The development has nothing to do with the sale tax revenue generated from the businesses inside of Westgate. You are mixing apples with oranges in terms of how the CoG sees a vested interest in keeping the Coyotes as part of the health of the Westgate development in order to generate the sale tax revenue the city needs.
Phoenix XXXIX: You Never Give Me Your Money
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The development has nothing to do with the sale tax revenue generated from the businesses inside of Westgate. You are mixing apples with oranges in terms of how the CoG sees a vested interest in keeping the Coyotes as part of the health of the Westgate development in order to generate the sale tax revenue the city needs.
Actually it does make a difference when you have 20 office spaces empty. Think of all that tax potential they are missing out on. That's a lot.
The CoG has said that if the Coyotes leave Westgate will fall apart. It's already fallen apart even with the Coyotes currently situated in Westgate.
The fallen apart is due to lack of revenue streams ie; 20 open office spaces. This is already proving there isn't a lot of traffic going to Westgate. If there was the all office spaces would be filled with businesses and such which is not the case.
TheLegend
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As goyotes said.... apples and oranges.
There's a huge difference between offices that pay rent to a developer, and retail businesses that generate rent for the developer AND sales tax income for the city.
The office space construction came later in the project at the time the economy began to tank. Before that the focus was on getting the retail arm started, followed by the housing arm. IMO.... failure to get a retail anchor built has hurt Westgate more than the Coyotes situation because a retail anchor draws 365 days a year against 41 days (plus any playoff nights).
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
You got a link that says that? Or is this just some speculation?
The freeway next to Westgate (Loop 101) is undergoing an expansion (car pool lanes). The southbound side is actually completed and open.
AllByDesign
Who's this ABD guy??
Jets at Coyotes... I remember Killion quite often mentioning while passing yourself in time not to look directly into your eyes... This may come to pass I recon... 
Killion
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Jets at Coyotes... I remember Killion quite often mentioning while passing yourself in time not to look directly into your eyes... This may come to pass I recon...
Thatd' be Jack Handy I swiped that one from ABD. And ya, I can see how thats appropriate to the Jets meeting the Coyotes. "If you find yourself travelling through the future & you see some guy flying by going into the past, its probably best not to make eye contact". So whats Shane Doan gonna do?. Wear a smoked out visor like Alex ("so the hot chicks in the crowd cant tell Im staring at them") Ovechkin?...
Bingo....
I believe that the economic impact of the Coyotes on the Westgate Center and vice-versa has been overplayed in the past. Nothing could illustrate this better than the completely unrealistic plans for a Westgate-based CFD to support Coyotes losses. If the City of Glendale wanted to preserve Westgate, they would do better to provide a subsidy to a major retail anchor to locate to Westgate, rather than doing so indirectly with huge subsidies to the Coyotes.
Retaining the Coyotes helps Westgate, but it is about much more than that. It relates to the reputation of the City, quality of life, and the long-term financial liability of the Jobing.com. Tying the Coyotes fate to that of Westgate has always struck me as being a bit of a smokescreen. A retail enterprise of that size could never subsidize a struggling NHL franchise, and the promise of patronage by a portion of a hockey crowd on less than 15% of the available retail days is not enough to be an engine for a retail enterprise.
But the current financial status of Westgate could pose political problems for Glendale's city council. They have consistently touted the Coyotes' preservation as critical for the economic well-being of Westgate, etc. Now, critics will understandably point out that Westgate floundered with the Coyotes, making it more difficult for Glendale to justify large subsidies for the Coyotes on the basis of the positive benefit to the local businesses.
Whileee,
You've nailed it on the head. It's what I've been saying all along even when the CFD was presented. Westgate has faiiled even with the Coyotes still there and therefore the COG can no longer say Westgate will fail if the Coyotes leave.
Even potential businesses are not wanting part of the Westgate zone. 20 office spaces that could be used for retail is left standing. It's been that way for a few years now.
As for the light rail, the same excuse will still happen with how far it is to get to Westgate. Sure it may shave some time down but you still have people who have to get to the light rail pick up zones.
The only thing I can see light rail doing is improving the amount of people going to Westgate on the weekends who do not drive.
You've nailed it on the head. It's what I've been saying all along even when the CFD was presented. Westgate has faiiled even with the Coyotes still there and therefore the COG can no longer say Westgate will fail if the Coyotes leave.
Even potential businesses are not wanting part of the Westgate zone. 20 office spaces that could be used for retail is left standing. It's been that way for a few years now.
As for the light rail, the same excuse will still happen with how far it is to get to Westgate. Sure it may shave some time down but you still have people who have to get to the light rail pick up zones.
The only thing I can see light rail doing is improving the amount of people going to Westgate on the weekends who do not drive.
MaskedSonja
Registered User
my .14 cents
I think at this point, as far as the sale of the team, Westgate (IMO) may not even being brought up as an issue. It is what it is with Westgate. The sale of the team is independent of that-now maybe when the team gets sold, if there gets to be a solid foundation people coming to the game, maybe Westgate starts getting busy again-but for now it's simply about the team and the arena. Westgate either will or won't be active again with the team-but it's IMO a non issue now.
I think at this point, as far as the sale of the team, Westgate (IMO) may not even being brought up as an issue. It is what it is with Westgate. The sale of the team is independent of that-now maybe when the team gets sold, if there gets to be a solid foundation people coming to the game, maybe Westgate starts getting busy again-but for now it's simply about the team and the arena. Westgate either will or won't be active again with the team-but it's IMO a non issue now.
