited to a 50 point forward on their team (and on pretty much any good team). I don't think they can demand the price they paid for him because he's just not worth the price they paid for him. And beyond that, JR won't have the sunk cost fallacy there because he's not the guy who paid that price for him.

I think we fully agree here, but I think we had a minor misunderstanding when I said "is he the same player?". I meant he wasn't the same trade asset due to being used less, not that he was a worse player.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Just another reminder that OEL and Garland were part of that same package of the 9OA, 2nd, 7th plus Eriksson, Beagle and Roussel.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just another reminder that OEL and Garland were part of that same package of the 9OA, 2nd, 7th plus Eriksson, Beagle and Roussel.

I think the general consensus of those trades at the time were that it was basically 9OA for Garland and a 2nd plus the cap dumps for OEL.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I think the general consensus of those trades at the time were that it was basically 9OA for Garland and a 2nd plus the cap dumps for OEL.

We can spin it however we want, I don't think it would make a bit of a difference.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Bringing this from the other thread:



I'm personally pretty low on Pettersson's value, not because I hate him as a player but because I don't think LD have that much value anymore in the NHL. It seems like pretty much every team I've looked at has a good collection of LD, to the point where there almost seems to be a surplus of good LD. Pettersson being a relatively bland depth guy with a big contract while playing a position that most teams seemingly are well set in makes me skeptical he has a ton of value.

If you look at past trades, it seems like LD bring back pennies on the dollar compared to RD. OEL was effectively dumped for a package of shorter term cap dump while Jones was traded for Boqvist and 2 high 1sts.

He's a former 38th overall pick who is relatively young for a dman (around the age many just start to mature). I am not saying he's a late 1st round pick value guy by any means. More or less I feel like GM's would still value him. I dont even think he's terrible here I just feel like he doesn't bring anything we need. I have been advocating moving him since last season. He can be replaced internally.

I think he's a hockey trade type of guy that teams out there would take a run at.

You could certainly be 100% correct though. It all just comes down to what a team sees in him. This board including myself has been wrong on players values many many times.

 

[SEALBound]

Damn, Manson to Colorado for a decent prospect+ 2nd. A comparable offer would have been Broz + 2nd. Damn, Colorado...setting the prices high.

 

[MayorofWBS]

Damn, Manson to Colorado for a decent prospect+ 2nd. A comparable offer would have been Broz + 2nd. Damn, Colorado...setting the prices high.

Helleson is a much better prospect than Broz at this point.

 

[Coastal Kev]

How about Kap to Dallas for Radulov...

Maybe we add a wbs player and get a higher pick included?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

How about Kap to Dallas for Radulov...

Maybe we add a wbs player and get a higher pick included?

Radulov has 3 goals in 51 games. How is he gonna improve our playoff chances? 35 and washed.
At least with Kap there's a possibility of a rebound.

 

[dogthateats]

I have a feeling we will do something crazy and get a true big name.

 

[molon labe]

How about Kap to Dallas for Radulov...

Maybe we add a wbs player and get a higher pick included?

I've wanted Radulov here for several seasons. At this point it may be too late - but he's exactly what this team could use in more than one way.

Issue is that Dallas fans are bent on keeping him - and that team doesn't seem eager to get out of any of their bigger names. Benn and Seguin are performing slightly worse than Jeff Carter is for perspective (each making about 10M)....and have been for several seasons.

However now that he's in the final year of his deal and they're on the brink of missing the playoffs....they may very well be willing to do a shakeup trade.

 

[Pens x]

Wakey wakey, sleepy. Don’t screw this up.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I've wanted Radulov here for several seasons. At this point it may be too late - but he's exactly what this team could use in more than one way.

Issue is that Dallas fans are bent on keeping him - and that team doesn't seem eager to get out of any of their bigger names. Benn and Seguin are performing slightly worse than Jeff Carter is for perspective (each making about 10M)....and have been for several seasons.

However now that he's in the final year of his deal and they're on the brink of missing the playoffs....they may very well be willing to do a shakeup trade.

The hope being that Radulov adds size and connects with Malkin. You also would get a pick back and possible a decent one if you add big Z, who would probably work in Dallas.

 

[Gurglesons]

I feel like JFresh is what people want Dom to be in terms of his cold analytical takes.

 

[Jobeycool]

How about Kap to Dallas for Radulov...

Maybe we add a wbs player and get a higher pick included?

Same trade for just trading...does not make sense...we need to find scoring depth imo

 

[Phil68]

Kapanen For Gurianov... hope i spelled his name right. Pretty comparable hockey trade and both might need a change

 

[Trade]

Kapanen For Gurianov... hope i spelled his name right. Pretty comparable hockey trade and both might need a change

I’d be totally on board with this. Kappy just seems like he’d fit in nicely in Dallas tbh. There’s a spot on Seguin and Benn’s line waiting for him.

Gurianov is also 1 of the 130 people Malkin follows on instagram, so that’s….something.

We’d be the ones adding in that scenario, Gurianov’s playoff run in 2020 is better than anything Kappy has ever done.

 

[Pens x]

Why is Dallas being mentioned again when there’s a pretty good chance they make the playoffs? It sucks sleepy couldn’t work something out with JR.

Although, if JR can channel his magic from 2014-2016, maybe we don’t want sleepy to get abused in a trade.