Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater

[Dado]

I didn't watch the NHL for a number of years after the Jets left.

I no longer live in a city that has an NHL team. But I have all kinds of junior and a minor pro league within easy reach, and let me tell you, they are a far better entertainment bang for the buck than the Canucks.


Edit: Previous thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=896125

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[Killion]

And if there is any circus, it's because the Canadian sports media has created one, not the league.

Expansion plans "Southward Ho" were set prior to Bettmans appointment; painting the guy as the one primarily responsible for the relo's out of Winnipeg, QC & Hartford is both revisionist & completely unfair. In wishing for a new Commissioner, be careful, because you could well wind up with one that is truly pro-American in terms of franchise location, possibly a contractionist, leaving Canada with 3 teams, let alone the possibility of 9 some sunny day.

So the 2 year mess with the bonds, parking rights, threats of lawsuits, etc etc, are just a figment of the Canadian medias imagination....

Of course not. Hockey is a MotherHood issue up here as you well know, however, when guys' like Shoalts, Brunt & McCown et al pour on the Kerosene it doesnt help matters for Canada or Canadian fans one little bit. Its absolutely undeniable that these guys along with many other pundits harbor simmering resentments' towards the league in general, Gary Bettman specifically. The medium is the message, they've got their soapboxes, they spew invective & theory that does nothing but lather up a wide swath of the fan base in forming opinion.

I just have the feeling that if TNSE really did offer the full 210 Million that Bettman would accept it and leave this unholy mess behind very quickly.

Ive wondered about this as well. We know the NHL's inflexible in its price & terms for a local sale, losses last year (09-10 @ $25M) and in staying put as they did for 10-11 with the COG providing $25M to cover losses, now reportedly as high as $40M, were looking at app. $205M. The league likes to claim franchise value is roughly $200M so either they get $205M from Hulsizer/COG or the same plus a $15-$25M relo fee from TNSE. Though I put no credence in Atlanta moving, hypothetically if they did, Im sure the NHL would charge TN whatever the difference in sale price might be with a relo fee in order to clear the bar of $200-$225M. Based on franchise values elsewhere, Id say thats actually a pretty reasonable & equitable price for Winnipeg or QC to pay for a relo'd team.

 

[LT_Canadian]

I can't believe for one second that Mark Chipman would stand by and say "ok I will be patient and be your back up guy and oh ya I will continue to pay more each year so that you Bettman can piss around losing more and more money". Notta ain't gonna happen. Chipmans offer is for $170 million that's it. He can purchase the Thrashers for cheaper because those owners can sell for whatever they want, the NHL has no control over that situation so give me one good reason why the Mark Chipman group would over pay for Phoenix. I can't think of any.

This is Bettman's mess and if he came to Chipman and even thought of asking for them to pay for his mess up, I'm sure Mr Thomson would have something to say.

Bettman is going to pass whatever losses on to either the City of Glendale or the new local owner, not to an ownership group that relocates the team. IMHO.

 

[Killion]

Chipmans offer is for $170 million that's it. He can purchase the Thrashers for cheaper because those owners can sell for whatever they want, the NHL has no control over that situation so give me one good reason why the Mark Chipman group would over pay for Phoenix.

You know this for a fact LT?. TN wont budge off that price huh?. I think your gravely mistaken my friend. Whether its Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami, whichever, Winnipegs looking at $200-$225M period. Even IF (which they are not) the Thrashers could be had for $100M, the league would tack on another $100M in relocation fee's, minimum, in order to; A) Receive fair value for a franchise in Winnipeg; B) Maintain overall league wide franchise values. The NHL has every right to charge relo fee's & can kill any deal whereby a franchise is being sold for relo & they decide they dont like the market or the ownership group its being sold to.

 

[Potrzebie]

Actually Bettman sees himself as nothing of the sort and was responsible for very little of the expansion south, and in reality has done far more to help the game, even in Canada, than he has done to "hurt" it, especially for you since without him, there would be NO chance of a team returning to Winnipeg. You should be thanking him, not hating him.

And if there is any circus, it's because the Canadian sports media has created one, not the league.

Just some actual facts, I didn't mean to derail your rant with the truth.

Oh no, not again...

 

[Roughneck]

He can purchase the Thrashers for cheaper because those owners can sell for whatever they want

But he can't move them for no extra cost either.

so give me one good reason why the Mark Chipman group would over pay for Phoenix. I can't think of any.

Because "bringing home the Jets" is more marketable than "bringing hockey back to Winnipeg" if I had to toss something out there.

