Phoenix XLVIII: Of Mice and Lieberman

[Cryogenic Man]

There is no profit, in Jamison's case it's the blind leading the blinds. Those investors that jamison has are millionaires, I wonder how these people become millionaires? It is just shocking.

Well most millionaires become that way, by srewing someone along the way. Very rare those that become that way legitimately. In this case the way it seems to me, is the only ones that are really getting screwed over are the NHL.

 

[AllByDesign]

If you mean literally, yeah I get it, it should be the other way around, it's messed up. Otherwise, I don't understand what you mean by that.

Not litteraly, my friend. Someone who flips a house is part investor part contractor. They buy a "fixer upper" in a nice neighborhood. With a combination of market adjustment, re-design, and sweat equity the investor sells the house for a profit.

 

[AllByDesign]

There is no profit, in Jamison's case it's the blind leading the blinds. Those investors that jamison has are millionaires, I wonder how these people become millionaires? It is just shocking.

Most people build their wealth through hard work and great planning, while some are just born into the family of whom I just described.

The statement you made was completely baseless.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I'll take the over for $50



http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/westsideinsider/161150

The BOG is only a formaity. They announced the move to Winnipeg before the BOG had approved anything.

 

[TheLegend]

Posted by viper0220:

What do you guys think of this.
http://www.dailytribune.com/article/...ey-(with-video)

The NHL is making record revenues.

Sounds like this reporter has an axe to grind on Bettman.

 

[Coyotes89]

Hate to burst all your bubbles but the Coyotes are staying...

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[Undertakerqc]

Hate to burst all your bubbles but the Coyotes are staying...

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We shall see my friend.... we shall see... but the time is ticking for a local deal...

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Is there a COG council meeting scheduled for next Tuesday? If there's going to be another vote, it will probably be then.

 

[TheLegend]

Is there a COG council meeting scheduled for next Tuesday? If there's going to be another vote, it will probably be then.

Anything that requires a vote must be made public 72 hours prior. It would be posted as an agenda to the city's web site.

 

[Fourier]

Hate to burst all your bubbles but the Coyotes are staying...

mod edit

You may want to take a brief look at kdb's op in this thread. In the over 100K posts on this topic you will quickly discover why many of us remain skeptical about anything to do with this sale.

One would hope that one way or the other that this is resolved soon. But again, for many of us such hope has been crushed more times than we would care to name.

That said, as a Coyote fan you have far more at stake than I do so all I can do is wish you best of luck and hope that you are enjoying the playoffs.

 

[Mungman]

Hate to burst all your bubbles but the Coyotes are staying... this is the most pointless thread ever

Geez, why couldn't you have just come and told us that forty eight threads ago, that jem woulda saved us all the last three years of our lives.

MOD

 

[OthmarAmmann]

I really think this is going to one of the last threads. I'd say there is about a 95% chance Jamison closes the deal officially in the next 3 weeks. Plus the Coyotes will likely make it to the conference finals.

All in all it will amount to the best year in Coyotes history. That's how I see it going down at least.

There's no end to this story

Not a chance my friend, I put the over under at fifteen more threads.

$100 on the over. Assuming GJ gets the deal done there will be a ton of threads regarding the situation every year around COG's budget process. I foresee a mayor and council castigating their predecessors and the NHL annually. It will be a new Easter tradition.

I wrote this just recently in another BOH thread. The reason i'm also bringing it up here is because I am really trying to understand. According to numbers given through the years and compiled up in that other thread. The Cog owes $262 million on their arena. Going by those numbers this is what I wrote and am asking.

<snip>

So, If anyone could help enlighten it would be great.

Since you used Hocking numbers your analysis is all pretty much in the realm of nursery tales. You probably should've started with "once upon a time"

The hypothesized deal with GJ is far better for the city than the MH one was. They're still going to get hooped though.

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[cbcwpg]

The Money Pit - Two weeks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLcjUmBncZ8

 

[cbcwpg]

Assuming GJ gets the deal done there will be a ton of threads regarding the situation every year around COG's budget process. I foresee a mayor and council castigating their predecessors and the NHL annually. It will be a new Easter tradition.

Agreed. This specific thread may one day come to a close, but this topic "The Coyotes in Glendale" will never end.

Immediately after a sale to Jamison, it will be:

- just how much is the CoG paying?
- how much are taxes going up?
- details of the lease
- is there an out clause?
- what happens if the CoG claims BK?
- why are they not selling out with a new owner?

