Phoenix XXXIII: Sound of Silence

[peter sullivan]

My posts have been spot on. ESPECIALLY the parking garage money. What an odd one to single out. Unlike most others, I was actually able to read the extension agreement and identify the consideration of the escrow money coming back to the COG - which they then used to cut yet another development deal with Ellman.
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nope....you obviously dont remember your arguments regarding the parking garage money and the loss covering escrow account....do a little searchiepoo and get back to me.

.....just as you dont seem to remember your assertions about 'how businessmen to business' with JR and any number of false assumptions you made about how the IEH thing would unfold....

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Even the governors don't get it sometimes. IMO where a team is from has nothing to do with it being a poor draw on a Tuesday night. Its all about how good that team is. Hockey fans everywhere want to see good hockey. This governor is assuming just because a team is in a small Canadian market it will always be a poor team talent wise.

Disagree - while it's not the only criteria, a team's location does play a role in how well they draw on the road. If it wasn't, the visiting second-place-at-the-time Kings wouldn't have been a "value game" here in Ottawa back in November.

 

[Royale With Cheese]

“To be truthful, we hate to lose a big market like Phoenix. That's it in a nutshell.†That governor also said it would be hard to sell a team from a small Canadian city, like Winnipeg, to fans in his market, “especially on Tuesday and Wednesday nights.â€

Hmmm, so I guess we can infer that a Tuesday night game in January between Phoenix and Columbus is a TV ratings gem, right?

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

I would guess that governor is part of a team that:

1) isn't a Canadian team
2) isn't an Original Six team
3) isn't from a traditional hockey market (ie. New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Buffalo or Minnesota) where every game sells out regardless of opponent.
4) isn't a team accessible by Sunbirds (ie. Florida)

 

[throatguzzler]

I'm not sure a relocation to Winnipeg is such a great idea. I don't know.. it seems like moving from a metro of 5 million people to one with 700K is more of a downgrade than an improvement. As a business, the NHL needs to think long-term. What decision would best benefit the league 5, 10 years from now. Yeah, the NHL could play it safe and move to a dedicated small hockey city, or it can be ambitious and try a market 7-10 times as large and see if it works there. I believe Houston, Seattle, and Kansas City all should be considered before a safe, but not as profitable in the long term city such as Winnipeg is. Winnipeg should be last resort IMO, it seems like more of a safety net than an ambitious and progressive investment. Just my two cents.

 

[davemac1313]

Afraid to lose the Phoenix TV market.....not sure that is a valid argument

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2011/04/tv-ratings-coyotes-struggle-suns-shine.html

 

[Roadrage]

But this really isn't about Canada versus the US, or Canada versus the Sunbelt, no matter how much the Canadian media tries to portray it that way.

This is about the league doing everything in its power to stabilize an existing market before exploring relocation as an option. That's all. Take the nationalism out of it, because it has nothing to do with it.
Now, you can say that they league didn't take this stance strongly enough in the 90s when Winnipeg, QC, Hartford, and Minnesota moved. And I'd agree with you. But two wrongs don't make a right. They should have stuck by their existing markets then, and it's still the right thing to do now. What happened in the 90s is a long time ago now. You have to admit that the NHL, for the last decade or so, has been pretty strong and consistent about its policy of trying to stabilize existing markets when they run into trouble (Pittsburgh, Edmonton, Nashville, Buffalo, Ottawa, etc.). No matter where those markets are located, traditional or non-traditional, small market or large market.

I hope the NHL tries half as hard when it is time to focus on the Thrashers situation.

 

[PitbulI]

In the 80's and 90's. A team losing this much money would have been long since relocated to a more stable market.

With the issues going on in the US and the NHL being number 4 in terms of sport popularity in the US, The NHL really needs to stabalize the league first.

Yes, Winnipeg is a small market team but bringing Thomson into the NHL fold could do wonders for the league.

Pheonix is a large market. But a market for what? Football is number 1, baseball is number 2 and those sports draw way more in a season than what the Coyotes bring in. Then you have NBA which also does so so but again, more people watch baseketball than hockey. There just aren't enough snowbirds for hockey in Arizona. Besides, some of those snowbirds don't want to be reminded of winter sports anyways.

But as has been said many times, the NHL doesn't want to lose the Pheonix market. I feel the NHL will cave and MH will get a team at bargain price and the COG can have very little financial damage happen as well.

But, to put this into perspective. The NHL bought the team for 140 right? Lost 30 million in the first year and possibly 40 million this season and haven't taken a dime from the COG fund? Yeah, this all sounds fishy. NHL will cave.

 

[davemac1313]

I'm not sure a relocation to Winnipeg is such a great idea. I don't know.. it seems like moving from a metro of 5 million people to one with 700K is more of a downgrade than an improvement. As a business, the NHL needs to think long-term. What decision would best benefit the league 5, 10 years from now. Yeah, the NHL could play it safe and move to a dedicated small hockey city, or it can be ambitious and try a market 7-10 times as large and see if it works there. I believe Houston, Seattle, and Kansas City all should be considered before a safe, but not as profitable in the long term city such as Winnipeg is. Winnipeg should be last resort IMO, it seems like more of a safety net than an ambitious and progressive investment. Just my two cents.

