Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?

[OthmarAmmann]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain the recent Moody rating (like the one that just came out) was A1

The second lien revenue bonds issued by Glendale MPC (the parking and the arena bonds) are A1. Moody's also downgraded Glendale's general obligation rating to Aa2.

Does the timing of the special meeting vote (1 pm vs. the usual 7 pm) seem strange to anyone else?

IIRC, this is the first Coyotes-related vote that has been scheduled for earlier in the day.

Bond market will be closed by the time they vote, so it's probably not that. I think it's fair to assume the report that the issue would be delayed is true.

 

[Steve Passless*]

Just end this. It's time to quit dealing with these small-time idiots. It's pathetic that we've made suburban aldermen and a bumbling city lawyer these hockey superstars. There's money on the table waiting to be taken, and it's not in Arizona.

 

[Dado]

I just got a Groupon for $50 off the purchase of the Coyotes. If I endorse that over to MH, would that help speed things up?

 

[Dado]

Winning the Golden Ticket to the NHL at the expense of another community is a pyrrhic victory dontchathink?.

No, disagree.

A franchise this incompetent would have been gone from the league long ago if a fair system like promotion/relegation was in place, so from my perspective it's totally fair that the team goes bye-bye. In fact it's a travesty that it's been allowed to drag out this long when so many unserviced fans are eagerly awaiting elsewhere.

And if TNSE/Winnipeg also turns out to be incompetent, then they too shall deserve to lose their team, again.

 

[cbcwpg]

And I utterly & categorically reject your argument cbcwpg. With the exception of Miami & Long Island geographically, OWNERSHIP & LACK of LEAGUE STEWARDSHIP is responsible for the demise of what once held (and still does) so much promise. Nothing is more shattering than the death of a dream & lost potentialities as you know only to well.

I don't disagree that ownership in the past has contributed to some of the problems the Coyotes face today, but I'm sorry, if anyone says that the ONLY thing the Coyotes need to become a model of NHL success is a good owner then, they are kidding themselves. Hulsizer may end up being a great owner, but that's just one piece of the puzzle, and a small piece at that. The overall long term success of any franchise boils down to management, coaching, players, a fans willingness to support a team thru thick and thin, and ( sports people don't like hearing this ) but a HUGE amount of luck. IE; the experience of management to pick someone like Steve Yzerman and the luck that he turned out to be what you thought. Or the luck that the year you get to pick 1st overall a superstar is available and you pick him. Or just the general luck of a puck bounce.

And to be fair, just because TNSE has what looks to be good ownership willing to buy a team and put it in Winnipeg, doesn't mean the success of that franchise will be a slamdunk either. ( Hey, someone from Winnipeg saying it may not be a sure thing. ) But given thier overall business plan with more revenue streams than other citiies, it is looking decent.

 

[Killion]

...just seems there's more to Glendale than we all know!

You can Bet yer Bippy on it CC. Theres' a whole strata of subterrainea' underfoot. Who holds the Arena Bonds?. What is the COG hiding in refusing to release all relevant documentation pursuant to Lease Negotiations for the Arena & even more interestingly, Ellman, Westgate, the Bidwells & Sportsmans Park?.

 

[Killion]

No, disagree.

Why you contrarian Son of A BigTwin!. And to then minimize the loss with a shallow & facile "buh bye" like a cosmetics sampler or key words in a Sarah Palin speech?. "Hows that Hopee' Changee' thing all workin out for ya?"...And here I thought you were a kind, compassionate & socialist Canadian .

 

[xtra]

This point has been pretty much ignored so far, but it's a very important one. What is the approximate extra cost per year to COG resulting from the downgrade? What is the average amount of bonds issued in a typical year by the COG? This number then needs to be multiplied by the difference in percentage that these new bonds would be rated at. In other words, their new downgraded (AA1?) percentage minus the percentage they would have received with their old rating before this coyotes mess. Does anyone know these approximate numbers?

well my understanding of the power of the GWI is that they can only go after deals that give coporations(or new owners) an unexusable gift. I don't belive that they have the power to go after and stop something that is a bad deal. as in a moronic move which is what the bond issue would be. if they issue the bonds and it causes the city rating to drop and hold on to the money in a special account there is nothing the GWI can do. However the GWI can only step in to stop the city from giving that money to the owners of the team or corporation.

 

[Dado]

Why you contrarian Son of A BigTwin!. And to then minimize the loss with a shallow & facile "buh bye" like a cosmetics sampler or key words in a Sarah Palin speech?. "Hows that Hopee' Changee' thing all workin out for ya?"...And here I thought you were a kind, compassionate & socialist Canadian .

