Pietrangelo

[Bluesnatic27]

Petro in the defensive and neutral zone >> Parayko

Parayko in the offensive zone > Pietrangelo

Parayko is functioning (well) as our OFD - he's playing Shatty's role and doing pretty well. Parayko, at this point, has not shown that he can play better defense than Shatty, and he definitely hasn't shown better defense than Petro. Parayko is closest to replacing Shatty's production, but this, IMO, won't continue.

Offensively: Shattenkirk > Parayko > Pietrangelo
Defensively: Pietrangelo >> Shattenkirk > Parayko
Neutral Zone: Pietrangelo = Shattenkirk > Parayko

I'll be back with the advanced stats, but would prefer someone that knows better to do the work

Edit: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...amid=26&type=individual&sort=IPP&sortdir=DESC

Parayko leads our defensemen in every advanced stat 5-on-5.

He also is 3rd in icetime, just passing Gunnar.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/teamstats.php?disp=1&db=201516&sit=5v5&sort=OZPCT&sortdir=DESC

The team as a whole spends more time in the offensive zone than most teams in the league.

Am I reading that right? It looks like that statistic is just further stating that Parayko has more points than any other defenseman. Kind of redundant if that's all it's saying.

 

[RR10*]

Am I reading that right? It looks like that statistic is just further stating that Parayko has more points than any other defenseman. Kind of redundant if that's all it's saying.

Nope. He's 9th in scoring.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

Nope. He's 9th in scoring.

I should have been more clear. I meant specifically on the Blues.

The description of that statistic states that it is the percentage of points scored while the player was on ice that the player had a point on. Maybe I'm just reading that wrong, but it just sounds like it means that Parayko scores more points than any other Blues defenseman. If that is the case, then it just seems redundant.

The goal and assist stats also don't seem to be updated.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

I should have been more clear. I meant specifically on the Blues.

The description of that statistic states that it is the percentage of points scored while the player was on ice that the player had a point on. Maybe I'm just reading that wrong, but it just sounds like it means that Parayko scores more points than any other Blues defenseman. If that is the case, then it just seems redundant.

The goal and assist stats also don't seem to be updated.

I'm not an advanced stats expert, but I see what you mean. Again, small sample size is our culprit. If Parayko had numbers from last year in the NHL, then we might have something to go off of. He doesn't, and so we'll have to wait for things to pan out.

I agree that over a small sample-size, Parayko has been great. However, my idol, Pietragegod would like to point out last year's playoff dominance, as well as all the data dating back to his first full-year as an NHL dman.

 

[taylord22]

I think you're concentrating on one side of the ice a bit too much. Pietrangelo play with puck in the defensive zone is top 3 in the league, IMO. If you take him out of this lineup, our possession numbers plummet.

27:30 TOI, with almost 20 of that coming ES -- against other team's top lines.

What I'm driving at is that we all wish/hope the offense will come, but he really is controlling the game more than you're recognizing. So, so, so many exits and holds executed perfectly. IMO, Duncan Keith is the only dman better at getting the puck out of danger against deep forechecks/extended possession time. Parayko has been fantastic defending the rush, but he has had trouble skirting deep forechecks -- just as Subban did against us last week. Pietrangelo rarely has a SHIFT this year where that's the case, no matter the competition.

You need those offensive d-men that are catalysts on the rush, but it's just as important having a guy that consistently disrupts a cycle and gets the puck out of danger against the other team's best players. Pietrangelo does that for us in flying colors, and he's the only d-man, currently on this team, that's capable of doing so.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

Sorry but he is. It's not only an expectation thing. Parayko has been more noticeable on the ice. And the stats are in his favour:

Parayko
10 games, 7 points (4+3) +8

Pietrangelo
10 games, 4 points (0+4) +1

It's clear to me that Parayko has been the better one so far and it has nothing to do with the expectations. Nobody is saying that Parayko is the better defenseman, he isn't...yet. But he could be.

I can't decide if you're trying to make a serious argument with this ridiculous comparison, or deliberately just tweaking people.

Care to post some quality of opposition comparisons?

 

[Vladys Gumption]

I can't decide if you're trying to make a serious argument with this ridiculous comparison, or deliberately just tweaking people.

Care to post some quality of opposition comparisons?

We should all be absolutely thrilled with the way Parayko has played but I agree that calling him better than Pietrangelo just isn't a reasonable argument. Parayko has outplayed Pietrangelo in the offensive zone, but he's had some hiccups in the defensive zone. Frankly I thought last night was one of his weaker games defensively. He could have gotten burned a few times. Much as I like Parayko's offense, he's not in the same realm as Petro right now in transition. Pietrangelo is on a different planet coming out of the defensive zone and going through the neutral zone.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe Parayko would struggle if given Pietrangelo's assignments. He may get there, and I hope he does, but right now he's not there.

