Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater

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Gump Hasek

Spleen Merchant
Nov 9, 2005
10,167
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222 Tudor Terrace
IT makes no difference whatsoever whether the bondholder is Hulsizer or some institutional investor.

OPTICALLY, it actually is better, since Hulsizer will have then put up 100% of his own money. Isn't that what so many partisans on this Board have been screaming for? Just put up his own money, and they'd all shut up? [I doubt they would, BTW, to be frank about it.

:help:

The argument has long been that Hulsizer is putting up (IIRC) $70 million dollars and that the COG was needed to issue $100 million-ish of bonds to finance the parking lot purchase. If Hulsizer were to buy the bonds and put up his $70 mln cash as well to buy the team, in essence he would be financing the 100 million dollars that the city would be returning to him immediately in exchange for the lot rights. To claim on one hand that the deal is only financially viable if someone purchases the lot, yet on the other hand you now are willing to finance said lot at 9%-ish annually seems quite hypocritical. It is akin to blackmail of the taxpayers. You can keep your team here if we swap 100 mln cash for paper.

If he really has an additional $100 mln to finance the lot, then he should buy the team, lot included, with his $170 million and then lease the lot back to the city on an annual basis. That way taxpayers are not on the hook upfront for the one hundred million that MH is so graciously willing to loan them... via the use of the COG credit facility. No gift clause concerns then.
 

borno87

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
334
0
He would be providing all of his own cash under your scenario. HE would be buying the bonds.

Any promissory note also comes with interest.

Buying bonds and taking back a promissory note is precisely the same thing. That is effectively what bonds are - promises to pay money.


Why would he "force" the COG to pay interest? Well, firstly, no one would be forcing anyone. None of these scenarios, including the current one, involves anyone being FORCED to do anything. As such, you are starting from the wrong starting point right off the bat. In the above scenario, he would be receiving interest payments because COG would now be in possession of the parking revenues - the asset that he gave to them in exchange for the note.
:)

He would essentially be forcing the CoG into the interest payments because of his insistence that the bond issue mechanism be used to finance the sale. If he can put up $116M to purchase the bonds and complete the sale, WHY IS HE SELLING THE PARKING RIGHTS TO THE COG????????????? He could very easily "monetize" (and again I will bring up the point that you ignored - monetizing the parking rights is essentially MH just transferring the risk and uncertainty of the parkeing revenues to the CoG and Glendale tax payers) and sell the parking rights to, hmmm I don't know... Maybe a private company who specializes in owning and operating PARKING LOTS. Surely there is a company that would be salivating over the opportunity to own all the parking rights to the events in Westgate... If he really wanted to get this deal done today, he would enter into an agreement to sell the parking rights to such a private company, cut the CoG out of the deal completely (outside of the Arena MGMT fee) and pay for the team himself. My feeling the reason this hasn't happened is because a private company would not value the parking rights as highly as the CoG if they were actually the ones acquiring the rights (spare me the "parking study semantics").


It is only even arguably "exploitation" if you start from the ASSUMPTION that the parking rights that Hulsizer would be selling to the COG are worth less than what they are paying (and even then, it is only exploitation if you think that all business negotiations are exploitation - a pretty extreme position IMO). Making the assumption that the parking rights are not worth what they have been stated to be worth (using extremely conservative assumptions as the consultants were, mind you) is not a very supportable position IMO; the fact is, there is not a single person on this Board (even the folks who are loudest at denouncing the idea of $100M for parking lots) who has been able to make a sound argument - heck, any kind of argument - that they are worth less, and certainly GWI has offered precisely zip in this regard. All we have left to support that assumption is "heck, how can parking lots be worth $100M??!?", which is the position of many on the Board. The answer is the same as it has always been: "you'd be very surprised".