Life's a *****, man.



There's a time for compassion -- and then there's a time to jump off the bench and pummel the other team's goalie.



If it helps, I still think Atlanta is worth saving.

 

[Killion]

I don't disagree that ownership in the past has contributed to some of the problems the Coyotes face today, but I'm sorry, if anyone says that the ONLY thing the Coyotes need to become a model of NHL success is a good owner then, they are kidding themselves. Hulsizer may end up being a great owner, but that's just one piece of the puzzle, and a small piece at that......And to be fair, just because TNSE has what looks to be good ownership willing to buy a team and put it in Winnipeg, doesn't mean the success of that franchise will be a slamdunk either. ( Hey, someone from Winnipeg saying it may not be a sure thing. ) But given thier overall business plan with more revenue streams than other citiies, it is looking decent.

Good points & post. I guess we slightly disagree in that I believe a franchises' success starts with the owner (s) & if its a good un', then it filters down through the ranks. You know?, "Luck" is a funny thing. Those that have it generally work hard to achieve it. Case in point?. Your analogy of Yzerman & Detroit. The Dead Wings. A moribund franchise running on fumes until the city got "lucky" with a superb owner, who in turn hired pro's & let them do their jobs, demanding excellence. Honestly, I dont like the cut of Hulsizers Jib one little bit, and I dont think he'll be a "good owner". He's on the make, on the take. TNSE & Chipman in particular is a World Class First Rate Operator combining Prairie Wisdom with Wall Street Smarts. HRR's wont be huge in Winnipeg however combined with the concert & event activities amongst other interests in & around Portage & Main & the province in general, it's a slam-dunk IMO, regardless a dollar drop or not. If he, backed by Tompson, were not at the helm, and lets say it was Hulsizer or God Forbid IEH's decamped at the MTS, I'd be vehemently against a team in Winnipeg. Wrap your head around that waking nightmare.

I don't belive that they have the power to go after and stop something that is a bad deal. as in a moronic move which is what the bond issue would be. if they issue the bonds and it causes the city rating to drop and hold on to the money in a special account there is nothing the GWI can do. However the GWI can only step in to stop the city from giving that money to the owners of the team or corporation.

CasualFan (Lawyer) alerted us to the fact that the GWI could file immediately however the COG & Hulsizer havent signed off on all of the requisit paperwork, which would be required to launch a full on suit. They'll only get one shot at it, so like everyone else, they continue to wait. And watch. Tick tock....

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

If it was point two, then I doubt the debate would be in executive session. That said, I would be shocked if the vote went against it.

For the record, I take shots at CoG because they're so ineffectual and have made so many blundering moves. This situation should have been wrapped up with a proven owner in JR for far, far less cost than the current deal contemplates months before this season began. The recent downgrade and rope-a-dope bond issue is just more of the same. In terms of transparent and effective governance, they rank slightly below a sub-par condominium board.

Assuming "executive session" is our "in camera," you still have to come out to have an actual vote. So the result would still be public, which is what Scruggs and her backers would want.

I'd be shocked if Glendale voted this down, too. But I just don't see what the point is of taking this to a vote at this time, unless it's based on the two points I mentioned in my post. It's an odd time for a vote like that.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Assuming "executive session" is our "in camera," you still have to come out to have an actual vote. So the result would still be public, which is what Scruggs and her backers would want.

I'd be shocked if Glendale voted this down, too. But I just don't see what the point is of taking this to a vote at this time, unless it's based on the two points I mentioned in my post. It's an odd time for a vote like that.

Well, it is the 15th of the month...

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Yet they have thousands of kids playing youth hockey. How many played 20 years ago.

You are talking about bringing a sport to an area where it had never been before. It's going to take 30 years, for the 8-10 year olds that are joining the growing youth hockey now to grow up and be bring their kids to games, for it to be an established, consistent market.

Most businesses don't have the patience to wait generations, but it seems like the NHL does, and they just have to find an owner that has it too.

Okay, given that argument, please explain soccer. It's huge with kid leagues, has been growing across the US for a good 30 years. Yet the MLS still lags way behind every other pro and college sport in the US.

I agree with your generational premise, but I think we're looking at a lot longer than 30 or so years. It'd be more like 50-60 years, and that would require real popularity across the US. Especially in an area like Phoenix with so many transplants. How do you grow the game like you say, with families, when there is so much turnover with population coming in from elsewhere? It's not like you're dealing with a totally stable population all gradually getting into hockey.