 

[KirkOut]

We should all be absolutely thrilled with the way Parayko but I agree that calling him better than Pietrangelo just isn't a reasonable argument. Parayko has outplayed Pietrangelo in the offensive zone, but he's had some hiccups in the defensive zone. Frankly I thought last night was one of his weaker games defensively. He could have gotten burned a few times. Much as I like Parayko's offense, he's not in the same realm as Petro right now in transition. Pietrangelo is on a different planet coming out of the defensive zone and going through the neutral zone.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe Parayko would struggle if given Pietrangelo's assignments. He may get there, and I hope he does, but right now he's not there.

I'm pretty sure 99% of us agree with this. Unfortunately it looks like we are all incorrect

 

[Ranksu]

Goal wise Parayko is NHL dmen leading scorer. Last time young guy named Alexander Ovechkin shot 10 times in game as a rookie year and last night Parayko did that too. We really do have special guy who could develope true leader on Blues team. IMHO Parayko is true winner compare to Pietro, million times Jbo isn't right pair to Pietro.

Seems that all have to go the hard way before they (Hitch+Army) realize what is best players gem.

 

[Dbrownss]

My god......I'm starting to understand how MO1 gets so irritated.

So Pietrangelo isn't a true leader, even though he was damn near unanimously one of the best players on the ice last year in the playoffs, on a team that gave up. Even wild fans were taken by how well Pietrangelo played.

Boumeester while being a secondary guy has been DAMN good in the dzone, we saw how important he was last year when he was injured. Night and day difference in the defense

Poor Parayko is entering the Mcdavid zone of over hyping a incredible talent and super polite player

 

[MissouriMook]

I don't know if there has been a more polarizing figure on the team the last three years than Petro. It seems everyone either thinks he's been great or that he's been a disappointment. For the people who think he has become something other than what he should be, there are seemingly two subsets - those who are disappointed he isn't the OFD that Karlsson is and those who are disappointed he isn't the rugged defender that Doughty is.

Can I offer a suggestion? Can't he just be Petro? Sure he could stand to work on his shot and his O-zone entries could use a little work, but I'm not sure there are very many defensemen that are better than him below the dots in the offensive zone. The list of guys who get the puck out of the D-zone better than him is pretty short, too. And with the exception of physicality, he is probably a Top 5 defender in the league in all of the other attributes (including vision, patience, escapability, etc.) that you would want in a defender.

Personally, I think pairing him with Bouwmeester is probably not working like we had hoped it would - they are just too much alike. In general, I would love to see a more complimentary structure on our D-corp where Petro was paired with a player more like Shatty or Parayko and let them do the heavy lifting in the O-Zone and have Bouwmeester be the stay-at-home guy for the other.

 

[rumrokh]

I don't know if there has been a more polarizing figure on the team the last three years than Petro. It seems everyone either thinks he's been great or that he's been a disappointment. For the people who think he has become something other than what he should be, there are seemingly two subsets - those who are disappointed he isn't the OFD that Karlsson is and those who are disappointed he isn't the rugged defender that Doughty is.

Can I offer a suggestion? Can't he just be Petro? Sure he could stand to work on his shot and his O-zone entries could use a little work, but I'm not sure there are very many defensemen that are better than him below the dots in the offensive zone. The list of guys who get the puck out of the D-zone better than him is pretty short, too. And with the exception of physicality, he is probably a Top 5 defender in the league in all of the other attributes (including vision, patience, escapability, etc.) that you would want in a defender.

Personally, I think pairing him with Bouwmeester is probably not working like we had hoped it would - they are just too much alike. In general, I would love to see a more complimentary structure on our D-corp where Petro was paired with a player more like Shatty or Parayko and let them do the heavy lifting in the O-Zone and have Bouwmeester be the stay-at-home guy for the other.

Or an all-around guy. They succeeded in the past with Jackman when he was playing well. And the pairing with Lindbohm really let Pietrangelo take charge. Chicago's recent top pairing and Nashville's pairings back when they had guys like Suter and Hamhuis are good examples of a similar approach.

I honestly think it's more likely that they turn the top 4 into Shattenkirk-Pietrangelo & Bouwmeester-Parayko than promoting Edmundson, Gunnarsson, or Lindbohm and/or making a big trade. But will they actually try something like that for long enough to see if it will stick by the time the playoffs arrive?

 

[Celtic Note]

Or an all-around guy. They succeeded in the past with Jackman when he was playing well. And the pairing with Lindbohm really let Pietrangelo take charge. Chicago's recent top pairing and Nashville's pairings back when they had guys like Suter and Hamhuis are good examples of a similar approach.

