Pick a duo for 5 years - Gretzky/Hasek or Lemieux/Orr

[KoozNetsOff 92]

"Gretzky never won a cup after leaving Edmonton". Yes but he made the SCF.

Lemieux never passed the 2nd round without Jagr.

 

[wetcoast]

Gretzky and Hasek, no hesitation.

A 200+ point scorer + a ~.930 SV% goalie on the same time? That's 3 guaranteed Cups in a 5 year span tbh

But wait apparently Mario is equal to Gretzky with seasons of
168
199
123
45
131 points

Also don't forget Gretzky only had 196 points in one of those seasons.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

But wait apparently Mario is equal to Gretzky with seasons of
168
199
123
45
131 points

Also don't forget Gretzky only had 196 points in one of those seasons.

If they had switched teams I could have seen Mario outscore Gretzky.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Very easily Orr and Lemieux.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

If they had switched teams I could have seen Mario outscore Gretzky.

Only way Mario ever beats Gretzky is with ifs.

 

[bobholly39]

"Gretzky never won a cup after leaving Edmonton". Yes but he made the SCF.

Lemieux never passed the 2nd round without Jagr.

Both statements are equally as dumb.

But wait apparently Mario is equal to Gretzky with seasons of
168
199
123
45
131 points

Also don't forget Gretzky only had 196 points in one of those seasons.

Good thing I have faith that a team with Orr and a Lemieux who only plays 26 regular season games could still make the playoffs.
Once in playoffs - where it counts - they both play at full strength.

Isn't that what counts?

 

[Video Nasty]

Career PPG virtually the same. .038 difference. Not bad for a guy that had health issues. Can’t believe Bossy is 3rd on the list. Did not expect to see that.

1.	Wayne Gretzky*	1979-99	1.921
2.	Mario Lemieux*	1984-06	1.883
3.	Mike Bossy*	1977-87	1.497
4.	Bobby Orr*	1966-79	1.393

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Big difference is Gretzky had the complete career arc. He played 572 more games than Lemieux and beat him to every significant point milestone there is. Plenty of time for that PPG to get lowered because he played the games.

Gretzky had 2,119 points after 915 games. Lemieux had 1,723 points after 915 games.

2.32 ppg vs 1.88. A huge gap. Gretzky also beat him to every significant point milestone along the way (quickest to 200, 300 and so on; First and second quickest to 1000 points).

Another way to look at it is that Gretzky scored point 1,724 in just 721 games (2.39 ppg).

If Gretzky finished his career with just his Edmonton years (1669 points in 696 games, 2.40 ppg) or with the same number of games played as Lemieux, it wouldn’t be pretty and it wouldn’t look close at all.

Gretzky had his own health issues that are overlooked because he already blew the doors off the league and shattered practically every record there is with them. With complete health, his numbers would be even sillier than they already are.

It’s uncomfortable for the Lemieux apologists to think that there are what ifs even with Gretzky, who with or without them, beats Lemieux every time regardless.

 

[wabagee]

Gretzky and Roy VS Lemieux and Hasek would be a bloodbath! Took me four times for my autocorrect to get Hasek right.

 

[wetcoast]

Both statements are equally as dumb.



Good thing I have faith that a team with Orr and a Lemieux who only plays 26 regular season games could still make the playoffs.
Once in playoffs - where it counts - they both play at full strength.

Isn't that what counts?

Well look at the playoffs then Grtezky leads the NHL in scoring for 3 straight years and is an ESGF/ESGA monster, Mario still pales in comparison to him there.

Hasek also was awesome in the playoffs in his 5 year stretch given the team in front of him and Orr's best playoff season isn't even in his 5 year sample most people are taking here.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Both statements are equally as dumb.



Good thing I have faith that a team with Orr and a Lemieux who only plays 26 regular season games could still make the playoffs.
Once in playoffs - where it counts - they both play at full strength.

Isn't that what counts?

I know

 

[Bluesguru]

Big difference is Gretzky had the complete career arc. He played 572 more games than Lemieux and beat him to every significant point milestone there is. Plenty of time for that PPG to get lowered because he played the games.

Gretzky had 2,119 points after 915 games. Lemieux had 1,723 points after 915 games.

2.32 ppg vs 1.88. A huge gap. Gretzky also beat him to every significant point milestone along the way (quickest to 200, 300 and so on; First and second quickest to 1000 points).

Another way to look at it is that Gretzky scored point 1,724 in just 721 games (2.39 ppg).