 

[RR]

Does the timing of the special meeting vote (1 pm vs. the usual 7 pm) seem strange to anyone else?

IIRC, this is the first Coyotes-related vote that has been scheduled for earlier in the day.

The regular Tuesday bi-weekly workshop is always at 1:30 pm, so it's not unusual at all they'd call the special meeting for 1 pm.

 

[pegcity]

Hey, new guy on the board and if I may, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents on the Canadian hockey fan vs. the 'southern' American hockey fan

I know the current Canadian zeitgeist is 'any market in Canada is inherently the better market, always has and always will be.' But some people seem to forget that at one time Canadian markets were struggling mightily. Winnipeg was averaging 12000-13000 fans a game (under the same conditions the Coyotes are in, mainly never making it out of the first round), the Oilers, when they weren't winning Stanley Cups, were equally as bad in attendance and the Flames at one time had a season ticket base of 8000-9000 after a season ticket drive and cries to the community. The Senators were in Bankruptcy and the rumors were swirling (whether they were true or not, I don't know) that the Canucks could be on the move due to significant losses occurred by the ownership at the time.

Obviously this was due to a mix of problems that no longer exist (booming American dollar, lack of revenue sharing, bad arena deals and a bad on-ice product), but isn't that the same issues facing southern teams right now? The American economy is facing the largest recession since the great depression and the teams mentioned for relocation are teams that have been struggling (on-ice) since their inception. Heck, the Coyotes wouldn't be in this situation if it wasn't for Jerry Moyes's trucking company taking a major hit due to rising fuel prices and the fact that his headquarters is in one of cities hit hardest during the recession.

IMO, it seems obvious that with a better ownership group and a stable economy, among other things, both Atlanta and Phoenix could work. Whether or not that comes to fruition is another story. Either way it's been interesting keeping up with this story on this board.

 

[RECCE]

The regular Tuesday bi-weekly workshop is always at 1:30 pm, so it's not unusual at all they'd call the special meeting for 1 pm.

RR, what's the scuttlebutt up in the CC, how are folks perceiving these latest turn of events?

 

[Killion]

It's not like you're dealing with a totally stable population all gradually getting into hockey.

As you know, there has been a rather significant migration of people from the northern US to the south, southwest & California over the past 30yrs. Had the economy not flatlined, had Ellman gotten the arena built elsewhere, had a really decent ownership & management group been in place..... Lots of debatable points to ponder.

 

[Niagara67]

Hey, new guy on the board and if I may, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents on the Canadian hockey fan vs. the 'southern' American hockey fan

I know the current Canadian zeitgeist is 'any market in Canada is inherently the better market, always has and always will be.' But some people seem to forget that at one time Canadian markets were struggling mightily. Winnipeg was averaging 12000-13000 fans a game (under the same conditions the Coyotes are in, mainly never making it out of the first round), the Oilers, when they weren't winning Stanley Cups, were equally as bad in attendance and the Flames at one time had a season ticket base of 8000-9000 after a season ticket drive and cries to the community. The Senators were in Bankruptcy and the rumors were swirling (whether they were true or not, I don't know) that the Canucks could be on the move due to significant losses occurred by the ownership at the time.

Obviously this was due to a mix of problems that no longer exist (booming American dollar, lack of revenue sharing, bad arena deals and a bad on-ice product), but isn't that the same issues facing southern teams right now? The American economy is facing the largest recession since the great depression and the teams mentioned for relocation are teams that have been struggling (on-ice) since their inception. Heck, the Coyotes wouldn't be in this situation if it wasn't for Jerry Moyes's trucking company taking a major hit due to rising fuel prices and the fact that his headquarters is in one of cities hit hardest during the recession.

IMO, it seems obvious that with a better ownership group and a stable economy, among other things, both Atlanta and Phoenix could work. Whether or not that comes to fruition is another story. Either way it's been interesting keeping up with this story on this board.

One big difference is the Canadian teams you mentioned were profitable at some point. The Coyotes have never been profitable in Phoenix. How many decades & how many billions do you wait to see profit?

 

[Puckschmuck*]

One big difference is the Canadian teams you mentioned were profitable at some point. The Coyotes have never been profitable in Phoenix. How many decades & how many billions do you wait to see profit?

Has Phoenix ever had one single season where they were profitable? Just curious as I continually hear about them having never been a profitable franchise in Phoenix.

 

[RR]

RR, what's the scuttlebutt up in the CC, how are folks perceiving these latest turn of events?

Just between you and me, you don't want to know.