I honestly think it's more likely that they turn the top 4 into Shattenkirk-Pietrangelo & Bouwmeester-Parayko than promoting Edmundson, Gunnarsson, or Lindbohm and/or making a big trade. But will they actually try something like that for long enough to see if it will stick by the time the playoffs arrive?

They should do that, but will they? Two entirely different things.

 

[Tryblot]

Is Parayko even better in the offensive zone? Pietrangelo makes some of the best pinches and is extremely calm with the puck on his stick with someone coming at him. Sure, Parayko has more points but Pietrangelo is still great in the offensive zone.

 

[HappyGilmore]

Maybe Petro is more assertive when he has a D partner that is actually worse. A common psychological tendency is for people to step down into a lesser role when they perceive someone else in the situation as the leader figure.

 

[KirkOut]

Maybe Petro is more assertive when he has a D partner that is actually worse. A common psychological tendency is for people to step down into a lesser role when they perceive someone else in the situation as the leader figure.

You're makin' a lot of sense here. I see where you're going with this, and I like it. We should trade for Eric Brewer.

 

[HappyGilmore]

You're makin' a lot of sense here. I see where you're going with this, and I like it. We should trade for Eric Brewer.

I never said incompetent defenseman. I meant more of a stay at home, low-key defenseman who can play a sound game defensively. If Drew Doughty had Giordano by his side instead of Jake Muzzin, maybe he doesn't have the same level of assertiveness. Petro was consistently among the top 5 defenseman when he had Colaiacovo playing with him. Ever since JBo came, Petro has played a lot more passively and takes a lot less authority on the ice than before.

You don't have to stretch my interpretation of the situation to absurdity. Ever heard of balance?

 

[KirkOut]

I never said incompetent defenseman. I meant more of a stay at home, low-key defenseman who can play a sound game defensively. If Drew Doughty had Giordano by his side instead of Jake Muzzin, maybe he doesn't have the same level of assertiveness.

You don't have to stretch my interpretation of the situation to absurdity. Ever heard of balance?

You do realize you're talking to the guy who flew his ship the Rocinante into a black hole, and once on the other side stopped an ancient war between heart and mind? Yeah I think I know about balance.

As for your suggestion, yeah I think Brewer would work.

 

[PerryTurnbullfan]

Or an all-around guy. They succeeded in the past with Jackman when he was playing well. And the pairing with Lindbohm really let Pietrangelo take charge. Chicago's recent top pairing and Nashville's pairings back when they had guys like Suter and Hamhuis are good examples of a similar approach.

I honestly think it's more likely that they turn the top 4 into Shattenkirk-Pietrangelo & Bouwmeester-Parayko than promoting Edmundson, Gunnarsson, or Lindbohm and/or making a big trade. But will they actually try something like that for long enough to see if it will stick by the time the playoffs arrive?

I agree that that is probably what they will do, which will lead to an early exit. Let Hitch do it and take Shaw with him. Adios...I hope...finally. Really what needs to happen is putting Petro with a Lindbohm and Shatty with a Jbo/Edmundson and Parayko with a JBo/Edmundson. I'm not sure what Parayko is yet. Still very disappointed he didn't go after the player that hit Tank right after if happened. He needs to send a message quickly that he isn't another Petro. When the real season starts, we could be in trouble.

Mook...I have no issue with Petro being Petro, but what you miss is that he has all the talent and natural ability in the world. You can't teach that. You can make adjustments to that to utilize it even more so. He has the tools to be one of the most talked about defenseman in hockey. We haven't had a more talented defender than Petro EVER. We haven't. He adds some sandpaper to his game. He adds a whack here and there. He creates more space for himself. He doesn't have to drop the gloves. Finish or even make a check. Also, reel in the running around at inoppurtune times. Just lay someone out at the end of a game when it is over ala Pronger. Watch Al MacInnis or Rob Ramage. Watch Duncan Keith. He's more talented than all 3 but he chooses not to be. The best comparable would be Tank refusing to shoot anymore and just pass the puck and play his position. You won't win the Stanley Cup or become/stay elite without upping your game.

 

[AVictoryDive]

I agree that that is probably what they will do, which will lead to an early exit. Let Hitch do it and take Shaw with him. Adios...I hope...finally. Really what needs to happen is putting Petro with a Lindbohm and Shatty with a Jbo/Edmundson and Parayko with a JBo/Edmundson. I'm not sure what Parayko is yet. Still very disappointed he didn't go after the player that hit Tank right after if happened. He needs to send a message quickly that he isn't another Petro. When the real season starts, we could be in trouble.

