Pre-Game Talk: PIT at EDM. No Despres Edition?!

[madinsomniac]

I HATE the Maatta-Niskanen pairing. It's basically just like when we kept putting Niskanen-Letang out there together last season. Or when we had Goligoski-Whitney. It makes zero sense, which is why we're going to continue to see it repeatedly.

Despres-Martin
Scuderi-Letang
Maatta-Bortuzzo

That's if we actually want to ice our best blueline.

Bad pairings have several factors that drive them... the first is lack of talent and options.. which is not our case


The others are usually:
-Playing guys out of comfort zones. Some guys can play any position and any side with no problem.. others are just wired differently. A guy covering the left side might just not be as effective as he is on the right, even though much of the play is redundant. I have no clue why... perhaps its mental....

-Playing guys with no chemistry. Sometimes guys just dont get along, but that is rare... usually its that they dont communicate well or more frequently that they share the same instincts... You will see a coach try to force offense by putting two offensive defensemen together and the both are pinching at the same time, or on the flip side two defensive guys who both are always falling back or two physical guys that are stepping up on guys and leaving the defensive zone uncovered

-Along the same line playing guys with redundant skill sets that leaves a talent hole in the pairing... this is when they both make the right reads on each other but they just dont have a good breakout pass between them.. or they are both too small to deal with guys in the crease... or they are both slow and cant get back fast enough...


Lets look at the engellend Orpik example.. both have had subpar defensive years, both are physical guys looking for the hit. While Engellend can play forward, he is not an offensive defenseman. Both of them struggle partially because they are too simular. rather than getting the intended effect, which is an ultra physical pairing, you get one that can be pressured and that really doesnt have the ability to skate the puck out of danger and doesnt have a great pass to save them either. A missed hit or even sometimes a connected one leaves them out of position. Often you see them play less physical togther because each one is trying to make sure they dont expose the other by stepping up for the hit.

The Letang Niskanen one paired a virtual extra forward with a guy who plays positional defense, but is mostly an offensive shooter. Rather than create a ton of offense, niskanen was often taking extra precautions on defense and both of them could be out physicaled in their own end.

In each of these cases the pairing rarely gave the intended advantage and often created a disadvantage that the opposition exploited

 

[Will Hunting]

I HATE the Maatta-Niskanen pairing.

Hopefully, you remember those games when they were our 1st pair and played 25+ minutes a game. They succeeded. Yeah, they´ve had (especially Maatta) a couple of rough games recently, but the last few games they were solid again. Niskanen is fine there. Olli is slowly but surely getting back, too. No reason to complain here. Orpik-whoever (other than PMart) on the other hand... Now, there´s a reason to hate a pairing.

 

[Fordy]

Hopefully, you remember those games when they were our 1st pair and played 25+ minutes a game. They succeeded. Yeah, they´ve had (especially Maatta) a couple of rough games recently, but the last few games they were solid again. Niskanen is fine there. Olli is slowly but surely getting back, too. No reason to complain here. Orpik-whoever (other than PMart) on the other hand... Now, there´s a reason to hate a pairing.

if by succeeded you mean played worse than Maatta-Bortuzzo but didn't **** up too badly then yeah, you're right.

 

[Will Hunting]

if by succeeded you mean played worse than Maatta-Bortuzzo but didn´t **** up too badly then yeah, you're right.

What the **** are you talking about? Maatta-Nisky was our 1st pair in 3 games (4-1 at Detroit playing constantly against Datsyuk, 3-1 vs Toronto playing constantly against Kessel and 4-3 at NYR playing constantly against Nash and Richards). They were great in those and handled a lots of extremely tough minutes there. Maatta-Bort pair was nice, but c´mon, they were playing 3rd pair minutes and also were quite a bit sheltered there. You are comparing uncomparable things here. Also, evaluating those Maatta-Nisky games as "didn´t **** up too badly" is really really ignorant. That was a great display there and they deserve more credit for it.

Also, I was replying to somebody who said that he hates Maatta-Niskanen pairing. I mean, we are playing Brooks ****ing Orpik 20+ minutes a game every single night and somebody here is hating Maatta-Niskanen pairing.. I don´t get it. I´m absolutely OK with Maatta-Niskanen as our 3rd pair going into the playoffs. One rough game here and there happens in January..

 

[chris11inter]

Gibbons playing with Crosby again tonight?

 

[Will Hunting]

Gibbons playing with Crosby again tonight?

Yeah.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

Hopefully, you remember those games when they were our 1st pair and played 25+ minutes a game. They succeeded. Yeah, they´ve had (especially Maatta) a couple of rough games recently, but the last few games they were solid again. Niskanen is fine there. Olli is slowly but surely getting back, too. No reason to complain here. Orpik-whoever (other than PMart) on the other hand... Now, there´s a reason to hate a pairing.

There is reason to complain. Niskanen-Maatta will be physically beaten in the playoffs. The goal that went off Maatta's foot in the Vancouver game is avoidable with Bortuzzo on the ice. Nisky-Maatta cannot clear the net and win physically demanding battles down low.

 

[Will Hunting]

There is reason to complain. Niskanen-Maatta will be physically beaten in the playoffs. The goal that went off Maatta's foot in the Vancouver game is avoidable with Bortuzzo on the ice. Nisky-Maatta cannot clear the net and win physically demanding battles down low.

Yeah, I understand that. But on the other hand, they are a great puck-moving pair and are very creative and calm in the offensive zone. If they are sheltered a bit then I believe that they will be able to create more offensive zone-time for our team which allows us to dominate a puck-possession against a lesser matchups. That´s why I´m OK with them AS A 3-rd PAIR in the playoffs. They could be a difference-maker that puts us over the top if they are used really properly there. Maatta-Niskanen can be a very very solid 3rd pairing. I hope to God that Jacques Martin will keep control under that in the playoffs and that thanks to him, this pair will be used the right way.