 

[Killion]

One big difference is the Canadian teams you mentioned were profitable at some point. The Coyotes have never been profitable in Phoenix. How many decades & how many billions do you wait to see profit?

For as long as it takes. Someone will come along with the vision & savvy to get it right. If we take a scalpel to the money-losers in the league how many teams do you think we'd wind up with?. Including relo's to QC/Ham/Wpg, you'd wind up with maybe 18-20. Personally, I wouldnt mind that one bit & I might even start watching games on a regular basis again. But if we did as you suggest, gone would be Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, LA, Anaheim, Dallas, Phoenix, Tampa, Miami, Atlanta, Carolina, Nashville, Columbus, Detroit, Boston, Minnesota, Long Island, NJ, Chicago.........All who in recent history (since 1967) have had serious difficulties.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

And I utterly & categorically reject your argument cbcwpg. With the exception of Miami & Long Island geographically, OWNERSHIP & LACK of LEAGUE STEWARDSHIP is responsible for the demise of what once held (and still does) so much promise. Nothing is more shattering than the death of a dream & lost potentialities as you know only to well.

Blame it all on the ownership groups, eh? I like to consider all of the factors not just one of the factors. You know things like lack of pre-existing hockey culture and interest? Things like pre-existing competition in the forms of NFL, NBA, MLB, NCAA, PGA, etc., etc. The main problem in some of these markets is quite simple and is starring everyone in the face: lack of interest in the NHL by the majority, mainstream of the market. The NHL is the only pro sports league I know of that places teams in markets with a lot of competing products and with no or little pre-existing interest in the sport.

Bingo. Where are the Canucks, Flames, the Oil, Sens, Leafs & Habs's?.

I believe people are mistaken if they assume all of the Canadian teams are dead set against additional NHL team in Canada. In the case of Winnipeg, TNSE has sought the cooperation of the Canadian teams from the beginning and it's looking likely that such approach will bear fruit in the near future.

I would suggest you simply Google "Minor Hockey in Phoenix Az" for the answer to that question. Winning the Golden Ticket to the NHL at the expense of another community is a pyrrhic victory dontchathink?.

The growth of hockey at the minor level in some non-traditional markets with recent NHL teams is undeniable but exaggerated by some people. It is similar to the situation with TV ratings. When your start point is close to zero, any increase is massive in percentage terms. There is, moreover, a physical limitation on that growth and it has to do with the expense of building facilities to play hockey in. The fact is a large metro such as Phoenix has Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan type number of hockey rinks. And the youth does not have the advantage of playing on outdoor rinks. There is also the seemingly flawed premise that all of these youth players are going to grow up, remain in the community, make a lot of money and start buying up all of the empty luxury boxes and club seats.

GHOST

 

[pegcity]

One big difference is the Canadian teams you mentioned were profitable at some point. The Coyotes have never been profitable in Phoenix. How many decades & how many billions do you wait to see profit?

The reason for the Yotes lack of profitability has to do with the city of Glendale owning the arena (Miami Sports and Entertainment Authority owns US Airways Center). The Oilers lost 10 million last year, despite being in the top 10 in ticket revenue (and probably corporate support) because Darryl Katz doesn't own the arena. Because he doesn't own the arena, he doesn't collect profits from from concession inside the arena and can't offset the Oilers current bad on ice product with other revenue generated from other event held within Rexall place.

IMO, the current deal on the table for Matthew Hulsizer will attempt to make up for the City of Glendale profiting from all the concessions.

If Mark Chipman didn't own the MTS Centre, he wouldn't be in the market for owning a NHL club.

 

[cbcwpg]

Has Phoenix ever had one single season where they were profitable? Just curious as I continually hear about them having never been a profitable franchise in Phoenix.

Its a know fact that the Coyotes have never turned a profit.

 

[RR]

For as long as it takes. Someone will come along with the vision & savvy to get it right. If we take a scalpel to the money-losers in the league how many teams do you think we'd wind up with?. Including relo's to QC/Ham/Wpg, you'd wind up with maybe 18-20. Personally, I wouldnt mind that one bit & I might even start watching games on a regular basis again. But if we did as you suggest, gone would be Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, LA, Anaheim, Dallas, Phoenix, Tampa, Miami, Atlanta, Carolina, Nashville, Columbus, Detroit, Boston, Minnesota, Long Island, NJ, Chicago.........All who in recent history (since 1967) have had serious difficulties.

And I have always defined that for as long as the NHL wants to keep a team here; there is an owner willing to pay the price to keep the team here; and the COG can reach an agreement with that owner to provide an Arena for the team.

Remove one of those variables, and there is no team in Phoenix.