Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ

[MaskedSonja]

So...

The NHL will not change thier asking price.
Hulsizer will not change his paying price
The GWI will not back down
The bonds won't sell yet
The NHL asked the CoG to kick in another $40M
The CoG may not have given all the documents to the GWI
The GWI still has more to review if they ever get more documentation
Lieberman is mad
Bettman came to town to cut down the GWI and then left
Scruggs is most likely close to a nervous breakdown

What else am I missing?

For this saga? Common Sense (you aren't missing it, they are )

 

[AllByDesign]

So...

The NHL will not change thier asking price.
Hulsizer will not change his paying price
The GWI will not back down
The bonds won't sell yet
The NHL asked the CoG to kick in another $40M
The CoG may not have given all the documents to the GWI
The GWI still has more to review if they ever get more documentation
Lieberman is mad
Bettman came to town to cut down the GWI and then left
Scruggs is most likely close to a nervous breakdown

What else am I missing?

I believe Killion is starting to have a stroke.

 

[AllByDesign]

IMO, the bonds will only sell at an interest rate greater than 9% (otherwise you'd have to think COG would've already explored this avenue).

The only way to issue them at an interest rate great than 9% to have the COG council vote in favor of it. The reason they haven't held a vote: the majority (Liberman and others) would vote against it.

Divided council = no vote = no rate greater than 9% = no sale of bonds.

I don't see them selling at a higher rate. Higher rate = Higher Debt servicing cost, making the numbers uglier than they are. RE ABD vs Mr. Chin's Chinese chicken.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Really? You want a private group, backed by private money, to have carte blanche to stop any agreement it decides is "unlawful"?

How about one that squelched abortion clinics?

Or one that decided unions shouldn't be allowed?

Or one that attempted to outlaw immigration?

Or the teaching of evolution? (or anything other than Christian-based schools, for that matter)

And they could do any of this, without you having any say at all, until they are backed down in court?

You really want that, eh?

Don't even try to claim I am exaggerating, either - every one of those is either in the process of being enacted in various states, or the fight is on to do so. Arizona is one of the most screwed up places in North America and people like the GWI are a big part of why.

You take the good with the bad. Y'know, it's called "democracy." And if Goldwater was just tilting at windmills here, nobody would be listening. It's not like the group isn't calling attention to a very controversial deal that very well could cost taxpayers in Glendale tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars in subsequent decades.

And also...stop pretending that this was some slam-dunk deal that EVERYONE loves but Goldwater! Three of seven Glendale councillors oppose the deal! It's controversial and seen as potentially illegal right in council chambers!

 

[Killion]

I believe Killion is starting to have a stroke.

Nope. No worries out here ABD. I find alcohol imbibes one with an infinite sense of the absurd, patience for stupidity. And ya, I stole that too. Sammy Davis Jr.

 

[IceAce]

No. You missed my own point. The citizens here have a government that represents their interests to the point that they let a team leave rather than commit an insanity (IMO) on a much smaller scale than the CoG are currently considering. This is not in my back yard country. I'd suggest that you are poorly placed to judge the level of local interest in Winnipeg civic affairs.

I didn't miss your point, I got what you're saying however it's completely irrelevant to the first point I made. You're arguing a point I never made. And I don't need to be in Winnipeg to log on to the Free Press' website and see the amount of coverage the CoG hearings generate versus the CoW's, It's not exactly a secret either that people's priorities are twisted when it comes to pro sports.

 

[TrentSteele]

Could someone answer this for me?

If I'm following things correctly, the NHL currently owns the Parking Rights as the owners of the Coyotes, correct?

If that is the case, does Hulsizer need to purchase either these rights or the coyotes prior to selling them to the COG, since he needs that $100 mill to purchase the team?

The reason I ask is because GB seemed to be distancing himself for the deal between Hulsizer and the COG, even though it would seem that it has to be a three way deal to work correctly.

 

[Dado]

a serious question

From my vantage point up here in Canada, I'v observed that the American public for the most part are very sensitive to taxation and how the money is spent by the pols.

America is an interesting place - on the one hand there is a strong libertarian outward face - on the other hand, Americans generally LOVE their pork barrel spending, as long as they have a snout in the barrel.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I didn't miss your point, I got what you're saying however it's completely irrelevant to the first point I made. You're arguing a point I never made. And I don't need to be in Winnipeg to log on to the Free Press' website and see the amount of coverage the CoG hearings generate versus the CoW's, It's not exactly a secret either that people's priorities are twisted when it comes to pro sports.

A visit to the Winnipeg Free Press site is not indicative of the level of interest in local politics, sorry. Reading a few newspaper articles about the potential for the return of a hockey team to Canada and the attached comments does not imply in any way that interest in local civic affairs here is low either. In fact, I'd suggest that Canadians are more likely to be involved at the civic level, but that then require me to make an uninformed assumption about the level of interest in the US, and I don't generalize, unlike others. You are still poorly placed to judge the level of local interest in the civic affairs in Winnipeg BTW.