If Gretzky finished his career with just his Edmonton years (1669 points in 696 games, 2.40 ppg) or with the same number of games played as Lemieux, it wouldn’t be pretty and it wouldn’t look close at all.

Gretzky had his own health issues that are overlooked because he already blew the doors off the league and shattered practically every record there is with them. With complete health, his numbers would be even sillier than they already are.

It’s uncomfortable for the Lemieux apologists to think that there are what ifs even with Gretzky, who with or without them, beats Lemieux every time regardless.

Not really fair to compare 915 games of Lemieux which was his whole career, including a 4 year layoff to Gretzky’s 915. Plus Gretz did average 2.4 PPG in his 9 years with Edmonton. You don’t think Lemieux would rival that number playing with that team? Not declaring Lemieux is the greatest ever, but with that size and wingspan I could see why if someone had a choice between the 2 they would opt for Mario to lead their team.

 

[McVespa99]

This one is easy. Orr tips the scales if 99 and 66 cancel each other out. Orr was the best hockey player to ever lace them up when he was healthy. No one dominated a game like him. I am sure we will never see another player like him.

There was this kid name Gretz that had more assists in his career than any other player had points. Scored 200 points a year often. Holds 50 or 60 league records. Ever heard of him?

 

[bobholly39]

Well look at the playoffs then Grtezky leads the NHL in scoring for 3 straight years and is an ESGF/ESGA monster, Mario still pales in comparison to him there.

Hasek also was awesome in the playoffs in his 5 year stretch given the team in front of him and Orr's best playoff season isn't even in his 5 year sample most people are taking here.

Well the idea is you pick each player's best 5 seasons, so you should probably pick Orr when he was at best in the playoffs. Whether you just pick peak Orr and assume he does good in playoffs, or pick his actual playoff year run he did best in, comes out to the same.

I agree Gretzky is the best in playoffs. But Lemieux isn't far behind, Orr too. I think Hasek is the clear last for playoffs.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

There was this kid name Gretz that had more assists in his career than any other player had points. Scored 200 points a year often. Holds 50 or 60 league records. Ever heard of him?

Bobby Orr had 139 points in 78 games and was +124 one year, as a Defencemen not a fwd. He dominated and revolutionized the Defence position.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Bobby Orr had 139 points in 78 games and was +124 one year, as a Defencemen not a fwd. He dominated and revolutionized the Defence position.

Yeah, Orr’s not that far behind Gretzky imo.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yeah, Orr’s not that far behind Gretzky imo.

No one can match Gretzky's stats. If this was a stats discussion, there would be little purpose to having this thread. It is truly unfortunate that not everyone saw Orr play in his prime. He once killed a PIM by ragging the puck for close to a minute. That's how dominating he was. The other team could not touch him. He also was a hell of a competitor. These are all great players. Stats back them all up. To separate this, we all have to go back to what we saw what they did in their primes. Not career stats. If that were the case, the 99 in NY would not be as impressive. I am judging these 4 players all at their prime. Orr to me was the single most dominating player when he was at his best. To give an idea how great he was, he routinely makes the top of Boston's all time athletes lists. A hockey player who had a relatively short career over 40 years ago.

 

[Video Nasty]

Not really fair to compare 915 games of Lemieux which was his whole career, including a 4 year layoff to Gretzky’s 915. Plus Gretz did average 2.4 PPG in his 9 years with Edmonton. You don’t think Lemieux would rival that number playing with that team? Not declaring Lemieux is the greatest ever, but with that size and wingspan I could see why if someone had a choice between the 2 they would opt for Mario to lead their team.

Fair enough. Let’s look at something interesting.

Let’s remove the first 572 games of Gretzky’s career, which leaves him with 915 games starting with his 141 points in the remaining 60 games of his age 26 season, 1986-1987.

Which means he has a career of 1.75 seasons with the Oilers and then the rest of his career with the Kings, Blues and Rangers.

Gretzky under this scenario, starts his career during his age 26 season through age 38 (suffering his back injury in the process), spends most of it off the powerhouse Oilers (you know, the guys he doubled up on in points commonly) and finishes with 1465 points in 915 games, 1.60 ppg.

So I had to severely handicap and take away all of Gretzky’s best seasons to allow Lemieux into the conversation at all.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

A goalie has a very limited impact on the game

You know we're uh, talking about Hasek here... right?

Gretzky and Hasek, no hesitation.

A 200+ point scorer + a ~.930 SV% goalie on the same time? That's 3 guaranteed Cups in a 5 year span tbh

Looking at it over a season, that is about 2.5 goals a game on average for Gretzky alone (not including other lines, line mates scoring anything without him), PLUS a goalie whose Sv% only dipped below .930 once in the five year span (.920%) and had a season with a .937%.