Killion
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Clearly thats one of if not the biggest problems facing Westgate; lack of an Anchor ('s) Tenant to draw regular visitors 365. Usually developers in contemplating destination shopping malls of this magnitude will have secured at minimum one if not 2 anchors rather than just building & hoping they'll come. The undeveloped vacant land around Westgate, specifically a parcel just west of it was being looked at by Tanger Factory Outlets in May, contemplating a 400,000 square foot adjoining mall with app. 90 stores (Adidas, Abercrombie & Fitch etc discount stores). With Ellman having fallen into Foreclosure, my understanding of the situation is that Credit Suisse seized that parcel of land & plan to hold an auction for it. Its possible Tanger could be awaiting that sale; also possible theyve' decided to continue looking elsewhere in the Phoenix area altogether. Plans for portions of the app. 263 acres comprising Westgate were indeed earmarked for anchors however when the economy went south....
Devry Institute of Technology setup a campus at Westgate proper, leasing what was supposed to have been retail space along with some commercial space specific, steering the initial concept of a "Boutique Shopping / Sports & Entertainment Destination" combining the UofP Stadium & Glendale Arena with mixed commercial somewhat off-track out of desperation. Ellman of course fell way behind schedule in being able to attract further investments from the majors in establishing anchors adjacent to & around Westgate due in large part to the housing meltdown & credit crunch / sluggish retail sector as a result of the reccession however, overall, Glendale in general boasts a pretty good commercial leasing to vacancy ratio in comparison to downtown Phoenix & elsewhere. Its important to remember that Westgate Mall itself was not conceived to house anchors with 10's of 1000's of sq ft. Strictly boutique / restaurant with office space in the immediate areas of the UofP Stadium & Glendale Arena. Foot traffic.
Taken on its own, no, Westgate Mall itself could never have provided enough in CFD revenues to fully subsidize the Coyotes (though even a modest luxury tax bringing $5-10M per annum to do just that would not only be helpful but so too is very doable & not some crazy pipe dream), and that was never the plan. The mall was supposed to be (and is) a conglomeration of small specialty retailers, independents & restaurants (along with AMC Theaters). It was/is the surrounding lands that were/are allocated to the big boxes' & anchors. Just north of Westgate plans exist for a development called Sportsmans Park, single family homes, a golf course, the whole 9 yards. When all of this was laid out, Phoenix was one of the fastest growing muni's in the US. I dont think it very difficult if anyone has even an ounce of empathy to sympathize with Glendale's predicament & wish them well in lucking out, getting this thing back on the rails....
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Less than 1000 tickets left for the opener. I think we fall short of a sellout by about 500. Building holds 17,100. Probably 16,500 in attendance. Disappointing. Come on down Peggers. Play some golf, leave with a sun tan (your only chance to get one for about 8 months), and see a great hockey game.
Looking for flights to and from Winnipeg, I see no direct flights anyway. One has to fly through a city to get to Phoenix directly like Edmonton. I do believe that last minute seats are available.
Interesting, Westjet used to fly direct, not this year it looks like. I guess they're focusing more on Mexico and the Carribean this year.
And Alegiant out of Grand Forks doesn't have a flight today or tomorrow, so it would be a transfer or hope for room on one of the charters.
dronald
Registered User
Huh? You take hockey all too seriously, IMO. Opposition fans are a fact of life in a vacation destination like Phoenix, particularly where there where there aren't multiple generations of hockey play.
As long as they don't start screaming Go Jets Go on the golf course, who really cares? It's not like the team is a rival, like the Sharks, or a roadblock, like the Wings. The game will not turn on the amount of rival fans in the arena.
Much as I hate the Wings, there is a consensus, in my section at least, that the Buffalo fans are the most obnoxious and get into the most trouble with security.
You got a link that says that? Or is this just some speculation?
The freeway next to Westgate (Loop 101) is undergoing an expansion (car pool lanes). The southbound side is actually completed and open.
When a one line post starts with, I guess. It means speculation, I'd say.Reinsdorf's first MOU was pretty breathtaking in terms of expectation from the CFD... $65 million towards the purchase price and $97 million towards losses over 5 years. How the COG could have considered this as a serious plan is beyond me. Where was all of that CFD revenue meant to come from? It sort of makes me wonder what the real play was in that proposal.
I think that in order to understand the history of lease negotiations involving ownership groups and Glendale it helps to realize that for the owners it is all about finances, and for Glendale it is about much more than that. This puts Glendale at a disadvantage, because keeping the Coyotes is about more than just dollars and cents... it is about reputation as well.
Killion
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Yes, but Whileee, were well past that nonsense. The COG has shown their true colors. They make promises with their mouths that their ***** cant cash. No follow through on their swings.They hit the ball alright, trouble is, all fouls. For Home Run Kings like Reinsdorf & Jamison nothing is more frustrating to watch much less deal with. Glendales been Benched. No longer in the Rotation. Terms & financing is in the hands of Pro's. The prospective owners & the NHL.
John Shannon implied, in a recent interview, that J.R. was waiting in the wings to buy the Coyotes if no one else does.
My read on the situation...
He does not want the team but will step in, if need be, to save the team.
My read on the situation...
He does not want the team but will step in, if need be, to save the team.
Hmm I interpret that to mean, when you can't sell it and are ready to give it to someone, look me up.
I agree. If/When he gets the team it will be for next to nothing.
Too bad. Would love to see the team in Quebec City.
That will never happen, the governors wont let the NHL post a loss with the Coyotes.
They'll relocate them before selling them for less then it cost them to operate the franchise.
cbcwpg
Registered User
I agree. There was no way the BoG was going to lose money on buying the Coyotes just to keep it from Basillie. The NHL did it, because Bettman always had Winnipeg in his back pocket with $170M ( or there abouts ), and now even potentially Quebec or someone else. Either way they won't be losing money.
Heck, worse case the NHL can hold thier own auction and say, "Team for sale, can move it to wherever you want" and open it up to the highest bidder.
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