Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?

[OthmarAmmann]

Does 9.9.3(b) obligate the city to extend the management fee at the end of five years?

 

[davemac1313]

So, should there be a players strike or owners lockout in the next 5 years....The city garners no parking revenue from Hockey and still pays MH 17 million to manage the arena.....I know who the first owner to vote for a lockout would be...

 

[peter sullivan]

Can anyone tell me what the CoG has to offer the NHL? There must be a real reason why G.B. chooses not to end this circus!

simple.....two problems (atlanta, phoenix), one solution (TNSE)

GB will wait as long as he possibly can.

 

[blues10]

So, should there be a players strike or owners lockout in the next 5 years....The city garners no parking revenue from Hockey and still pays MH 17 million to manage the arena.....I know who the first owner to vote for a lockout would be...

I noticed this the first time around. It escapes any common sense not to have provisions written into the lease for lockouts/work stoppages. If they are there I do not see them.

Mr. Hulsizer would have the only profitable year in Coyotes existence if the NHL didn't play for a season. He is a brilliant businessman and the COG is in way over their heads.

 

[davemac1313]

Does 9.9.3(b) obligate the city to extend the management fee at the end of five years?

Doesn't look like obligation, looks like the option is available to award it without tender, to MH if they both agree on a reasonable price

I take it back the COG does plan ahead 14.1.3(c)....the contingency plan for the Bankruptcy of the City of Glendale.....

 

[RAgIn]

Saturated marketplace in Phoenix:

http://www.bizjournals.com/mobile/p...1/02/many-layers-to-how-other-teams-feel.html

Kendrik believes a referendum would be useful for this scenario.

 

[LadyStanley]

simple.....two problems (atlanta, phoenix), one solution (TNSE)

GB will wait as long as he possibly can.

And QC sounds like they may have an owner in waiting (so with a new arena approved, they may be near the top of the NHL's list of potential "ready-to-go" owners).

KC is ready (but where's the owner?)

 

[peter sullivan]

And QC sounds like they may have an owner in waiting (so with a new arena approved, they may be near the top of the NHL's list of potential "ready-to-go" owners).

probably right...why else would quebec be in such a frenzied panic to make an arena announcement?...they see the problem and want to make sure gary knows they have taken a number and are waiting to be served.

 

[Call of the loonie]

Does the COG have any possible recourse if the NHL is forced to pull the plug?

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Question: could it be that the council is going to re-vote on this matter now that everyone is aware of the various parking lot studies? If it's a yes vote, GWI and critics can no longer use the argument that the councilors were not fully aware of the various studies.

On the other hand, I wonder if there is any possibility the council could vote down continued negotiations and throw in the towel on Tuesday? I doubt it, but have learned to expect the unexpected in this story.

GHOST

That has got to be what's going on here. The staff recommendation to council is just to keep going with the deal, after the minor changes. It's so vague as to be totally worthless. So this item looks like it's one of two things:

1. The result of a push for a new vote by one or more members of council, to determine if the will is still there to continue with this deal, using the excuse of the minor changes to bring this to the table. If that's the case, I'd bet that those pushing for the new vote have a good shot of killing the deal. All bets are off as to who wins the vote if this is what's going on behind the scenes. We were talking a 4-3 split in favour before already; maybe now somebody has flipped or is thinking of flipping.

2. Or a united or mostly united council is staging this vote to demonstrate that the city is still determined to do this Coyotes deal, GWI be damned. In this case, the mayor has probably directed staff to do this report, to make a public display of the city's will. This would seem unlikely, though, as I don't know why Scruggs would want this going to a public vote right now with council supposedly divided along a 4-3. If Scruggs is really orchestrating this as a shot at GWI, then you can bet that council isn't as split as we've been led to believe, and the vote will be at least 5-2.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point is of this report and recommendation to council at this time. It's a pointless exercise otherwise as it gives staff no real direction that it wasn't already following. It makes zero sense to open this up for a vote for the small changes that are being proposed, as nothing will be finally totally really finalized on Tuesday.

 

[lockstock]

That has got to be what's going on here. The staff recommendation to council is just to keep going with the deal, after the minor changes. It's so vague as to be totally worthless. So this item looks like it's one of two things:

1. The result of a push for a new vote by one or more members of council, to determine if the will is still there to continue with this deal, using the excuse of the minor changes to bring this to the table. If that's the case, I'd bet that those pushing for the new vote have a good shot of killing the deal. All bets are off as to who wins the vote if this is what's going on behind the scenes. We were talking a 4-3 split in favour before already; maybe now somebody has flipped or is thinking of flipping.