 

[yotesreign]

However, if the yotes do move, I guarantee you that Glendale would be on the possible list to get another team if they can find an owner to pay the price. Bettman does not fight this hard to save the yotes to disregard the area in the future. Again, this is assuming the deal does fall through.

As a STH and lifelong hockey fanatic, this whole fiasco has me to the point where I am pretty much close to saying *F--- it* with the whole enchilada, GWI, CoG, NHL.

The GWI can go jump into the Grand Canyon without parachutes and all die, AFAIC. Not just about this but about most every position they have. They're jerkoffs still crying about a year old leaked memo advising staff to 'play with her'. Oh, can't let that one go. They are pissants, petty and vindictive runts. I root for them to choke on their lunch. ESAD, GWI.

Oughta be a tee shirt.

"ESAD,
GWI!"

When I decided to move here 30+ years ago from Chicagoland, I debated the move a lot.

The lack of an NHL franchise here was one of the things on my list against the move, and much higher up than the lack of NFL was. Didn't keep me from moving here but I was on board as soon as we got our team.

Getting the NHL here has been a plus for me, but hey, it's not about me, is it? There's 5 million+ other folks here year round and not enough of them care to sell the building out at NHL averages.

And on the +plus+ side for optimists, so many of those folks have had no connection to this team, probably most of them won't even notice if it leaves, and if another team does come here in years or decades, maybe by then those other folks will welcome it with open arms and great enthusiasm.

But for me, when this team leaves Arizona, I'm pretty sure I'll be done caring about the NHL.

And on the bright side, no NHL here will save me thousands every year that I can spend on other things, like maybe buying a new car every five years instead of every 10! Taking 2 week vacations out of state in the summer instead of just 1 week!

Maybe upgrading my Nascar STHs. Redoing the master bathroom! Man with an extra $3,000 a year in my pocket instead of the NHLs pocket... I could find some fun ways to spend that money.

Ha, maybe I should be saying "Thanks, GWI, don't ESA Die."

Looking at it that way... might make me feel less bitter, but I still wouldn't give the Goldwater Institute one cent for their thoughts.

 

[GSC2k2*]

So...

The NHL will not change thier asking price.
Hulsizer will not change his paying price
The GWI will not back down
The bonds won't sell yet
The NHL asked the CoG to kick in another $40M
The CoG may not have given all the documents to the GWI
The GWI still has more to review if they ever get more documentation
Lieberman is mad
Bettman came to town to cut down the GWI and then left
Scruggs is most likely close to a nervous breakdown

What else am I missing?

A couple of things:

1. Regarding "The bonds won't sell yet", you and many others here have made an enormous leap from "the bonds have not yet sold" to "the bonds won't sell yet". I suggest to you that it may very well (even more arguably, IMO) be "the bonds can be sold, but not at regular market rates that the CoG feels are appropriate and which it wants".

2. Regarding "The NHL asked the CoG to kick in another $40M", that is wrong even if one believes the reports to date.

3. You seem to be assuming that all of the parties above can be taken at face value in their public statements.

4. To answer your question as to what you are missing, i suggest you are missing the multiple other choices available to the parties to close the transaction.

 

[CasualFan]

If I'm following things correctly, the NHL currently owns the Parking Rights as the owners of the Coyotes, correct?

Over the years, as this case developed, a clear path to the team's ownership of the parking rights was established. However, to my knowledge it has never been documented or corroborated that the path was actually taken by the NHL.

Absent a disclosure by Goldwater to show that it was not taken or a disclosure by Glendale to show that it was, all we can do is speculate. Of all the bizarre turns this saga has taken, the fact that neither side has run to a hilltop to show irrefutable evidence of their claim is the one that stands out most to me. This is especially curious because, as Mork pointed out earlier, Glendale was fully aware that Goldwater was poised to challenge the deal. Not having all of the documents that prove the constitutional validity of the transaction ready is a rather curious approach.

The reality may well be that between the complex structure of the agreements, the bankruptcy proceedings, and the NHL's schedules for assumption of contracts - neither Goldwater nor Glendale truly knows who owns the parking rights.

 

[NHLfan4life]

As a STH and lifelong hockey fanatic, this whole fiasco has me to the point where I am pretty much close to saying *F--- it* with the whole enchilada, GWI, CoG, NHL.

The GWI can go jump into the Grand Canyon without parachutes and all die, AFAIC. Not just about this but about most every position they have. They're jerkoffs still crying about a year old leaked memo advising staff to 'play with her'. Oh, can't let that one go. They are pissants, petty and vindictive runts. I root for them to choke on their lunch. ESAD, GWI.