Even if the valuation of the parking rights in the current agreement are accurate (which is arguable because it doesn't seem to account for any realistic kind of risk associated with those revenue streams) the fact is that MH is essentially forcing the COG to be the buyers of the parking rights via the looming possibility that Glendale would lose the team if MH walks away. I will admit that it is not out of the ordinary for a municipality to generate revenue via parking revenues, but I would argue that is is uncommon for them to finance such an operation via $116M bond issues. It's brain dead simple GSC, if he can afford to the entire purchase price on his own, why does he need the CoG's money to complete the sale? In the hypothetical scenario we are debating, the only reason would be is that he will collect $100's of millions more in interest than he ever would if a private company purchased the "monetized" parking rights. Interest that would be coming directly from the pockets of Glendale citizens, and that my friend would NOT be good optics in the community.

So, without starting with that assumption, you have one party selling an asset to another party, and instead of getting paid upfront, you have them accepting a promise to pay instead.

IT makes no difference whatsoever whether the bondholder is Hulsizer or some institutional investor.

Technically you are correct in this statement, however.... C'MON GSC! Look at this from the perspective of an actual person. MH is asking the CoG for $100M in exchange for parking rights. the CoG will pay MH with his own money raised from a bond issue, plus $100's of millions of dollars in interest. The difference being if it was some instutional investor purchasing the bonds is that MH would not be the one benefiting from the unnecessary bond issue given the fact that MH establishes he is capable of completing the sale on his own if he were to buy the bonds.

OPTICALLY, it actually is better, since Hulsizer will have then put up 100% of his own money. Isn't that what so many partisans on this Board have been screaming for? Just put up his own money, and they'd all shut up? [I doubt they would, BTW, to be frank about it. ;)]

:)


If MH completes this deal by purchasing the bonds himself, I don't know what else to call this cluster**** other than extortion. In light of the fairly obvious alternative described above (purchasing the whole kit and kaboodle himself and monetizing the rights to a private company), I really don't see how you could objectively argue otherwise. With $100M's in interest sitting there for the taking, why do you think MH hasn't jumped on this juicy opportunity yet?
 
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PitbulI

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
416
44
What happened that we're now talking about MH buying the bonds?

Not even considering the legallity of buying bonds that will come back to you initially once you've bought them but how would that look?

MH gives the COG 100 million dollars. The COG then gives MH back that money with the promise that they will now pay his alter ego 100 million plus interest over the next 30 years? WOW.

That is so messed up.

Here's one. MH puts up the 170 million originally asked by the NHL. The COG then covers the losses that the NHL wants after the 170 purchase price. The COG then gives MH his egg management fee every year. MH now owns this magical parking lot right? So he charges for it now. Now the COG has stated that the parking lot is a goldmine so wow, MH can make his money back fairly quickly (10-12 years by Hocking Estimates :sarcasm: ) .
 

BrianSTC

Registered User
May 23, 2007
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Winnipeg

Fidel Astro

Registered User
Aug 26, 2010
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www.witchpolice.com
The GWI is the only entity the "believes" or "may think" the transaction is "possibly" illegal. Your analogy is misplaced because you assume the deal is illegal because such an assumption no doubt serves your purpose.

Oh, come on. You assume the deal is legal because "such an assumption no doubt serves your purpose."

Do you honestly believe that everything is on the up-and-up with this deal? That it's 100% legal? Seriously?

I don't care about GWI's political agenda (and they obviously have one), but I'm quite certain the people who run that organization didn't just wake up one day and say "I want to **** with the Phoenix Coyotes." Something about the deal struck them as illegal, so they pursued it.

The reason I assume the deal is illegal is because if it was totally legit, the CoG would have instantly produced documents proving everything was kosher. GWI could have been satisfied, Hulsizer could've bought the team, and you could be renewing your season tickets.

That hasn't happened. There seems to be a lot of stalling on the CoG/Hulsizer side of things, which (to me) doesn't seem like it should be necessary if everything is legal. It's already April and the deal still hasn't happened.

All GWI has done is say they will sue if the deal goes through in its current form, or unless they can be convinced otherwise. If the CoG is convinced it's in the right, it should just go ahead with the deal. As many have mentioned on here, GWI is pretty powerless. All they can do is sue if/when the deal closes, and if the CoG is confident of the deal's legality, who cares? Surely if they can provide irrefutable evidence that it's all legal, they have absolutely nothing to fear in court.