You know the coyotes have been in Phoenix for 15 years right....

The three cities mentioned might very likely be good markets, however, they are not prepared with ownership groups that I am aware of in any of those cities. Short of KC, not sure if the arenas existing meet NHL criteria. What market studies exist that show any of those cities would be supportive? You can't simply drop a team in because of population or market potential, mistakes appear to cost owners 25-40 million per season these days, a hugely wealthy owner and a really viable business plan would be needed. If those markets don't work, its hardly progressive for the league. Population alone can influence success, but a hard fan base is the key to a progressive and ambitious plan. Which of those cities has all the puzzle pieces?

17000 in attendance Monday and 28000 watching at home for the playoff game in Phoenix, does not speak to success in that market, the TV is not too far to drive to is it? Population needs to have interest in the product, would like to see NHL ratings for Seattle, KC and Houston, vs Winnipeg, all cities with no teams, to determine what is a good fan base to build from, to ensure success and be an asset to the league that would allow it to grow the product.

 

[Twine Seeking Missle]

I'm not sure a relocation to Winnipeg is such a great idea. I don't know.. it seems like moving from a metro of 5 million people to one with 700K is more of a downgrade than an improvement. As a business, the NHL needs to think long-term. What decision would best benefit the league 5, 10 years from now. Yeah, the NHL could play it safe and move to a dedicated small hockey city, or it can be ambitious and try a market 7-10 times as large and see if it works there. I believe Houston, Seattle, and Kansas City all should be considered before a safe, but not as profitable in the long term city such as Winnipeg is. Winnipeg should be last resort IMO, it seems like more of a safety net than an ambitious and progressive investment. Just my two cents.

Just for arguments sake (trust me I am making up these numbers but they COULD be a representation, a rough one at that, of what we are dealing with here.)

Phoenix/Glendale - Population - 5,000,000.
Winnipeg - Population - 700,000.

Phoenix/Glendale - 40-50k die hard hockey fans
Winnipeg - 250-300k die hard hockey fans

It's not always about the sheer numbers but about what works in what market. You have a lot less people in Winnipeg but you also have a lot more hockey fans. This is not a slight to the true hockey fan in Phoenix as I am sure there are many of them. Hockey in Phoenix is a fun distraction (for most). Hockey in Winnipeg is a way of life. There's no way of getting around that.

My point is, just because a city has a large population doesn't mean they will embrace everything thrown at them. I live in NY, about 30 minutes from the most populated city this side of the planet. If they decided to put a cricket stadium smack in the middle of Manhattan, I guarantee the place would be empty every night. Yes I know that was a gross exaggeration (comparing cricket to hockey) but it's the first hypothetical that came to mind.

 

[rj]

If the Coyotes do leave, and Phoenix is such a desirable market, then what prevents the NHL from putting another struggling team there, with a great lease and a low purchase / relocation price? Shoalts cites governors as saying that they prefer to lose Atlanta than Phoenix. Might they consider Atlanta to Phoenix, maybe even with Hulsizer taking the reins? Or perhaps they could get TNSE to purchase the Thrashers for a lower price, get a relocation fee from TNSE, and use those funds to ease the deal in Phoenix.

For some reason, I still think that the NHL prefers to save Phoenix, and might try to find a creative way to do so, perhaps at the expense of Atlanta. Anyway, just some wild speculation...

Honest question: why is Phoenix superior to Atlanta?

 

[BuffaloAZ]

fixed

Fair enough! Look, I am all for Winnipeg getting another team. I was interviewed by Paul Friesen a few weeks back prior to a Coyotes game; I went 'on the record' giving my support for Winniepg to get a team...Just not the Coyotes!!

 

[Steve Passless*]

As a business, the NHL needs to think long-term. What decision would best benefit the league 5, 10 years from now.

This is what they said 15 years ago and it didn't do them any good. Tell me, how many more years do we have to wait for these people to support the NHL on a sustainable level? This is getting absurd.

 

[rj]

I only skimmed the article, but I didn't see anything to suggest that moving the Thrashers "would be fine". That said, if there was less resistance to the notion of relocating Atlanta, could it be because Atlanta is considered to have sufficient proximity to and socioeconomic homogeneity with nearby NHL towns (ie. Nashville and Tampa, maybe Florida) that Phoenix doesn't have with its nearby teams (ie. Los Angeles)?

No. The only team that can sufficiently claim pan-regional pride in the South are the Braves (and the Redskins once upon a time). Few people in the South outside of Tennessee would care about the Predators (I'm sure a few people in western N.C. and northern Alabama do now just due to their proximity).

 

[rj]

Winnipeg should be last resort IMO, it seems like more of a safety net than an ambitious and progressive investment.

It is the last resort now. That's why we're here after 2 years of this

 

[Roadrage]

Game 4 tonight and a looming showdown between CoG and GWI tomorrow afternoon. Yet MH won't attend game 4 either according to FoxSportsArizona article.

http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/04/...-here/landing.html?blockID=507085&feedID=3801

Since reports of an imminent move to Winnipeg surfaced last week in various Canadian media outlets, Hulsizer's camp has been largely silent.