Oughta be a tee shirt.

"ESAD,
GWI!"

When I decided to move here 30+ years ago from Chicagoland, I debated the move a lot.

The lack of an NHL franchise here was one of the things on my list against the move, and much higher up than the lack of NFL was. Didn't keep me from moving here but I was on board as soon as we got our team.

Getting the NHL here has been a plus for me, but hey, it's not about me, is it? There's 5 million+ other folks here year round and not enough of them care to sell the building out at NHL averages.

And on the +plus+ side for optimists, so many of those folks have had no connection to this team, probably most of them won't even notice if it leaves, and if another team does come here in years or decades, maybe by then those other folks will welcome it with open arms and great enthusiasm.

But for me, when this team leaves Arizona, I'm pretty sure I'll be done caring about the NHL.

And on the bright side, no NHL here will save me thousands every year that I can spend on other things, like maybe buying a new car every five years instead of every 10! Taking 2 week vacations out of state in the summer instead of just 1 week!

Maybe upgrading my Nascar STHs. Redoing the master bathroom! Man with an extra $3,000 a year in my pocket instead of the NHLs pocket... I could find some fun ways to spend that money.

Ha, maybe I should be saying "Thanks, GWI, don't ESA Die."

Looking at it that way... might make me feel less bitter, but I still wouldn't give the Goldwater Institute one cent for their thoughts.

...And that is the reason attendance is so low in the first place. Dedicated Coyotes fans are now on the brink like you. This fiasco has shaken off the casual fans and potential life long fans long ago. It's hard to explain to anyone who is not here going through the gyrations and it sounds like an excuse. But, your post is a great example of what affects attendance and support. It appears to be lackluster to anyone outside of the city but what it equates to being a fan for the past 5 years is hanging onto a 1500 pound bull with his nuts in a vice. It gets exhausting and this thing keeps changing directions. Most people don't want to put their hard earned money into something that is as unstable as this situation/ownership debacle has been.

Flame away people not from here. AZ doesn't hate the NHL, we are just as tired as you are of this whole thing. We don't care who's fault anything is anymore. Just get it done or drive the Coyotes to KC.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

There's one factor that will get Gary's goat basically forever, if the Coyotes return home to Winnipeg...

Balsillie. No matter what Bettman will claim, if Jimmy Balls hadn't helped bring the Coyotes into bankrupcy, there would have been a nice tidy sale to Reinsdorf, and this wouldn't be happening.

The GWI would have been just as interested in any deal with JR so I'm not sure I believe that a "nice tidy sale" would have happened there either.

GHOST

 

[Fishy McScales]

A couple of things:

1. Regarding "The bonds won't sell yet", you and many others here have made an enormous leap from "the bonds have not yet sold" to "the bonds won't sell yet". I suggest to you that it may very well (even more arguably, IMO) be "the bonds can be sold, but not at regular market rates that the CoG feels are appropriate and which it wants".

2. Regarding "The NHL asked the CoG to kick in another $40M", that is wrong even if one believes the reports to date.

3. You seem to be assuming that all of the parties above can be taken at face value in their public statements.

4. To answer your question as to what you are missing, i suggest you are missing the multiple other choices available to the parties to close the transaction.

Such as? You just answered his question by not answering his question.

 

[Kid_Roll]

...And that is the reason attendance is so low in the first place. Dedicated Coyotes fans are now on the brink like you. This fiasco has shaken off the casual fans and potential life long fans long ago. It's hard to explain to anyone who is not here going through the gyrations and it sounds like an excuse. But, your post is a great example of what affects attendance and support. It appears to be lackluster to anyone outside of the city but what it equates to being a fan for the past 5 years is hanging onto a 1500 pound bull with his nuts in a vice. It gets exhausting and this thing keeps changing directions. Most people don't want to put their hard earned money into something that is as unstable as this situation/ownership debacle has been.

Flame away people not from here. AZ doesn't hate the NHL, we are just as tired as you are of this whole thing. We don't care who's fault anything is anymore. Just get it done or drive the Coyotes to KC.

I feel like I am talking to a brother in arms. The Vancouver Grizzlies had the same thing happen here. Imagine the worlds worst ownership, except instead of the league helping you, they bungle things up even worse. The NBA 'suggested' we take Stu Jackson as our GM. Stu Jackson, the genius who took Reeves and said 'thanks but no thanks' to picking up Steve Nash.

By the end of the Grizzlies reign here, I don't think many people cared what happened to the team, as long as it just ended. It's hard to care for a team that obviously is a pawn in a bigger game that has nothing to do with the fans interests at all.

At least you guys are winning during this stretch. The Grizzlies were setting losing records left and right, and the guy who eventually moved the team to Memphis, when he first bought the team (Swearing he had NO intention of moving the team, no, honest, for reals) he even sang the Canadian national anthem before a game to show his support for the team.