 

[Furkmyster]

You know this for a fact LT?. TN wont budge off that price huh?. I think your gravely mistaken my friend. Whether its Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami, whichever, Winnipegs looking at $200-$225M period. Even IF (which they are not) the Thrashers could be had for $100M, the league would tack on another $100M in relocation fee's, minimum, in order to; A) Receive fair value for a franchise in Winnipeg; B) Maintain overall league wide franchise values. The NHL has every right to charge relo fee's & can kill any deal whereby a franchise is being sold for relo & they decide they dont like the market or the ownership group its being sold to.

Where did this relocation fee come from? Judge Baum and bankruptcy court? I don't recall Phoenix/Colorado/Carolina/Dallas paying any relocation fees when those franchises moved. They all moved to new areas that had no other franchises close by.

 

[Whileee]

But he can't move them for no extra cost either.



Because "bringing home the Jets" is more marketable than "bringing hockey back to Winnipeg" if I had to toss something out there.

I don't see this at all. I think that there is a small segment of Winnipeggers that have been keeping the flame for the "return of the Jets", but based on all those in my circle, most people are just interested in an NHL team. I can't see anyone making a decision about season tickets or merchandise based on whether the team came from Phoenix or Atlanta, or was an expansion franchise. Anyway, that's the perspective of many of my friends and colleagues who would be in line for season tickets.

 

[LT_Canadian]

You know this for a fact LT?. TN wont budge off that price huh?. I think your gravely mistaken my friend. Whether its Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami, whichever, Winnipegs looking at $200-$225M period. Even IF (which they are not) the Thrashers could be had for $100M, the league would tack on another $100M in relocation fee's, minimum, in order to; A) Receive fair value for a franchise in Winnipeg; B) Maintain overall league wide franchise values. The NHL has every right to charge relo fee's & can kill any deal whereby a franchise is being sold for relo & they decide they dont like the market or the ownership group its being sold to.

Of course I don't know this for a fact and neither do you. It's called common sense. I do agree that the NHL may add a relocation fee to the Atlanta sale but again, I could see Atlanta being sold for $140 with possibly a 25 or 30 million relocation fee but I can't see it being $200 million. Again it's only my opinion but I have followed the Winnipeg situation very closely from day one and have some people with inside knowledge. The deal is $170 for Phoenix, that was $140 for what the NHL paid and $30 million relocation fee to cover the NHL's losses that first year. Why would that deal change just because the NHL wanted to risk another season. They have this years losses covered by COG already and anything over they will recover from another franchise relocation fee.

The dollars you are talking "My Friend" are for teams that are in the ilks of say the Dallas Stars or maybe the Sharks. Teams that have been successful drawing attendance and been successful on the ice. Niether Phoenix nor Atlanta fall into those catagories. The only place that can afford and will pay high relocation fees or high expansion team prices is Hamilton. Until they build an arena the NHL will not be able to tap that market for it's 300 or 400 million.

 

[Killion]

Where did this relocation fee come from? Judge Baum and bankruptcy court? I don't recall Phoenix/Colorado/Carolina/Dallas paying any relocation fees when those franchises moved. They all moved to new areas that had no other franchises close by.

Brand new. The Colorado Rockies paid indemnification fee's when they moved to NJ to the Isles, Rangers & Flyers (broadcasting infringements) and Disney paid McNall a chunk of change when they opened up shop in Anaheim, but thats it, The relo fee would be a new one for the league, an enforceable & acceptable practice. In the case of the Coyotes, complicating matters would be Baum having ruled that any relo fee's derived through off-sale would be allocated to the Moyes' BK'd estate. Im sure "private" arrangements could be made to satisfy all parties, but dont be expecting any largesse' or discounts from the NHL in letting a Winnipeg or QC in at bargain basement prices.

 

[Roughneck]

I don't see this at all. I think that there is a small segment of Winnipeggers that have been keeping the flame for the "return of the Jets", but based on all those in my circle, most people are just interested in an NHL team. I can't see anyone making a decision about season tickets or merchandise based on whether the team came from Phoenix or Atlanta, or was an expansion franchise. Anyway, that's the perspective of many of my friends and colleagues who would be in line for season tickets.

I don't disagree, but seeing as how the Thrashers owners would know that TNSE is able and willing to pay at least $170M for a team I can't see the savings being that much which would make the sentimental factor (and an easy marketing campaign) worth the relatively minor difference cost IMO, if there actually was one after the NHL got through with it all.

Plus, it seems as though whoever buys the Coyotes gets $25M that's in an escrow account as well

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Continue here.

 

[Killion]

They have this years losses covered by COG already and anything over they will recover from another franchise relocation fee.