Also, GWI isn't the only group of people who feel the deal is illegal. Have you read any of the (probably by now) thousands of articles written about this debacle in newspapers and magazines across Canada and the US? It seems like there's a lot of skepticism out there. I know many Coyotes fans like to think the big bad Canadian media has an anti-sunbelt agenda (or some other ********), but, conspiracy theories aside, I don't think so many respected journalists (and some not-so-respected ones) would be questioning the deal if the CoG was acting so obviously within the law.

I could present an analogy of you being subject to a citizen arrest for something that someone else thinks may be wrong. I suspect you would not appreciate 1) that an unempowered individual attempts to hold you subject to 2) their personal beliefs with a result of 3) no accountability if they are mistaken. I submit that situation is more in kind with how many citizens tend to view the GWI's actions here

I'm pretty sure any proof that the deal is legal would completely destroy the GWI's reputation (especially since this whole thing has been played out in public). Also, wouldn't there be some kind of penalty for bringing a frivolous lawsuit?

As for your "citizen's arrest" analogy, I disagree with you. The GWI is not "arresting" anyone. They're drawing attention to the fact that something potentially illegal is going on. As in my original 'crime' scenario... the GWI is the lady across the street who sees a shifty-looking guy scoping out parked cars and decides to say "hey, shifty-looking guy! If you don't get away from those cars, I'm going to call the cops!"

Nothing wrong with that. If the guy doesn't listen and turns out not to be a car thief, he should be able to prove that when the cops show up.

And, when is it common practice for a duly elected governmental body, that has negotiated a deal for its community in an open forum, to have to go to court to enforce its democratic decision to appease an unelected and marginal "watchdog" group? I hope that is not what my country is coming down to, where special interest groups can dictate the will of elected officials and the majority of citizens they represent.

The CoG doesn't have to appease the GWI. What they should do (again, assuming they are convinced of the deal's legality) is say "**** the GWI," go right ahead and close the deal, and if the "unelected and marginal watchdog group" decides to raise a fuss, fight back with the facts (again, assuming there is factual evidence the deal is legal).

There are likely fringe special interest groups protesting about every single government action that takes place at any level. I'm sure in over 90 per cent of the cases, they are just straight-up ignored by governments. There's nothing wrong with what GWI is doing and, again, if the deal with Hulsizer isn't breaking any laws, the CoG should have no difficulty getting rid of such a group.

Also, you're assuming that keeping the Coyotes is the will of the 'majority' of the Glendale residents. Is there any evidence that this is the case? Please link us to this information if so. All I've seen are easily-manipulated online surveys (which allow users to vote multiple times), and there hasn't been a lot of evidence that residents care about the team in large numbers, based on the turnout at key council meetings, etc.

As to what I know about the uses of the Job? I would say as a Valley resident for nearly 20 years, I know considerably more than you do about the likelihood of economic fallout over the Coyotes leaving. I tried to explain this isn't a development in the CBD with a lot of other economic drivers to bail out an area. The entire development was premised on hockey and an arena. The area is already hard hit by other factors. There isn't anything else to gain traction upon. Will it be a $500 million dollar hit? That I don't know. But its effect will be deep and long lasting. I will be here to see it. I don't you will pay any further attention to the matter so long as the Coyotes relocate.

You're right. I won't pay any attention to the matter once the Coyotes relocate. Why would I care? Why would anyone care, aside from the people who live in Glendale? I think that's part of the problem here... a lot of Coyotes fans keep playing up the "but the arena is going to empty and the area is going to suffer" card.

My response to that is so what?

Look, I'm not trying to be insensitive, but crying about the potential prosperity (or lack thereof) of some suburban development is not going to change anything. If the NHL determines that the team needs to relocate, the league is not going to change it's mind because someone is upset about the impact relocation will have on some ****ing shopping district.

"Well, we were going to move the team to Winnipeg, because there was no owner in Glendale willing to pay for it, the team had horrible attendance, and it was hemmorhaging for years... but jeez, I didn't realize it might set back some local merchants a little bit, so I guess we'll have to keep the team where it is."