There is something.......******* annoying about watching rich men play with their toys in front of you.

 

[adrenaline]

A couple of things:

2. Regarding "The NHL asked the CoG to kick in another $40M", that is wrong even if one believes the reports to date.

.

First post.. been reading for a few weeks.

Lieberman said this morning that yesterday Bettman asked the city to put 40 million more to cover this years losses.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Such as? You just answered his question by not answering his question.

Discussed at length previously in the multiple threads. You have not been around. CBCWPG has.

 

[GSC2k2*]

First post.. been reading for a few weeks.

Lieberman said this morning that yesterday Bettman asked the city to put 40 million more to cover this years losses.

Thanks, I see that now, but that does not even make sense. Phil Lieberman is IMO a doddering fool who has expressed equally nonsensical statements (such as his goofy interpretation of the $25 fund) in the past. I discount it until corroborated by someone who is not clearly addle-minded.

The NHL would propose to fix the problems in closing the transaction (GWI's concerns over the payment of monies by CoG) by having CoG pay MORE money. Thanks, councilman Lieberman.

 

[hfboardsuser]

Re: GWI

As a resident of Alberta, I place an intrinsic value on our version of GWI, the "Parkland Institute", which is based out of the University of Alberta and promotes non-partisan public policy research. I recognize many of the tactics GWI has employed to date because it's how the Parkland Institute often must do things. It seems once a year, either provincial or local government attempts to rush some concerning piece of policy through with little or no public consultation. An example: back in 2009, City of Edmonton city council held a secret vote with regards to the privatization of the city's power generation arm. Nobody was told anything about it, and it was almost a month before it even came to light.

The Parkland Institute publicized the issue, leading three provincial unions to sue the City in an attempt to stop the sale. While I'm sure city council was upset at the prospect of their $5B transaction being nullified, it was clearly a dirty play and the city likely recognized the battle they would have had on their hands had the public actually been allowed to exercise their democratic right to inform their representative councilor of their opinion beforehand.

Similarly, while I can understand why Coyotes fans, Bettman and the four COG councilors in support of the sale are upset, every democracy needs a body that is free to say "Woah, let's back up a minute here. Let's get some more information before you do this." While it sometimes requires a bit game play to accomplish that, if governments respected the democratic process in the first place, none of it would be necessary.

 

[Dado]

Lieberman said this morning that yesterday Bettman asked the city to put 40 million more to cover this years losses.

That's insane. They can't come up with the $100M, and he wants to bump it to $140M?

Why not just take a swing at their collective neck with a broadsword, it would be quicker and less painful.

 

[Fishy McScales]

That's insane. They can't come up with the $100M, and he wants to bump it to $140M?

Why not just take a swing at their collective neck with a broadsword, it would be quicker and less painful.

Because the GWI would point out it's against AZ constitution?

 

[SMoneyMonkey]

You know, if it was a bit earlier in this whole thing it'd be nice to have a monthly poll to see how much of the business board thinks the Coyotes will move. Would be cool to plot the change and the see what effects different events had on the ratio.

Ah well, suppose it's too late now.

 

[cbcwpg]

2. Regarding "The NHL asked the CoG to kick in another $40M", that is wrong even if one believes the reports to date.

I just saw that someone else (adrenaline , thanks) answered this. I was not referring the MH claim of $40M in losses, but Lieberman saying the CoG was asked for $40M more.

Lieberman did not specify what the $40M was for, but it could be for the losses that MH was quoted for, and because he won't pay more into the team, somebody has to cover those losses.

 

[Prussian_Blue]

I don't think anyone here is contemplating an AHL team... yet. I personally wouldn't mind one, because the tickets would be more affordable, and they'd probably be in the same division as Peoria, so I'd get to see the Blues' farmhands regularly.

The focus is on the NHL and the Coyotes, and the Goldwater Institute are the biggest bunch of obstructionist hypocrites that ever walked the face of the Earth.

Sure, go ahead and run the Coyotes out of town on a rail. You can also then kiss all the jobs at Westgate (the shopping and restaurant complex surrounding the arena) goodbye as well. Without those 40+ dates that bring people down to the arena, what other attraction is there for people to come out?

You get 8-10 Cardinal games a year out there. That revenue won't keep Westgate alive for long.

Goldwater and the other short-sighted rednecks that run everything in this burg wanted the new arena to be built downtown, along the light rail line. My question is: Where?

If the knuckleheads who built the America West Arena would have used a drop of common sense and built it with appropriate sightlines for both hockey and basketball, this would have never been an issue.

But no, they're so concerned about basketball and the also-ran, never-won-diddly-and-never-will Suns out here...

/rant.