Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ

[Ward Cornell]

Honestly, I don't think Americans care that much. The number of viewers who would see that and think, "Well, I was fine until he said something about them going CANADA!!!" is infinitesimally small. Maybe 2 or 3 nutcases who live in their mom's basement. To most viewers, a relocation is a relocation. They either care about losing the team, or they don't... the destination is irrelevant.

In a cursory Google search, I couldn't find anything accusing Clemens of being unpatriotic.

What is the impression of viewers or sponsors when they show game highlights from Phoenix and there is very low attendance for all viewers to see?
IMHO....huh...if the hometown fans can turn out to watch why should I bother to watch?

NOW...

What is the impression of viewers or sponsors when they show game highlights from games with a sold-out raucous crowd for all viewers to see?
IMHO....WOW....this is one exciting sport, I gotta get myself a ticket or watch a game on the tube.

 

[tarheelhockey]

What is the impression of viewers or sponsors when they show game highlights from Phoenix and there is very low attendance for all viewers to see?
IMHO....huh...if the hometown fans can turn out to watch why should I bother to watch?

NOW...

What is the impression of viewers or sponsors when they show game highlights from games with a sold-out raucous crowd for all viewers to see?
IMHO....WOW....this is one exciting sport, I gotta get myself a ticket or watch a game on the tube.

What does any of that have to do with my previous comment?

 

[Killion]

Thanks, thanks for nothin people. Preciated the Readers Digest Version from exactly no one & had to go Swamping 1st thing to find out what was happenin. Not much apparently.

Who here wishes their city had a GWI scrutinizing their cities affairs?

We do here in Vancouver. Protesting is a profession for many. Nationally of course we have the Auditor General's Office (Sheila Fraser), her reports generally motivating any number of organizations to go ballistic.

I thought that one of the avenues for making this deal happen was for either Hulsizer or the NHL to alter the terms of the deal somewhat to make it more palatable for the GWI, but that now appears out of the question. Frankly, that is very surprising to me.

Really?. Im not in the least bit surprised Whileee and neither should you be based on your insightful posts throughout this process. You yourself have posited, as have I and many many others that both positions are entrenched and intractable; that Hulsizer is not going to "up the ante'" nor can the COG do much more going reverse or forward pursuant to the terms; the NHL isnt going to drop its asking price or provide financing; it doesnt even matter if the deals legal or not anymore as were well past the point of return. Frankly, all yesterdays Bettman/Daly junket to Phoenix was about was to point the finger at GW with one hand while holding out the other to the COG with a demand for another $40M for Hulsizer. What do you think of that?. Transparent & quite appalling really.

I think that under the guise of being "accountable to the taxpayers" they are just piling onto the swelling tea party movement and see this as an easy victory that will get them wide spread attention and in some way shape or from promotions.

Absolutely. They dont have to drop the writ, let Glendale. They can claim victory and fatten their donation chests with claims of "how we took down the NHL and Glendale, saving the taxpayers from financial Armageddon and elected officials from themselves". Alrighty then.

Any chance we can get back to focusing on the sale of this team? This thread had once again become overrun by the same old discussions on Winnipeg and Bettman.

10 minutes to weigh through it. So ya, please stop it people. What jesse says...

“I may sue the city in attempt to find out,” Lieberman said. [/I]

Truth in humor.

city claims no meetings with GWI, GWI states over a dozen meetings, therefore GWI says future meeting must be in public forum

I tend to go with the GWI's take on this. Why the COG would deny any meeting took place at all is just plain vile... Hulsizer claimed to have met with them in December; this mess ameliorated & dealt with ages ago had anything truly positive been accomplished in said meetings.

They're not going to back down, basically the gist of it.

Not a chance. Lookit all the clicks & publicity their getting locally, state wide & nationally.

Unless you're talking about the NHL in which case you're right. the NHL has never wanted to be a committed owner.

OT a bit, but really, my idea was that they shouldve' been (a committed owner) & backed up their mouths with their wallets, hung onto & run the Coyotes themselves & been a pro-active vendor in turning the teams financial woes around & working with the COG in securing GOOD OWNERSHIP 3-5yrs out. Sure, Moyes left the property in a shambles, gutted the plumbing & wiring, lifted out the floors & stripped the roofing clean off, however, the NHL owns it, so deal with it instead of calling in the house movers. But I guess that'd be too much work, too much responsibility, too expensive for a league claiming billions in revenues huh?. And please, spare yourself the trouble of trying to argue that the leagues not in the business of owning & running franchises. You'll get peppered & pickled; hoisted on your own petard. Just sit on it Sisters & Brothers....

 

[aj8000]

Perhaps, but there would be a big difference between the team relocating or not relocating. A relo would remove one potential expansion target from the market.