 

[Fordy]

What the **** are you talking about? Maatta-Nisky was our 1st pair in 3 games (4-1 at Detroit playing constantly against Datsyuk, 3-1 vs Toronto playing constantly against Kessel and 4-3 at NYR playing constantly against Nash and Richards). They were great in those and handled a lots of extremely tough minutes there. Maatta-Bort pair was nice, but c´mon, they were playing 3rd pair minutes and also were quite a bit sheltered there. You are comparing uncomparable things here. Also, evaluating those Maatta-Nisky games as "didn´t **** up too badly" is really really ignorant. That was a great display there and they deserve more credit for it.

Also, I was replying to somebody who said that he hates Maatta-Niskanen pairing. I mean, we are playing Brooks ****ing Orpik 20+ minutes a game every single night and somebody here is hating Maatta-Niskanen pairing.. I don´t get it. I´m absolutely OK with Maatta-Niskanen as our 3rd pair going into the playoffs. One rough game here and there happens in January..

We're not talking about a #1 pairing anymore, we're talking about the 3rd pairing. I'd rather have Bortuzzo there bringing some nastiness, you know, like you'd like from a 3rd pairing. Not to mention that I still trust Niskanen as far as I can throw him in the playoffs.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Or you could put Despres and Bortuzzo out there who would be just as good in the offensive zone and wouldn't get beaten up physically and instead would put a hurt on opposing forwards and could also benefit from less penalties being called in the playoffs...

...thats just silly old me though.

 

[Fordy]

Yeah, I understand that. But on the other hand, they are a great puck-moving pair and are very creative and calm in the offensive zone. If they are sheltered a bit then I believe that they will be able to create more offensive zone-time for our team which allows us to dominate a puck-possession against a lesser matchups. That´s why I´m OK with them AS A 3-rd PAIR in the playoffs. They could be a difference-maker that puts us over the top if they are used really properly there. Maatta-Niskanen can be a very very solid 3rd pairing. I hope to God that Jacques Martin will keep control under that in the playoffs and that thanks to him, this pair will be used the right way.

Maatta and Bortuzzo are also a good puck moving pair. They also don't fold the first time someone hits them. They're also good in the offensive zone.

Here's a question, what does Niskanen have that Bortuzzo doesn't? A better shot? Slightly better outlet pass? Less immediate chemistry with Maatta? His picture in the dictionary next to "soft"?

 

[MrBurghundy]

Would you rather have the smaller defensive pair that had proven they can't handle heavy forechecking and needs sheltered in the playoffs.

Or...

The much bigger **** stirring pair that plays physical while not sacrificing a lot of offense, who you still may have to shelter, but would also benefit from playoff style refereeing?

Easy choice 100% if the time.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Maatta and Bortuzzo are also a good puck moving pair. They also don't fold the first time someone hits them. They're also good in the offensive zone.

Here's a question, what does Niskanen have that Bortuzzo doesn't? A better shot? Slightly better outlet pass? Less immediate chemistry with Maatta? His picture in the dictionary next to "soft"?

Niskanen isn't soft. He just makes horrible decisions with the puck under pressure.

 

[Fordy]

Niskanen isn't soft. He just makes horrible decisions with the puck under pressure.

I would call that soft.

 

[MrBurghundy]

I would call that soft.

Not really. He still hits people and isn't afraid to get hit.

You have a different definition of soft then.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

It seems we need Niskanen to bail out Letang on the first PP unit, but when Martin returns we won't need that either.

Niskanen becomes the most redundant defenseman on our roster when we're fully healthy. I don't see why we would keep him around once Martin returns, but not only will we keep him around but Shero will likely re-sign him as well.

 

[Fordy]

Not really. He still hits people and isn't afraid to get hit.

You have a different definition of soft then.

dictionaries have multiple definitions

 

[MrBurghundy]

dictionaries have multiple definitions

True, but some definitions are a lot more common than others.

 

[Fordy]

True, but some definitions are a lot more common than others.

I'd say mentally soft is a pretty common definition.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The fact we're even discussing the dictionary meaning of 'Soft' with regards to Niskanen suggests we don't need him moving forward.

 

[MrBurghundy]

I'd say mentally soft is a pretty common definition.

Edit: I read that wrong.

Nobody said mentally soft. Just soft.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

He's probably more soff than soft.

 

[Will Hunting]

Maatta and Bortuzzo are also a good puck moving pair. They also don't fold the first time someone hits them. They're also good in the offensive zone.

Here's a question, what does Niskanen have that Bortuzzo doesn't? A better shot? Slightly better outlet pass? Less immediate chemistry with Maatta? His picture in the dictionary next to "soft"?

Niskanen in the offensive zone >> Bortz in the offensive zone. Not even close. Sorry, maybe we are watching a completely different thing here. Nisky is also a better skater and puck mover. Bortz is probably better in the defensive zone and definitely more physical and better around the net. I would really like to have Bortuzzo playing Orpik´s role. Pair him with Paul Martin and we are more than OK there. Then send Orpik to the moon or whatever. Orpik is the poison for our system, Niskanen fits that system well.

Btw. the whole discussion started when I said that Maatta-Nisky pair is OK and that I don´t HATE that pairing. That´s all. I just don´t hate that pair, is that wrong?

 

[MrBurghundy]

You'll change your mind when the playoffs come around.

 

[NiceGuyDrP]

Who gets the start tonight? Flower and then Zatkoff vs. the lowly Flames tomorrow?