Mook...I have no issue with Petro being Petro, but what you miss is that he has all the talent and natural ability in the world. You can't teach that. You can make adjustments to that to utilize it even more so. He has the tools to be one of the most talked about defenseman in hockey. We haven't had a more talented defender than Petro EVER. We haven't. He adds some sandpaper to his game. He adds a whack here and there. He creates more space for himself. He doesn't have to drop the gloves. Finish or even make a check. Also, reel in the running around at inoppurtune times. Just lay someone out at the end of a game when it is over ala Pronger. Watch Al MacInnis or Rob Ramage. Watch Duncan Keith. He's more talented than all 3 but he chooses not to be. The best comparable would be Tank refusing to shoot anymore and just pass the puck and play his position. You won't win the Stanley Cup or become/stay elite without upping your game.

This is probably your best point you've made on him instead of calling him a figure skater.

 

[PerryTurnbullfan]

​

This is probably your best point you've made on him instead of calling him a figure skater.

I'm not sure how much hockey you've played. Do you know how miserable it is playing against a dominant player that will turn you inside out vs. one that will let you camp in the crease and just block your shots? Come the 3rd period or even the entire tournament, you may still feel it. How much less effective would a Toews be if you took the oppurtunity to plant him everytime he gave it to you? If Petro or JBo takes a Toews out of the play, then what? Their best player is out of the play...That's good. If Petro and Toews shove, neither goes or they both do. Ott shoves Toews, Ott goes....Think about it.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

You do realize you're talking to the guy who flew his ship the Rocinante into a black hole, and once on the other side stopped an ancient war between heart and mind? Yeah I think I know about balance.

As for your suggestion, yeah I think Brewer would work.

I got this reference. In fact I know both authors to some degree. Can't wait for the December premiere.

 

[542365]

​

I'm not sure how much hockey you've played. Do you know how miserable it is playing against a dominant player that will turn you inside out vs. one that will let you camp in the crease and just block your shots? Come the 3rd period or even the entire tournament, you may still feel it. How much less effective would a Toews be if you took the oppurtunity to plant him everytime he gave it to you? If Petro or JBo takes a Toews out of the play, then what? Their best player is out of the play...That's good. If Petro and Toews shove, neither goes or they both do. Ott shoves Toews, Ott goes....Think about it.

I've played plenty of hockey and it's far tougher to play against a guy that can hold the puck as long as he wants than someone that will run you into the boards every now and then. Toughness loses hockey games. This has been proven over and over again and yet there are still people that believe you need it to win. It's total *********. You need skill to win. Notice what the Hawks are doing, shedding useless toughness for more skill. Notice they keep winning. **** guys like Bollig, Rosival, Bickell, Rosival. They are useless. Guys like Kane, Toews, Hossa, Panarin, Keith etc win hockey games. They just ice the others to give their useful players a rest.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

I've played plenty of hockey and it's far tougher to play against a guy that can hold the puck as long as he wants than someone that will run you into the boards every now and then. Toughness loses hockey games. This has been proven over and over again and yet there are still people that believe you need it to win. It's total *********. You need skill to win. Notice what the Hawks are doing, shedding useless toughness for more skill. Notice they keep winning. **** guys like Bollig, Rosival, Bickell, Rosival. They are useless. Guys like Kane, Toews, Hossa, Panarin, Keith etc win hockey games. They just ice the others to give their useful players a rest.

I wouldn't go so far as to say grit and toughness are totally useless. It is nice to have some players than can offer it. The problem comes from idiot GM's like Burke that are obssessed with and seek it out at the expense of skill. A guy that combines toughness and skill can be an asset.

Regardless, grit has never been, nor will it ever be what makes Pietrangelo successful. In actuality, we've seen it negatively affect his game. I distinctly remember him stepping up more in terms of throwing hits last year during his rough start. When he's at his best physicality is not a part of his game, and that's ok because his puck retrieval and transition game makes it an non-issue.

 

[rumrokh]

Really what needs to happen is putting Petro with a Lindbohm and Shatty with a Jbo/Edmundson and Parayko with a JBo/Edmundson.

During the regular season, maybe, but in the playoffs, this does nothing for you. I'm going to tire some people out with this one but I'm going to keep repeating it until it sinks in: you need a clear top-4 of big-minute defensemen to lean on in the playoffs. Spreading the wealth and rolling three pairs might get you out of the first round against a weaker opponent, but, for the most part, you still need two pairs playing at least 45 minutes of the game. And it can't just be 30 minutes for your top pair and about fifteen each for the bottom 4 guys. You need to count on that second pair for 22+ minutes.