Do you honestly think an NHL spokesman is going to say something like that? The "Logan Trick" doesn't work every time.

...and besides, every city in every sport that goes through a relocation is negatively impacted afterwards. None of the other cities seem to have a lot of difficulty picking up the pieces and carrying on, and in many cases, they've actually improved conditions and have acquired new franchises a few years down the road.

No sympathy.
 

LT_Canadian

Registered User
Jul 13, 2003
563
0
Thunder Bay ON Can
So much for the NHL having a heart and announcing the move now so the fans have Friday to say goodbye.

Oh well I'm sure someone will buy the other half of the bonds in 2 weeks. Oh ya and I'm sure GWI will back down because they don't have the money to go to court:sarcasm:
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
If he really wanted to get this deal done today, he would enter into an agreement to sell the parking rights to such a private company, cut the CoG out of the deal completely (outside of the Arena MGMT fee) and pay for the team himself. My feeling the reason this hasn't happened is because a private company would not value the parking rights as highly as the CoG if they were actually the ones acquiring the rights (spare me the "parking study semantics").

How accurate the parking rights valuation turns out to be or whether a private company would offer the same amount is irrelevant to the transaction itself. The defensibility of the estimated value is at issue. I believe Glendale would easily prove the payment is equitable for the revenue rights received.

Sadly, each day it grows less likely that we will ever see a complaint filed so we will never have a verdict rendered to validate our positions.
 

Jesus Christ Horburn

Registered User
Aug 22, 2008
13,942
1
Oh well I'm sure someone will buy the other half of the bonds in 2 weeks. Oh ya and I'm sure GWI will back down because they don't have the money to go to court:sarcasm:

The thing I haven't been able to understand is why COG hasn't spent the last month trying to come up with a more "legal" way to gift Hulsizer the money.

Clearly the bond sale isn't going to work, so why not go back to the drawing board and try and come up with another strategy? They did it once before when they abandoned the CFD idea in favor of a bond sale, so why not try it again?
 

cbcwpg

Registered User
May 18, 2010
20,289
20,993
Between the Pipes
The thing I haven't been able to understand is why COG hasn't spent the last month trying to come up with a more "legal" way to gift Hulsizer the money.

Clearly the bond sale isn't going to work, so why not go back to the drawing board and try and come up with another strategy? They did it once before when they abandoned the CFD idea in favor of a bond sale, so why not try it again?

Instead of the CoG trying to find some way to skirt the gift clause...

Hulsizer can keep the parking ( since it is paved with gold ), get the NHL to sell the team to him for $70M, and promise to pay the NHL the $100M in the price difference over 30 years. Same result, no GWI involvement, no CoG violating the law.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
How accurate the parking rights valuation turns out to be or whether a private company would offer the same amount is irrelevant to the transaction itself. The defensibility of the estimated value is at issue. I believe Glendale would easily prove the payment is equitable for the revenue rights received.

Sadly, each day it grows less likely that we will ever see a complaint filed so we will never have a verdict rendered to validate our positions.
And each day, it grows more likely that the Bay Area is to be sadly deprived of the bead-selling talents of a certain individual ... :cry:

:naughty:
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
Perhaps I should tweet them suggesting that they release those documents. Based on history, they don't know what to do until I (or someone else online) tweets or emails them.

Your contempt for Goldwater has now crossed into madness. Even if this was posted in jest, which I don’t imagine it was, to suggest that Goldwater is so inept that they take action based on unsolicited e-mails is patently absurd. To further suggest that it is your unsolicited guidance that they follow is pathologically insane.

I am not personally aligned with Goldwater’s political platform nor do I find their PR campaign particularly believable. However, to submit that an origination that has litigated in front of the Arizona and United States Supreme Court requires direction from you via unsolicited e-mails or Twitters is the most ridiculous thing ever posted on HF Boards.
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
And each day, it grows more likely that the Bay Area is to be sadly deprived of the bead-selling talents of a certain individual ... :cry:

:naughty:

I really respect your knowledge, wit, and contributions when you are not off the reservation about Goldwater.