So 2.5+ goals for every game with a goalie who needs to face around 43 shots to let in 3 goals, and lets in 2.03 - 2.52 goals when facing an average number of shots (29 - 36).

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

No one can match Gretzky's stats. If this was a stats discussion, there would be little purpose to having this thread. It is truly unfortunate that not everyone saw Orr play in his prime. He once killed a PIM by ragging the puck for close to a minute. That's how dominating he was. The other team could not touch him. He also was a hell of a competitor. These are all great players. Stats back them all up. To separate this, we all have to go back to what we saw what they did in their primes. Not career stats. If that were the case, the 99 in NY would not be as impressive. I am judging these 4 players all at their prime. Orr to me was the single most dominating player when he was at his best. To give an idea how great he was, he routinely makes the top of Boston's all time athletes lists. A hockey player who had a relatively short career over 40 years ago.

He should make those lists. He’s arguably the second greatest hockey player of all-time.

 

[wetcoast]

Well the idea is you pick each player's best 5 seasons, so you should probably pick Orr when he was at best in the playoffs.

69-70 14-9-11-20 plus 24 and after his probable partner Don Awrey who had a plus 19 the next best guy was plus 13 They win the SC
74-75 3-1-5-6 plus 7 but they lose in the first round as the rest of the team faltered.

Whether you just pick peak Orr and assume he does good in playoffs, or pick his actual playoff year run he did best in, comes out to the same.

No actually not as 2 of his best 3 playoff performances were 6 years apart, you get to pick one 69-70 or 74-75 and both years he won the Art Ross as well so one of his best 2 years overall is out the window.

I agree Gretzky is the best in playoffs. But Lemieux isn't far behind, Orr too. I think Hasek is the clear last for playoffs.

Mario is far behind, just go look at the stats, heck Mario only gets into the actual playoffs in 3 of the 5 years most would pick and like
I said before he simply doesn't tilt the ice for 200 feet in any way shape or form Wayne did in his 5 years.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

He should make those lists. He’s arguably the second greatest hockey player of all-time.

Nothing wrong being #2 to Mr. Hockey, Gordie Howe.

 

[LongWayDown37]

I'll take whatever combination of these 4 players that includes Hasek - that's the guy who is going to win on his own. Attaching another all time great will be truly dominant.

 

[bobholly39]

I'll take whatever combination of these 4 players that includes Hasek - that's the guy who is going to win on his own. Attaching another all time great will be truly dominant.

Agreed. The guy who never won a conn smythe and who didnt win a cup in his prime is the one whose going to win on his own.

 

[bobholly39]

69-70 14-9-11-20 plus 24 and after his probable partner Don Awrey who had a plus 19 the next best guy was plus 13 They win the SC
74-75 3-1-5-6 plus 7 but they lose in the first round as the rest of the team faltered.




No actually not as 2 of his best 3 playoff performances were 6 years apart, you get to pick one 69-70 or 74-75 and both years he won the Art Ross as well so one of his best 2 years overall is out the window.



Mario is far behind, just go look at the stats, heck Mario only gets into the actual playoffs in 3 of the 5 years most would pick and like
I said before he simply doesn't tilt the ice for 200 feet in any way shape or form Wayne did in his 5 years.

In what universe is a 3 game sample size in 74-75 Orr's second best playoff run? You don't think he did better in 1972, when he won a smythe thanks to a performance of 24 points and + 20 in 15 games?

Again though - you pick a player, you get him for 5 years. We're not copy/pasting his stats. You get him for 5 years with the other player (in Orr's case - Mario) I identified, and whatever happens happens. Just because in reality in 1975 Orr happened to only play 3 playoff games, doesn't mean that w/Mario he doesn't maybe do a lot better. That's the idea of this thread, speculation as to which duo works out better over the 5 year stretch.

Would love to hear how Hasek tilts the ice 200ft better than Mario does. I've always found the expression "tilts the ice" to be much to do about nothing. If we're talking about playoffs - i'd argue Mario's best 5 year stretch is superior to Orr's, and certainly to Hasek's (by a lot).

I really feel like I'm wasting my time arguing with you. Pretty sure I remember in the past you saying Crosby is better than Lemieux. Some outrageous undervaluing of some players are probably better left alone.

 

[wetcoast]

Agreed. The guy who never won a conn smythe and who didnt win a cup in his prime is the one whose going to win on his own.

Sure we all know Mario, Wayne and Bobby would have had a dynasty with the late 90 Sabers right?