And then, as you say, there will be an annual debate about the AMF.

- why does the CoG have to keep paying it?
- how can the CoG get out of it?
- Jamison wants even more money, so now what does the CoG do?

For as long as the Coyotes exist, there will be debate as to should they exist.

 

[Material Defender]

My 2 cents for May 8th: "There is still some work to do to finalize the deal. It's a complicated process still, we're positive on making this happen in a very near future."

Déjà vu.

 

[JMT21]

Agreed. This specific thread may one day come to a close, but this topic "The Coyotes in Glendale" will never end.

Immediately after a sale to Jamison, it will be:

- just how much is the CoG paying?
- how much are taxes going up?
- details of the lease
- is there an out clause?
- what happens if the CoG claims BK?
- why are they not selling out with a new owner?

And then, as you say, there will be an annual debate about the AMF.

- why does the CoG have to keep paying it?
- how can the CoG get out of it?
- Jamison wants even more money, so now what does the CoG do?

For as long as the Coyotes exist, there will be debate as to should they exist.

1) If the rumored agreement is accurate the COG will pay close to 300M over the next 20 years.
2) Increased by 0.8%.... against Arizona law to use raised taxes to subsidize private enterprise
3) anybody's guess but COG will overpay.
4) GJ and his investors would be borderline insane if an out clause wasn't included.
5) A change to lease would be mandated if BK was on the table
6) Not sure I understand the question.

7) Future councils would seemingly be tied to the decisions of past councils... yikes
8) Can they get out of it? BK would be a serious possibility to even consider it I'd imagine
9) It would be up to GJ to shake the pockets of his investors.... see the Nashville predicament.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

And then, as you say, there will be an annual debate about the AMF.

- why does the CoG have to keep paying it?
- how can the CoG get out of it?
- Jamison wants even more money, so now what does the CoG do?

How about a new mayor and council trying to find creative ways to increase revenue... perhaps a 80% municipal marginal income tax on earnings over $600,000? Probably not allowed under AZ law but it would be entertaining to see such an idea floated. The AMT was originally devised for a similar purpose in the 60s.

I figure I'll have to get into a 12 step program to break my habit.

 

[kdb209]

Anything that requires a vote must be made public 72 hours prior. It would be posted as an agenda to the city's web site.

Actually, the AZ open meetings law requires only a 24 hr advance notice.

2. General public.

C. Except as provided in subsections D and E of this section, meetings shall not be held without at least twenty-four hours' notice to the members of the public body and to the general public. The twenty-four hour period includes Saturdays if the public has access to the physical posted location in addition to any website posting, but excludes Sundays and other holidays prescribed in section 1-301.

 

[TheLegend]

Actually, the AZ open meetings law requires only a 24 hr advance notice.

Thanks for that kdb.... I had seen others use the 72 hour figure. Might be because CoG usually posts agendas for their Tuesday meetings by the Friday before. And as the satute implies... Sundays don't count.

 

[Killion]

How about a new mayor and council trying to find creative ways to increase revenue... perhaps a 80% municipal marginal income tax on earnings over $600,000? Probably not allowed under AZ law but it would be entertaining to see such an idea floated. The AMT was originally devised for a similar purpose in the 60s.

... or perhaps instituting a "Visiting Players Tax"?. Currently about 13-14 states & municipalities employ such a system, which also includes concert & event promoters, golf, tennis, motorsports etc. According to a study by KPMG that was drafted several years ago in Ontario when their was much angst over the weak Canadian Dollar, Ottawa & others looking for relief from local, provincial & federal authorities, the SkyDome debacle etc, it was estimated that each team could receive close to $15M a year with a "visiting player taxation" scheme. There are however cross border (US/Cdn exemptions of various sorts that negate collection) issues, costs in setting up such a system, obviously serious resistance from the leagues & players associations etc.

However, if these guys, including concert & event promoters are the direct beneficiaries of a municipal authorities largesse' in providing them with the platform & stage in which to reap reward, then they shouldnt be complaining about the taxman demanding a small recompense for doing so.The Phoenix Suns, DB's, Cards & Coyote players pay about 4.54% to municipal & state authorities, amongst the lowest in the US, North Carolina & Milwaukee nearly double at 7.75% (Leafs/Raptors = 11.16%). Even more interesting when you consider "Winning Percentages", the cap systems, free agency, short careers, only so much time to cash-in. Take the NBA for example; in 2010-11, the 10 teams with the lowest tax burdens had a 57.8% winning percentage, while the 10 teams with the highest tax burdens had a 39.9% winning percentage. Player agents pay close attention to "stuff" like that, as do concert & event promoters if their playing in the bigs'. You want to keep as much as possible. If implimented, pretty sure youd see the likes of old tax attorney & legendary extortionist Jerry Reinsdorf headiin on down to the Grapefruit League trailing a cloud of angry dust but so what? Whatve' you done for Arizona Jerry?.