SFO just completed a major renovation of Terminal 2. CasualBeads would have been a natural fit. ;)
 

borno87

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
334
0
How accurate the parking rights valuation turns out to be or whether a private company would offer the same amount is irrelevant to the transaction itself. The defensibility of the estimated value is at issue. I believe Glendale would easily prove the payment is equitable for the revenue rights received.

I agree; what I was attempting to illustrate is the reason why MH wouldn't sell the rights to a private company is because the amount he would receive would almost certainly be less than what he is receiving from CoG. I would guess this option has been looked at as it is reasonable to assume that MH would have pursued this option if it netted him the equal financial benefits that he claims are need to make the deal viable while at the same time cutting the GWI objection out of the picture.
 

JetFan4Ever

Registered User
May 23, 2010
430
93
Really?

Twitter much? Check out ROTJ much? Read some of the taunting on this Board (to say nothing of what has been deleted due to offensiveness)?

Your **generalization** (see below) may be the way you wish it was, and good for you for hoping that to be the case, but there are simply too many people out there who have proven otherwise. There are several people who I know to be true to your statement (and they know who they are), but IMO they are well in the minority. If you want your statement to be true, you should be out there doing something to make it true. Otherwise, your statement is well-intentioned but inaccurate. IMO, of course (but I know I am not the only one who believes so).

** - of course, your statement is a generalization that does not reflect the fact that the "majority" of any population is not really a sports fan of any kind, and consequently cares not at all about these things that we care so deeply about. Even among hockey fans, it is dangerous to make such a generalization about any widely disparate group, unless one has talked to all of them. I accordingly interpret your reference to "vast majority of Winnipeggers" as "vast majority of Winnipeg hockey fans who voice their opinion on this board and other forms of social media".

In one part of your reply you use twitter and other hockey boards to refute his comments, and then in the next breath you denounce him for generalizing across a population without having spoken to everyone.

Wow, so for all these years, pollsters having been speaking to everyone when the conduct their surveys?

If you’re going to use ROTJ as a basis for your generalization, I would suggest you might be subject to tad bit of sampling error.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,219
It makes no difference whatsoever whether the bondholder is Hulsizer or some institutional investor. OPTICALLY, it actually is better, since Hulsizer will have then put up 100% of his own money. Isn't that what so many partisans on this Board have been screaming for? Just put up his own money, and they'd all shut up? [I doubt they would, BTW, to be frank about

From a strictly clinical business perspective I agree with you, however (always a however huh" :laugh:) optically its is odorous to say the least. He'd basically be getting his bread buttered on both sides of the transaction. Again however, from a strictly cold & calculating business perspective, I really dont have a problem with it and in fact have suspected for some time that this was his plan all along, though I dont think he was/is planning to buy 100% of the issue, likely just 50% of them, ameliorating to some extent the concerns expressed below.

If he really has an additional $100 mln to finance the lot, then he should buy the team, lot included, with his $170 million and then lease the lot back to the city on an annual basis. That way taxpayers are not on the hook upfront for the one hundred million that MH is so graciously willing to loan them... via the use of the COG credit facility. No gift clause concerns then.

That would certainly clear the air Gump. The problem of course is that he's got the COG over a barrel & has written what he thinks is a dream ticket, however, even if he does pull it off, it could easily wind up being a waking nightmare. What happens if the COG cant meet the interest payments on the Bonds is forced into BK & reorganization?. They are really stretching this band out, which btw I feel is their right, but I digress....Will the State step up to cover the muni's Bond obligations or will the Feds' have to do so as predicted should such a scenario come to fruition?. There is risk involved in buying the Bonds as we know. The upside at 9% is huge, but the downside is equally worrisome. I agree with your suggestions though, if he's willing to drop close to $200M there were & are other means & methods that would be far more equitable, less taxing in terms of the Gift Clause etc.....

With $100M's in interest sitting there for the taking, why do you think MH hasn't jumped on this juicy opportunity yet?