Then Hulsizer failed to show for the first three games of the Coyotes' Western Conference quarterfinal series with the Detroit Red Wings (he won't attend Game 4, either).

 

[Steve Passless*]

You know, it takes serious balls to talk about Phoenix as an ambitious and progressive investment when the team went bankrupt and lost half a billion in 15 years. It's some kind of investment, but not one I'd want to make with my money. I should know. I'm Matt Hulsizer.

 

[davemac1313]

Game 4 tonight and a looming showdown between CoG and GWI tomorrow afternoon. Yet MH won't attend game 4 either according to FoxSportsArizona article.

http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/04/...-here/landing.html?blockID=507085&feedID=3801

If he is serious and the Hockey fan he says he is....why does he not show it to the Fans, the COG and the NHL. This seems strange to me...a kid wanting a new toy looks at the catalogue everyday, thats all they think about. It is nearing the end one way or another, why wouldn't he show his support?? He seems to have lost some interest.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Winnipeg is a small market team but bringing Thomson into the NHL fold could do wonders for the league.

What specifically?

I agree. You are a very passionate poster Fidel and I enjoy reading your posts, but comments like that do not help the relations between Winnipeg and Phoenix hockey fans.

Just like most of us take exception to Winnipeg being labeled a **** hole, dump, Siberia, etc. We should not be insulting the City of Phoenix, Scottsdale, Glendale either.

This is a Business issue, and there is no reason for a small number of people from two cities 2000 Kilometers away to hate each other.

If Phoenix figures out a way to keep their team, even though I was looking forward to NHL hockey, I will offer them my congratulations. If Winnipeg somehow gets a team, I would be offering fans of the relocated team an olive branch.

There's no reason why we all can't take the high road here.

I agree with all here but would add the bolded part.

 

[Oscar Acosta]

for the last decade or so, has been pretty strong and consistent about its policy of trying to stabilize existing markets when they run into trouble (Pittsburgh, Edmonton, Nashville, Buffalo, Ottawa, etc.). No matter where those markets are located, traditional or non-traditional, small market or large market.

Just have to chime in here as it's a pet peeve when people say the NHL helped Edmonton. They were more than willing to let them go and gave them all of 2 weeks or so to find a local owner or they were off to Houston. The NHL did nothing, the people of Edmonton saved their team. When people add Edmonton in to that mix of the NHL fighting for them or saving the franchise, it's a little insulting to the city of Edmonton who were almost team 3 to have their heart ripped out for a buck.

That Fidel Astro guy is on the money for what the NHL needs to be doing from here on in.

 

[optimus2861]

Afraid to lose the Phoenix TV market.....not sure that is a valid argument

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2011/04/tv-ratings-coyotes-struggle-suns-shine.html

Wow: "The Yotes averaged just 9,000 households watching the game on TV this regular season — an 18 percent drop from last year."

So even last year, factoring in that 18% drop, the average was less than 12,000. Meaning there are more actual fans in attendance at the rink most nights than fans watching on TV. That is putrid.

Maybe Phoenix needs a fresh start. Let the Coyotes leave, let the market lay fallow for a while, and come in with a franchise that won't be a perennial also-ran (one sometimes wonders why Winnipeg wants this particular franchise back given its history of mediocrity). If you can't even scrape up a full rink's worth of TV viewers in a season.. stick a fork in it, it's done.

 

[throatguzzler]

You know, it takes serious balls to talk about Phoenix as an ambitious and progressive investment when the team went bankrupt and lost half a billion in 15 years. It's some kind of investment, but not one I'd want to make with my money. I should know. I'm Matt Hulsizer.

Read it properly. Look at the other cities I listed...

Obviously in hindsight Phoenix was a terrible idea; but if you know anyone who can predict the future go ahead and inform Bettman so situations like this can be prevented. All I'm saying is there are far better cities which should be considered for potential relocation.

 

[dbr2]

Read it properly. Look at the other cities I listed...

Obviously in hindsight Phoenix was a terrible idea; but if you know anyone who can predict the future please tell me so situations like this can be prevented. All I'm saying is there are far better cities which should be considered for potential relocation.

Which cities?

A city like Winnipeg is more than ready for an NHL team to begin playing in that city next fall. This is a major plus for the league on their final decision.

 

[throatguzzler]

Which cities?

A city like Winnipeg is more than ready for an NHL team to begin playing in that city next fall. This is a major plus for the league on their final decision.

Well you can't pop a team into any of the following cities immediately due to arena issues, but Houston, KC, and Seattle to name a few.

 

[Niagara67]

Yeah, the NHL could play it safe and move to a dedicated small hockey city, or it can be ambitious and try a market 7-10 times as large and see if it works there.

Megalopolis Los Angeles was added in 1967. 44 years later is LA any more profitable than a "small hockey city" like Edmonton or Calgary?

If you want ambitious, move the Coyotes to Mexico City, pop. 21,000,000. If you want reasonably profitable & stable, move them to Winnipeg.