There are ways & means to securing funds from the players/leagues that Glendales not even considering, I suppose in fear of driving them out altogether after building them all state of the art facilities, however, thats one card Id be playing & very publicly indeed, placing the onus of responsibility back where it belongs. Additionally, if Jamisons seriously "for real" here, then he'd best be buying up Westgate & deploying the CFD (which will require Bidwell/Cards & UofP Stadium & COG considerations), charging for parking, marketing the Hell out of the building, wallpapering the joint with sponsorship signage & the like ala Michael Yormark down in Sunrise. There are absolutely ways & means to creatively solve this problem beyond a black & white case of flat out over-payments on an AMF over 20yrs, extorted from a beaten up & badly wounded municipality with the constant threat of relocation looming over their heads. With the precedent already set, the gun locked & loaded, no way does the franchise owner then train its sites off of its' victim, not ever, more never enough. Pretty messed up.

 

[Cryogenic Man]

$100 on the over. Assuming GJ gets the deal done there will be a ton of threads regarding the situation every year around COG's budget process. I foresee a mayor and council castigating their predecessors and the NHL annually. It will be a new Easter tradition.




Since you used Hocking numbers your analysis is all pretty much in the realm of nursery tales. You probably should've started with "once upon a time"

The hypothesized deal with GJ is far better for the city than the MH one was. They're still going to get hooped though.

mod edit

Seems to me you took the easy way out, otherwise, as others have done, why even attempt an answer?

Please explain to me where Hocking's numbers are at? other than the tax increase intake? where. Let's assume you're right and he made that number (the tax intake' which I don't believe is his personally) look even better than it should be, than it's even worse than I thought.

Considering all those numbers, there is no way the Coyotes stay past next season, and If it could be done after this season, it will be.

 

[Cryogenic Man]

Let's even assume, and I'm being so freakin optimistic, that Greg Jamison's 20 year intake is $1 Billion. OK? $1 Billion.

The Coyotes operational costs will be $1.8 Billion during the same time span.

Is someone telling me that the NHL will give nearly $800 Million to the Coyotes just to survive during that time span??

Not a chance the BOG goes for that. Not a chance.

 

[NHLfan4life]

Let's even assume, and I'm being so freakin optimistic, that Greg Jamison's 20 year intake is $1 Billion. OK? $1 Billion.

The Coyotes operational costs will be $1.8 Billion during the same time span.

Is someone telling me that the NHL will give nearly $800 Million to the Coyotes just to survive during that time span??

Not a chance the BOG goes for that. Not a chance.

There are just too many variables to even assume anything at this point. You're going to drive yourself crazy.

And a lot of speculation has the Coyotes' current situation as a static business model. I would assume (there is that word again) that things will change for the better so the ability to make money is there over time. They just have to since nobody has gotten it right yet.

 

[powerstuck]

Let's even assume, and I'm being so freakin optimistic, that Greg Jamison's 20 year intake is $1 Billion. OK? $1 Billion.

The Coyotes operational costs will be $1.8 Billion during the same time span.

Is someone telling me that the NHL will give nearly $800 Million to the Coyotes just to survive during that time span??

Not a chance the BOG goes for that. Not a chance.

Only thing I can say is that 20 year is heck of a long period of time.

If you bought a house today, you cannot estimate how much you will end up paying it in next 20 years unless you sign a 20 year fixed interest rate, and even then.

 

[Cryogenic Man]

There are just too many variables to even assume anything at this point. You're going to drive yourself crazy.

And a lot of speculation has the Coyotes' current situation as a static business model. I would assume (there is that word again) that things will change for the better so the ability to make money is there over time. They just have to since nobody has gotten it right yet.

Actually I'm not driving myself crazy or anywhere for that matter!

I'm just simply trying to throw out the big picture. Every one else seems to be going micro.

There is no speculation of it getting better. That's drivel given to try and justify purchasing a team which is not economically viable.

I'm pretty sure in 2003 people were on these type of boards being as optimistic as some are today. It's 9 year later. 9 years.