2. Or a united or mostly united council is staging this vote to demonstrate that the city is still determined to do this Coyotes deal, GWI be damned. In this case, the mayor has probably directed staff to do this report, to make a public display of the city's will. This would seem unlikely, though, as I don't know why Scruggs would want this going to a public vote right now with council supposedly divided along a 4-3. If Scruggs is really orchestrating this as a shot at GWI, then you can bet that council isn't as split as we've been led to believe, and the vote will be at least 5-2.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point is of this report and recommendation to council at this time. It's a pointless exercise otherwise as it gives staff no real direction that it wasn't already following. It makes zero sense to open this up for a vote for the small changes that are being proposed, as nothing will be finally totally really finalized on Tuesday.

3. This could be a deal between GWI and CoG. GWI is powerless until after the bonds are sold, but if they file suit afterwards, CoG is screwed. Maybe GWI is asking for another public vote with all of the facts up front. If they still vote to go forward, it's at their own risk, but GWI and all of the local naysayers will have their time to prove their case.

I'm probably wrong, but I hope that's what it is.

 

[Coach]

That has got to be what's going on here. The staff recommendation to council is just to keep going with the deal, after the minor changes. It's so vague as to be totally worthless. So this item looks like it's one of two things:

1. The result of a push for a new vote by one or more members of council, to determine if the will is still there to continue with this deal, using the excuse of the minor changes to bring this to the table. If that's the case, I'd bet that those pushing for the new vote have a good shot of killing the deal. All bets are off as to who wins the vote if this is what's going on behind the scenes. We were talking a 4-3 split in favour before already; maybe now somebody has flipped or is thinking of flipping.

2. Or a united or mostly united council is staging this vote to demonstrate that the city is still determined to do this Coyotes deal, GWI be damned. In this case, the mayor has probably directed staff to do this report, to make a public display of the city's will. This would seem unlikely, though, as I don't know why Scruggs would want this going to a public vote right now with council supposedly divided along a 4-3. If Scruggs is really orchestrating this as a shot at GWI, then you can bet that council isn't as split as we've been led to believe, and the vote will be at least 5-2.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point is of this report and recommendation to council at this time. It's a pointless exercise otherwise as it gives staff no real direction that it wasn't already following. It makes zero sense to open this up for a vote for the small changes that are being proposed, as nothing will be finally totally really finalized on Tuesday.

Yes very strange. The CoG had the bonds set to sell on Tuesday. You have to believe that something has happened to possibly change that.
1. Could the drop in bond rating or the possible higher than expected interest rates on the bonds be the cause.
2. Could it of been something Goldwater said.
Anyways another vote can be taken to be either a positive or negative by either side. So pure speculation for the next few days.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

If Goldwater ultimately kills this deal, does anyone else feel that COG will try and save face by preemptively voting to allow the Coyotes to leave?

This way, not only do they get to put the blame on Goldwater, but they can save their own political careers.

 

[objectiveposter]

the mayor is hell bent on getting this deal done. beasley has convinced her that it would be devastating if the coyotes leave. there is no way glendale is going to give up.....it will either be the nhl or gwi that ultimately kills the deal.

this deal will fall apart either because glendale runs out of time or the deal is illegal....glendale will never pick up the phone and tell gary that they have given up...even if it is very bleak they will simply ask for another couple of weeks...which is basically what they have been doing since they voted in favor of the lease in mid december

 

[OthmarAmmann]

That has got to be what's going on here. The staff recommendation to council is just to keep going with the deal, after the minor changes. It's so vague as to be totally worthless. So this item looks like it's one of two things:

1. The result of a push for a new vote by one or more members of council, to determine if the will is still there to continue with this deal, using the excuse of the minor changes to bring this to the table. If that's the case, I'd bet that those pushing for the new vote have a good shot of killing the deal. All bets are off as to who wins the vote if this is what's going on behind the scenes. We were talking a 4-3 split in favour before already; maybe now somebody has flipped or is thinking of flipping.