Excellent post zakakatz. We still dont know for sure that this is his plan, and though Ive' felt its both probable & likely I've refrained from saying so as its purely theoretical. As I stated earlier in response to GSC, from a purely cold hard clinical business perspective in terms of trading paper & seriously getting it coming & going, its clever, and, it does show some serious confidence on Hulsizers part in the market because it is not without risk. Further speculating, if this was/is his plan, then he should have forced the issue at 4-6%, possibly lowered the total to maybe $60M instead of $100M+ & got it done quickly. Upped his $70M to $110M, execute the CFD etc..... At this stage in the game, only he can make this deal happen, and its going to take some retraction on current positions, a feat he seems unwilling to attempt, which leads me to believe that his eyes are much too large for his reach in his insistence in minimizing risk beyond what he actually puts up & in. Depending on ones own moral compass, you could call it usurious, or, you could call it just smart business. If the latter, not quite smart enough & IMHO too clever by half.
 
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GSC2k2*

Guest
In one part of your reply you use twitter and other hockey boards to refute his comments, and then in the next breath you denounce him for generalizing across a population without having spoken to everyone.

Wow, so for all these years, pollsters having been speaking to everyone when the conduct their surveys?

If you’re going to use ROTJ as a basis for your generalization, I would suggest you might be subject to tad bit of sampling error.
I suggest that you missed the part of my post where I said: "I accordingly interpret your reference to "vast majority of Winnipeggers" as "vast majority of Winnipeg hockey fans who voice their opinion on this board and other forms of social media". This negates his attempt at generalization, and makes my observation limited to only what we can actually read.

Not a very good attempt at a rebuttal on your part. As noted above, I had anticipated such a comment from someone and took appropriate action to limit my comments to only those "who voice their opinion on this board and other forms of social media".

Fair point about pollling, mind you. I recognized that as I was writing it. It's kind of irrelevant, though, since I declined to generalize and accordingly limited my observations (and actually allowed the poster a graceful out by assuming him to do so as well).
 

goyotes

Registered User
May 4, 2007
1,811
0
Arizona
Oh, come on. You assume the deal is legal because "such an assumption no doubt serves your purpose."

Do you honestly believe that everything is on the up-and-up with this deal? That it's 100% legal? Seriously?

I don't care about GWI's political agenda (and they obviously have one), but I'm quite certain the people who run that organization didn't just wake up one day and say "I want to **** with the Phoenix Coyotes." Something about the deal struck them as illegal, so they pursued it.

The reason I assume the deal is illegal is because if it was totally legit, the CoG would have instantly produced documents proving everything was kosher. GWI could have been satisfied, Hulsizer could've bought the team, and you could be renewing your season tickets.

That hasn't happened. There seems to be a lot of stalling on the CoG/Hulsizer side of things, which (to me) doesn't seem like it should be necessary if everything is legal. It's already April and the deal still hasn't happened.

All GWI has done is say they will sue if the deal goes through in its current form, or unless they can be convinced otherwise. If the CoG is convinced it's in the right, it should just go ahead with the deal. As many have mentioned on here, GWI is pretty powerless. All they can do is sue if/when the deal closes, and if the CoG is confident of the deal's legality, who cares? Surely if they can provide irrefutable evidence that it's all legal, they have absolutely nothing to fear in court.

Also, GWI isn't the only group of people who feel the deal is illegal. Have you read any of the (probably by now) thousands of articles written about this debacle in newspapers and magazines across Canada and the US? It seems like there's a lot of skepticism out there. I know many Coyotes fans like to think the big bad Canadian media has an anti-sunbelt agenda (or some other ********), but, conspiracy theories aside, I don't think so many respected journalists (and some not-so-respected ones) would be questioning the deal if the CoG was acting so obviously within the law.



I'm pretty sure any proof that the deal is legal would completely destroy the GWI's reputation (especially since this whole thing has been played out in public). Also, wouldn't there be some kind of penalty for bringing a frivolous lawsuit?