However, if the yotes do move, I guarantee you that Glendale would be on the possible list to get another team if they can find an owner to pay the price. Bettman does not fight this hard to save the yotes to disregard the area in the future. Again, this is assuming the deal does fall through.

 

[Bittco]

However, if the yotes do move, I guarantee you that Glendale would be on the possible list to get another team if they can find an owner to pay the price. Bettman does not fight this hard to save the yotes to disregard the area in the future. Again, this is assuming the deal does fall through.

i honestly think this would be the case. if the coyotes move then there will be 2 big american markets where there is no team- phoenix and houston. while the support might not be there now for the coyotes strides will be made and i do think down the line proper fan support could be afforded. people are moving to places like phoenix, atlanta, dallas, houston, etc from SOMEWHERE and many of those places have hockey teams

 

[The Pouzar]

Where to place the blame?

As I was reading through the thread and the latest developments in PHX and have seen blame being directed at GWI, CoG, the NHL, MH, etc. , but none seems to be directed at Steve Ellman. Ellman was the man who brought the Coyotes to Glendale to help finance his development and only really cared about the Westgate as evidenced by how he was able to shift ownership to Jerry Moyes. I seem to recall that there was general approval for an arena in Scottsdale , but not for the commercial development the he(Ellman) desired. I'm hoping the NHL looks at this before this situation happens again on LI.

 

[Kid_Roll]

What does any of that have to do with my previous comment?

What do you think people do when they get their coffee in the morning and the person serving it is bored, disinterested, and when you finally get your coffee, it's cold and unsavoury. People aren't going to want to get your coffee.

NOW

Imagine a place bustling with customers, people serving coffee happily, the vibe in the place is just off the wall, and the coffee is hot and fresh. That's the kind of place you'd want to get coffee from.



Get it yet? Sheesh.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Get it yet? Sheesh.

So.... I should go get some coffee?

 

[cbcwpg]

http://www.cjob.com/Sports/Local/Story.aspx?ID=1377295

Darcy Olson appeared on CJOB's Richard Cloutier Reports Wednesday morning

 

[LadyStanley]

If the Coyotes leave, could the city of Glendale entertain another solution? An AHL team, an AFL team, indoor soccer? I do realize the Coyotes would be the large draw, but could there be something else that could keep the economy going?

You'd think that there was a chance an AHL team could be brought into Glendale, so based on it's success maybe down the road if there's ever an expansion, based on the support of this "new" AHL team, Glendale could be in a better position in a few years.

The Phoenix region has had two failed ECHL-level teams (one before there was a NHL team).

Any AHL team would be geographically challenged (nearest teams in Texas or Oklahoma); their travel budget would probably be close to what a NHL team would be with all of the plane rides. And that AHL team may have to pay additional monies for opponent travel.

 

[Roughneck]

Especially losses incurred before you even owned the team.

Unless you're talking about the NHL in which case you're right. the NHL has never wanted to be a committed owner.

I wasn't talking about the NHL but it seems as though I let them off the hook in that regard. Really we (or just I) keep talking about Hulsizer and the city and act like the NHL is a bystander in all of this but really they're the ones making this as difficult as anybody.

Extremely reluctant owners of a team they want to keep in Glendale, but are (seemingly) refusing to lose any money on the deal. If keeping a team in Arizona is indeed what is best for the league wouldn't it be worthwhile to accept some losses so that Hulsizer can lower the amount he needs which lowers the amount the city needs to raise so a deal can get done?

I understand the league doesn't want to lose any money, but dragging this process out and wanting the city to front ANOTHER $40M on top of the unprecedented amount they're already being asked doesn't seem right to me. If I were to try and interpret the move it either illustrates just how out of touch the NHL is with the situation (unlikely) or its a move to try and push the city to canceling the deal so the NHL can look to its other options (make its money back) but not actually being on the hook for killing the deal.


How long are we going to have to wait for somebody to finally do something?

 

[therealkoho]

a serious question

From my vantage point up here in Canada, I'v observed that the American public for the most part are very sensitive to taxation and how the money is spent by the pols. It seems to me that spending taxpayer money for the sole benefit of a millionaire would seem like a form of pork barreling. the only jobs involved for the public benefit are mostly of the minimum wage variety.

Why is it that the GI is being villified for what seems to be an altruistic gesture on behalf of the AZ taxpayer

 

[Killion]

I was reading throught the thread and the latest developments in PHX and have seen blame being directed at GWI, CoG, the NHL, MH, etc. , but none seems to be directed at Steve Ellman.