2. Or a united or mostly united council is staging this vote to demonstrate that the city is still determined to do this Coyotes deal, GWI be damned. In this case, the mayor has probably directed staff to do this report, to make a public display of the city's will. This would seem unlikely, though, as I don't know why Scruggs would want this going to a public vote right now with council supposedly divided along a 4-3. If Scruggs is really orchestrating this as a shot at GWI, then you can bet that council isn't as split as we've been led to believe, and the vote will be at least 5-2.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point is of this report and recommendation to council at this time. It's a pointless exercise otherwise as it gives staff no real direction that it wasn't already following. It makes zero sense to open this up for a vote for the small changes that are being proposed, as nothing will be finally totally really finalized on Tuesday.

If it was point two, then I doubt the debate would be in executive session. That said, I would be shocked if the vote went against it.

For the record, I take shots at CoG because they're so ineffectual and have made so many blundering moves. This situation should have been wrapped up with a proven owner in JR for far, far less cost than the current deal contemplates months before this season began. The recent downgrade and rope-a-dope bond issue is just more of the same. In terms of transparent and effective governance, they rank slightly below a sub-par condominium board.

 

[Wham City]

If the Coyotes staying in Phoenix made a lick of business sense this would have been wrapped up ages ago. I have to imagine the NHL's patience is finally being tested, you can't stall for time forever.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

The CoG make Colonel Klink look brilliant. They are not only proposing they give money that they will ne3ver recover, they have doomed themselves to paying higher interest on every single bond issue they have from now until who knows when. And when the revenues do not cover the interest payments, they could be downgraded again. And again. And again. Once they get down below the A series of ratings, they become junk bonds for corporate investors which means they will have extreme difficulty in issuing bonds.

I just wonder if Gi can also use the downgrade as more evidence of the use of taxpayer funds since if they do this deal, their credit rating drops and it will cost taxpayers more to service the debt that gets issued.

If it was point two, then I doubt the debate would be in executive session. That said, I would be shocked if the vote went against it.

For the record, I take shots at CoG because they're so ineffectual and have made so many blundering moves. This situation should have been wrapped up with a proven owner in JR for far, far less cost than the current deal contemplates months before this season began. The recent downgrade and rope-a-dope bond issue is just more of the same. In terms of transparent and effective governance, they rank slightly below a sub-par condominium board.

I wouldn't rate them that high......

 

[HamiltonFan]

The CoG make Colonel Klink look brilliant. They are not only proposing they give money that they will ne3ver recover, they have doomed themselves to paying higher interest on every single bond issue they have from now until who knows when. And when the revenues do not cover the interest payments, they could be downgraded again. And again. And again. Once they get down below the A series of ratings, they become junk bonds for corporate investors which means they will have extreme difficulty in issuing bonds.

I just wonder if Gi can also use the downgrade as more evidence of the use of taxpayer funds since if they do this deal, their credit rating drops and it will cost taxpayers more to service the debt that gets issued.






I wouldn't rate them that high......

This point has been pretty much ignored so far, but it's a very important one. What is the approximate extra cost per year to COG resulting from the downgrade? What is the average amount of bonds issued in a typical year by the COG? This number then needs to be multiplied by the difference in percentage that these new bonds would be rated at. In other words, their new downgraded (AA1?) percentage minus the percentage they would have received with their old rating before this coyotes mess. Does anyone know these approximate numbers?

 

[MountainHawk]

This point has been pretty much ignored so far, but it's a very important one. What is the approximate extra cost per year to COG resulting from the downgrade? What is the average amount of bonds issued in a typical year by the COG? This number then needs to be multiplied by the difference in percentage that these new bonds would be rated at. In other words, their new downgraded (AA1?) percentage minus the percentage they would have received with their old rating before this coyotes mess. Does anyone know these approximate numbers?

I think they were downgraded from Aa1 to Aa2, which isn't really a significant downgrade. Googling quickly, states with Aa1 bonds seem to be paying a spread of 1.1-1.6%, and Aa2 bonds the spread looks more like 1.2-1.8%.

 

[Killion]

There must be more to it than the $10M. It wouldn't do MH any good unless it also came with......say......an escape clause.

You read the fine print Dado, as did I. Saint Mathew the Prophet & Necromancer can BAIL OUT taking the team with if that clause is disrupted in even the most minor of fashion. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a hairdressers appointment with Roland-Roland of the Berlin Oper' which Im not looking forward to.

They had me too, Casual Fan, and I've only been practicing law for 24 years. I thought it was inconceivable that the bonds would not be issued in December. It had all the outward appearances of a locked-down deal. Now, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what might happen next.