As for your "citizen's arrest" analogy, I disagree with you. The GWI is not "arresting" anyone. They're drawing attention to the fact that something potentially illegal is going on. As in my original 'crime' scenario... the GWI is the lady across the street who sees a shifty-looking guy scoping out parked cars and decides to say "hey, shifty-looking guy! If you don't get away from those cars, I'm going to call the cops!"

Nothing wrong with that. If the guy doesn't listen and turns out not to be a car thief, he should be able to prove that when the cops show up.



The CoG doesn't have to appease the GWI. What they should do (again, assuming they are convinced of the deal's legality) is say "**** the GWI," go right ahead and close the deal, and if the "unelected and marginal watchdog group" decides to raise a fuss, fight back with the facts (again, assuming there is factual evidence the deal is legal).

There are likely fringe special interest groups protesting about every single government action that takes place at any level. I'm sure in over 90 per cent of the cases, they are just straight-up ignored by governments. There's nothing wrong with what GWI is doing and, again, if the deal with Hulsizer isn't breaking any laws, the CoG should have no difficulty getting rid of such a group.

Also, you're assuming that keeping the Coyotes is the will of the 'majority' of the Glendale residents. Is there any evidence that this is the case? Please link us to this information if so. All I've seen are easily-manipulated online surveys (which allow users to vote multiple times), and there hasn't been a lot of evidence that residents care about the team in large numbers, based on the turnout at key council meetings, etc.



You're right. I won't pay any attention to the matter once the Coyotes relocate. Why would I care? Why would anyone care, aside from the people who live in Glendale? I think that's part of the problem here... a lot of Coyotes fans keep playing up the "but the arena is going to empty and the area is going to suffer" card.

My response to that is so what?

Look, I'm not trying to be insensitive, but crying about the potential prosperity (or lack thereof) of some suburban development is not going to change anything. If the NHL determines that the team needs to relocate, the league is not going to change it's mind because someone is upset about the impact relocation will have on some ****ing shopping district.

"Well, we were going to move the team to Winnipeg, because there was no owner in Glendale willing to pay for it, the team had horrible attendance, and it was hemmorhaging for years... but jeez, I didn't realize it might set back some local merchants a little bit, so I guess we'll have to keep the team where it is."

Do you honestly think an NHL spokesman is going to say something like that? The "Logan Trick" doesn't work every time.

...and besides, every city in every sport that goes through a relocation is negatively impacted afterwards. None of the other cities seem to have a lot of difficulty picking up the pieces and carrying on, and in many cases, they've actually improved conditions and have acquired new franchises a few years down the road.

No sympathy.

To answer your question, yes I honestly believe the deal is completely legal. Moreover, my opinion is shared by every other law firm that has looked at this deal and put themselves in harms way for a malpractice claim if their opinions are wrong. The GWI's untested view of the deal is shaped by their political leanings, IMO. None of that matters, however, as that is what judges are for.

The GWI's actions have only led to an increase in the bond interest rate. To say the CoG must go to court to get the court's blessing on a transaction they believe empowered to enter into and which they believe is perfectly legal, is a ridiculous position. Something about seperation of powers comes to mind. Executive branch, don't act unless the judicial branch says you can. Simply silly. It is up to the GWI to challenge this deal. They have not. We can speculate as to why. I have my opinion, I'm sure you have yours.

No sympathy requested, nor expected. Like I said, that and a $1 will buy you a cup of coffee (or a hot dog at a Coyote game;))
 
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LT_Canadian

Registered User
Jul 13, 2003
563
0
Thunder Bay ON Can
I think there are many Winnipeggers that empathize with the fans in Phoenix and then there are a small amount that have always been against the NHL moving the Jets to the desert and have this strong anger. Then there are many who fall in the middle. That's where I am. I do feel bad for the fans BUT I joined the Coyotes fan forum years ago and even before we ever thought of getting a team back many of the posters just had this disrepect for Winnipeg and no knowledge what so ever of Winnipegs past. They disregarded anything we ever posted about how the NHL never fought for us and would throw out the usual garbage about how small Winnipeg was, how cold it was, how we never supoorted our team and some of us just started to fight back.