No question in my mind that Salesman Steves' the author of this debacle, however, he's more or less free & clear of the current Shenanigans, a spectator like everyone else to the main protagonists, concerned with the fairly serious financial ramifications to his development should the team leave. Or not. He's just a very very weird person. Quite sure we'll be seeing book's out on all of this just in time for Christmas. Just dont try and buy a copy at shopnhl dot com....

 

[IceAce]

mod delete

That makes zero sense. Frankly, if the CoW was right now considering mortgaging the future by proportionately risking taxpayer dollars to bring a team here - in the same manner as the CoG is considering risking the future to keep their own team, one can be certain that commensurate interest would be displayed in the CoW meetings. Since private (not taxpayer) dollars are involved in the Winnipeg bid, there is little interest in the CoW meetings as such. See how that works?

Interesting. You've totally missed the point I was making, yet you've also reinforced it, which was simply that people don't invest the amount of time and attention to what their own local government is doing that they do with one a thousand miles away, simply because it may end with some chance of their city receiving a hockey team which is equally as screwed up a thought process as what Glendale is trying to pull with the bonds.

 

[LadyStanley]

2525 -- might I suggest the use of the search feature on the forum?

There have been numerous discussions over the years of potential US NHL franchise locations, including KC, Houston, Portland (OR), Seattle.

And the two primary issues to be addressed (first) for all those locations is 1) suitable arena, 2) ownership.

After that, you get into corporate sponsorship availability.

It could be that Bettman is hedging his comments WRT relocation to Winnipeg as other groups have expressed interest in a relocatable franchise, and there just might be a bidding "war" for such an asset. Neither the BOG nor Bettman have fully stated the league's position on how to relocate the Coyotes IF it comes to that.

If we can have a civilized discussion on potential relocation, then perhaps it's time for a new thread.

 

[Brodie]

I hope this is the final thread. Oh what a name

 

[goyotes]

http://www.cjob.com/Sports/Local/Story.aspx?ID=1377295

Darcy Olson appeared on CJOB's Richard Cloutier Reports Wednesday morning

I think it is funny that she is on the radio in Canada. Aside from KFYI which broadcasts Rush L. and the rest of the "Fox News" types, the GWI has declined interviews with the tv stations and all the sports radio stations. The GWI has not been asked any hard questions regarding what evidence they have to support their position. I think that may only be a matter of time.

Putting aside all that has happened in the last two days and the flurry of reports and rumors, I predict that at hour 11:59 in the life of this deal, the CoG will sell the bonds at an inflated interest rate. Therefore, we are certainly looking at "weeks" and not just "two weeks". Frustrating for anyone who wants resolution. And, I think some blame goes to the CoG for dragging their feet if they ultimately do intend to sell the bonds. Perhaps they are looking to shore up their position, or send a message to the market that the GWI's threats of litigation will not come to pass after the GWI has been called out publically by the City and the NHL.

I also thought it interesting that Liebo talks about a public vote. The fact is, whether the public voted on themselves or through their elected officals would not make one bit of difference to the GWI's legal position. I think Liebo knows this, but maybe I am giving him too much credit.

The public cannot vote for something unconstitutional. I think that really does put the issue in focus, however. Assume the public supported the council's action through a second vote, the will of the people could be diverted by the GWI's threats of litigation without the need for the GWI to actually make their case in court. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can defend the actions of the GWI, unless motivated purely by a desire to see the team relocate. The time to act for the GWI is now if their intention is to cut off any chance of the taxpayers being injured by what they beleive to be an illegal and unconstitutional transaction.

 

[Killion]

a serious question

From my vantage point up here in Canada, I'v observed that the American public for the most part are very sensitive to taxation and how the money is spent by the pols. It seems to me that spending taxpayer money for the sole benefit of a millionaire would seem like a form of pork barreling. the only jobs involved for the public benefit are mostly of the minimum wage variety.

Why is it that the GI is being villified for what seems to be an altruistic gesture on behalf of the AZ taxpayer

Aha. Your hitting the nail on the head. You mustve' had your coffee at Off the Wall huh?. :The COG's position is that NO TAXPAYER MONIES WILL BE REQUIRED TO FUND THE TEAM. The market (Bonds) & the team (pkg, advtg, CFD etc) will cover the investment, general revenues not touched. GW and many many many others find this premise fanastical based on historical evidence & on projections visa-vie TL Hocking et al. Its the "potential liabilities to the taxpayers" they are concerned with, along with what they obviously feel are breeches' of the Gift Clause; specifically that Glendale already owns the parking lots & cant sell then buy them back, not only at an optimistic price of $100M but at any price. Period. The lack of transparency & the over-extension of the cities ability to meet the projections of the plan on top of its existing obligations (arena debts etc) are indeed in a rather precarious state. Philosophically, you could say the glass is either half empty or half full moving forward; what GW's saying is the glass is empty & its a non-starter altogether, and were here to shut the bar down.