Im no Lawyer, but I too was stunned but the COG's failure to move post Dec 14, running to the Underwriters & slamming the door. Something really stinks, and I fear we may be pointing the finger in the wrong direction. Id' share, however my councils retainer needs topping up as I just spent a packet on yet more accusations of plagiarism & copywrite infringements with a certain music publisher out of NYC. Midnight Special this you mothr..... . I need to lie down for awhile.

Does the COG have any possible recourse if the NHL is forced to pull the plug?

Yepp. PM Mork from Ork (above) and Sue Everyone.

I'd be interested in such a discussion. I was recently part of a discussion that killed a product that at one point shown great promise but failed to gain traction and bled red ink for several years.

As would I. And MountainHawk?.Please dont paint Canadians with a single brush. Some of us up here love & revere our American Cousins & care deeply for their welfare. I have dual citizenship & make most of my living in the US. It really pisses me off to read xenophobic comments on hf going north to south or vice-versa. In every single case, be it Atlanta, Phoenix, Miami or Columbus, HAMILTON, WINNIPEG or QUEBEC CITY OWNERSHIP & ownership alone is the over-riding arch nemesis for the lost potential & dream. People wanna point fingers at the culprits?. Start with the NHL & its too fast too quick get rich or die tryin methodologys. And no, its not Bettman. The problems systemic & involves the power brokers within the BOG's, dating back to Clarence Campbell & Ziegler.

 

[Melrose Munch]

You read the fine print Dado, as did I. Saint Mathew the Prophet & Necromancer can BAIL OUT taking the team with if that clause is disrupted in even the most minor of fashion. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a hairdressers appointment with Roland-Roland of the Berlin Oper' which Im not looking forward to.



Im no Lawyer, but I too was stunned but the COG's failure to move post Dec 14, running to the Underwriters & slamming the door. Something really stinks, and I fear we may be pointing the finger in the wrong direction. Id' share, however my councils retainer needs topping up as I just spent a packet on yet more accusations of plagiarism & copywrite infringements with a certain music publisher out of NYC. Midnight Special this you mothr..... . I need to lie down for awhile.




Yepp. PM Mork from Ork (above) and Sue Everyone.



As would I. And MountainHawk?.Please dont paint Canadians with a single brush. Some of us up here love & revere our American Cousins & care deeply for their welfare. I have dual citizenship & make most of my living in the US. It really pisses me off to read xenophobic comments on hf going north to south or vice-versa. In every single case, be it Atlanta, Phoenix, Miami or Columbus, HAMILTON, WINNIPEG or QUEBEC CITY OWNERSHIP & ownership alone is the over-riding arch nemesis for the lost potential & dream. People wanna point fingers at the culprits?. Start with the NHL & its too fast too quick get rich or die tryin methodologys. And no, its not Bettman. The problems systemic & involves the power brokers within the BOG's, dating back to Clarence Campbell & Ziegler.

True. And besides, its not like the six we have are attempting to change the situation.

 

[Kismet]

On the "major and growing markets"...market size is just one piece of the puzzle. The potential market for New Coke was HUGE, but nobody wanted to buy the product.

 

[roccerfeller]

I think they were downgraded from Aa1 to Aa2, which isn't really a significant downgrade. Googling quickly, states with Aa1 bonds seem to be paying a spread of 1.1-1.6%, and Aa2 bonds the spread looks more like 1.2-1.8%.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain the recent Moody rating (like the one that just came out) was A1

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Does the timing of the special meeting vote (1 pm vs. the usual 7 pm) seem strange to anyone else?

IIRC, this is the first Coyotes-related vote that has been scheduled for earlier in the day.

 

[Killion]

Mod: deleted.

True. And besides, its not like the six we have are attempting to change the situation.

Bingo. Where are the Canucks, Flames, the Oil, Sens, Leafs & Habs's?.

On the "major and growing markets"...market size is just one piece of the puzzle. The potential market for New Coke was HUGE, but nobody wanted to buy the product.

And so a different outcome should be expected when you hand a 10,000 piece Jigsaw to a Blindman?.

So how does Phoenix keep those young fans interested in the game, when they don't really attend the games, so that when they become consumers they buy tickets and keep the cycle going?

I would suggest you simply Google "Minor Hockey in Phoenix Az" for the answer to that question. Winning the Golden Ticket to the NHL at the expense of another community is a pyrrhic victory dontchathink?.