One thing I noticed, there were probably more Winnipeg people on the fan forum than Phoenix people and now if you go there, barely anyone posts anything because most of the Winnipeg people have left and there might be a dozen locals left...lol.

I actually liked the whole Coyotes thing in the desert and I'm still a fan but after being treated like they did I could care less if they lose their team. I hope they go back to Winnipeg now but would be just as happy if it's Atlanta. The only people I feel bad for are the non Canadian hating hockey fans. The rest can bite me:)
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
Ah. You have it reversed. "@goldwaterinst" are my tweets to them. "@GSC2K2" are their tweets to me. It must have seemed like gibberish (even by the 140 character limits of twitter).

Ah, I see. Thank you for the tutorial.

So you've taken to Twitter to taunt Goldwater and call them amateurish. :laugh: You are a man of strong conviction and that is commendable.

I will stand by my conclusion that you are off the reservation if you think the Goldwater litigation center is taking direction from unsolicited internet submissions. If you would prefer to draw a corollary between that Twitter exchange and a sentence in a PR piece by Goldwater's investigative reporter, so be it.

Either way I am amused to no end that you have taken to ridiculing Goldwater via Twitter.
 

Fidel Astro

Registered User
Aug 26, 2010
1,371
74
Winnipeg, MB
www.witchpolice.com
To answer your question, yes I honestly believe the deal is completely legal.

If that's the case, why is it taking so long to get done? If it's legal, how does GWI have a leg to stand on? Why hasn't the CoG just showed GWI the appropriate documents to make them go away and gone ahead with the deal?

Moreover, my opinion is shared by every other law firm that has looked at this deal and put themselves in harms way for a malpractice claim if their opinions are wrong.

Good for them. Again, if it's all legit, it has the backing of all these other law firms, and even a senator down there, how is some small special interest group holding anything up? It doesn't make sense. It seems like it would be an easy fix. Show GWI proof that it's all legal and they'll go away. Hasn't happened. Hence the skepticism.

The GWI's untested view of the deal is shaped by their political leanings, IMO. None of that matters, however, as that is what judges are for.

OK, so they are politically motivated. So? How does that make anything more complicated. They're asking for something very specific. It really shouldn't be difficult... either "here's why it's legal" or "go ahead and sue us, we don't care, we believe we are correct."

The GWI's actions have only led to an increase in the bond interest rate. To say the CoG must go to court to get the court's blessing on a transaction they believe empowered to enter into and which they believe is perfectly legal, is a ridiculous position. Something about seperation of powers comes to mind. Executive branch, don't act unless the judicial branch says you can. Simply silly. It is up to the GWI to challenge this deal. They have not. We can speculate as to why. I have my opinion, I'm sure you have yours.

OK, first of all, I didn't say the CoG needs to go to court. I said if they feel the deal is legal, they should provide the proof to the GWI to shut them up, or they should just go ahead with the deal as-is and not worry about a court case in the future, knowing they will prevail.

No one is stopping them from doing the deal. The GWI has indicated they will sue if the deal goes through, but why does the CoG care? As you said, they're just some unelected special interest group. Cities get sued all the time, especially in the US. If it's all legal, they have nothing to worry about. Do the deal, get the team sold, then clean up the GWI mess afterwards. Again, if they're so confident their interpretation of the law is correct, there's absolutely nothing to worry about.

Why are they hesitating?

No sympathy requested, nor expected. Like I said, that a $1 will buy you a cup of coffee (or a hot dog at a Coyote game;))

I don't drink coffee and I've never eaten meat. Get me a tea and a veggie burger and we'll call it even.
 

Jet

Free Capo!
Jul 20, 2004
33,460
33,106
Florida

If by light reading you mean brain dead fluff reading...

FWIW the Sun is an absolute rag and IMO it really makes Winnipeg look bad.

No wonder Coyotes fans here criticize Canadian (specifically Winnipeg) media when they see garbage like this. I hope Metro buries the Sun.
 
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