 

[AllByDesign]

I think it is funny that she is on the radio in Canada. Aside from KFYI which broadcasts Rush L. and the rest of the "Fox News" types, the GWI has declined interviews with the tv stations and all the sports radio stations. The GWI has not been asked any hard questions regarding what evidence they have to support their position. I think that may only be a matter of time.

I was perplexed with the fact she was on CJOB. I can see the radio station's motivations, but Olsen's?

Cloutier is normally a little more pointed in his questioning. He usually loves putting peoples feet to the fire in an interview. He was very easy on her. Obviously Olsen's results bodes well with the listening audience, but I wouldn't have complained if he really pushed the buttins on proving her point as to the infraction on the Arizona constitution.

Evidently Lieberman was on earlier.

 

[BrianSTC]

I think it is funny that she is on the radio in Canada. Aside from KFYI which broadcasts Rush L. and the rest of the "Fox News" types, the GWI has declined interviews with the tv stations and all the sports radio stations. The GWI has not been asked any hard questions regarding what evidence they have to support their position. I think that may only be a matter of time.

Putting aside all that has happened in the last two days and the flurry of reports and rumors, I predict that at hour 11:59 in the life of this deal, the CoG will sell the bonds at an inflated interest rate. Therefore, we are certainly looking at "weeks" and not just "two weeks". Frustrating for anyone who wants resolution. And, I think some blame goes to the CoG for dragging their feet if they ultimately do intend to sell the bonds. Perhaps they are looking to shore up their position, or send a message to the market that the GWI's threats of litigation will not come to pass after the GWI has been called out publically by the City and the NHL.

I also thought it interesting that Liebo talks about a public vote. The fact is, whether the public voted on themselves or through their elected officals would not make one bit of difference to the GWI's legal position. I think Liebo knows this, but maybe I am giving him too much credit.

The public cannot vote for something unconstitutional. I think that really does put the issue in focus, however. Assume the public supported the council's action through a second vote, the will of the people could be diverted by the GWI's threats of litigation without the need for the GWI to actually make their case in court. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can defend the actions of the GWI, unless motivated purely by a desire to see the team relocate. The time to act for the GWI is now if their intention is to cut off any chance of the taxpayers being injured by what they beleive to be an illegal and unconstitutional transaction.

Don't "FOX News types" want to give money to rich people? It would seem right up their alley to give $197 million to a hockey team owner...

 

[PitbulI]

Just throwing this out there. Could there be other organizations in Arizona that could still be upset with what Glendale did by making themselves a sports/entertainment oriented city? Perhaps they took opportunity away from Pheonix or another suburb?

I'm not saying this happened. I'm just asking.

 

[Gump Hasek]

mod delete



Interesting. You've totally missed the point I was making, yet you've also reinforced it, which was simply that people don't invest the amount of time and attention to what their own local government is doing that they do with one a thousand miles away, simply because it may end with some chance of their city receiving a hockey team which is equally as screwed up a thought process as what Glendale is trying to pull with the bonds.

No. You missed my own point. The citizens here have a government that represents their interests to the point that they let a team leave rather than commit an insanity (IMO) on a much smaller scale than the CoG are currently considering. This is not in my back yard country. I'd suggest that you are poorly placed to judge the level of local interest in Winnipeg civic affairs.

 

[goyotes]

Just throwing this out there. Could there be other organizations in Arizona that could still be upset with what Glendale did by making themselves a sports/entertainment oriented city? Perhaps they took opportunity away from Pheonix or another suburb?

I'm not saying this happened. I'm just asking.

There is speculation of a D-Back connection somewhere in the dark back rooms, but even I don't believe that. Other communities may be looking at how the CoG leverage to create this sports mecca, and are sitting back smiling, but that is also not likely. Frankly, what the GWI is doing should be seen as a threat to any local government that actually has to govern and conduct business on a day-to-day basis.

 

[cbcwpg]

So...

The NHL will not change thier asking price.
Hulsizer will not change his paying price
The GWI will not back down
The bonds won't sell yet
The NHL asked the CoG to kick in another $40M
The CoG may not have given all the documents to the GWI
The GWI still has more to review if they ever get more documentation
Lieberman is mad
Bettman came to town to cut down the GWI and then left
Scruggs is most likely close to a nervous breakdown

What else am I missing?

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

IMO, the bonds will only sell at an interest rate greater than 9% (otherwise you'd have to think COG would've already explored this avenue).

The only way to issue them at an interest rate great than 9% to have the COG council vote in favor of it. The reason they haven't held a vote: the majority (Liberman and others) would vote against it.

Divided council = no vote = no rate greater than 9% = no sale of bonds.