Do they?. I thought the $25M was returned to the COG?. If the Coyotes can get past the 1st round the losses will be somewhat less than the reported $40M from just this season, however, the sale price regardless is going to be app. $205M stay or go. Atlanta is not moving and even if it was, lets say to QC with the Coyotes going to Winnipeg, the NHL's not about to discount one franchise & make the difference up in the sale of another. Thats just not how it works.

 

[kdb209]

Look down, read thread
Don't look 'em in the eye
Look down, two weeks,
You're here until you die

The sun is strong
It's hot as hell below
Look down, two weeks,
There's twenty threads to go

I've done no wrong!
Sweet Jesus hear my prayer!
Look down, read thread,
Sweet Jesus doesn't care

The bonds will sell,
I know the rumor's true!
Look down, read thread,
Goldwater says they'll sue!

When It's done ya won't see me
Posting here!

Look down, read thread
Don't look 'em in the eye
How long O Lord
Before you let it die?

Look down, look down,
You'll always read this thread
Look down, two weeks,
You're here until you're dead.

Now bring me thread number 24601 (MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMDCI)
Your time is up
And your parole's begun.
You know what that means

Yes, it means I'm free

NO!
It means you get
Your usual list-of-threads


12-08-2008 Hockey in The Desert (Phoenix franchise and finance/business matters)
02-04-2009 Hockey in the Desert II (Phoenix Coyotes franchise and business matters)

05-05-2009 Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes
05-07-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part II
05-18-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part III
05-22-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part IV
06-03-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part V
06-09-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI
06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road

11-24-2009 Keeping up with potential owners for NHL Phoenix Coyotes (UPD: Ice Edge signs LOI)
03-14-2010 Part II. Potential owners of NHL's Phoenix Coyotes
03-26-2010 Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)
04-10-2010 Part IV Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy; UPD COG approves Reinsdorf MOU, not IEH MOU
05-02-2010 Part V Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy UPD Reinsdorf out? IEH back in? else Winnipeg?
05-11-2010 Part VI Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy
05-23-2010 Part VII Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy
06-07-2010 Part VIII: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankrtuptcy
06-22-2010 Part IX: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankruptcy UPD: Pres Moss fired 6/30 with IEH input
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore
12-14-2010 Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing
12-20-2010 Part XVII: Phoenix -- Thread Title Available For Lease
01-09-2011 Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front
01-24-2011 Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown
02-02-2011 Phoenix XX: Two weeks
02-11-2011 Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?
02-22-2011 Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never
02-28-2011 Phoenix XXIII - Bond: The Phoenix Project
03-03-2011 Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?
03-07-2011 Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?
03-08-2011 Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ
03-11-2011 Phoenix XXVII: Can we all get along?
03-16-2011 Phoenix XXVIII: Lawyers, Bonds and Money
03-20-2011 Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show
03-22-2011 Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead
03-27-2011 Phoenix Part XXXI: I feel I'm in a time loop
04-05-2011 Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater

 

[metalfoot]

Look down, read thread
Don't look 'em in the eye
Look down, two weeks,
You're here until you die

...
NO!
It means you get
Your usual list-of-threads

That's comedy gold, right there.

Will this be the thread to end all threads? Who can say?

 

[Confucius]

Look down, read thread
Don't look 'em in the eye
Look down, two weeks,
You're here until you die

The sun is strong
It's hot as hell below
Look down, two weeks,
There's twenty threads to go

I've done no wrong!
Sweet Jesus hear my prayer!
Look down, read thread,
Sweet Jesus doesn't care

The bonds will sell,
I know the rumor's true!
Look down, read thread,
Goldwater says they'll sue!

When It's done ya won't see me
Posting here!

Look down, read thread
Don't look 'em in the eye
How long O Lord
Before you let it die?

Look down, look down,
You'll always read this thread
Look down, two weeks,
You're here until you're dead.

Now bring me thread number 24601 (MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMDCI)
Your time is up
And your parole's begun.
You know what that means

Yes, it means I'm free

NO!
It means you get
Your usual list-of-threads


12-08-2008 Hockey in The Desert (Phoenix franchise and finance/business matters)
02-04-2009 Hockey in the Desert II (Phoenix Coyotes franchise and business matters)

05-05-2009 Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes
05-07-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part II
05-18-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part III
05-22-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part IV
06-03-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part V
06-09-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI
06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road

11-24-2009 Keeping up with potential owners for NHL Phoenix Coyotes (UPD: Ice Edge signs LOI)
03-14-2010 Part II. Potential owners of NHL's Phoenix Coyotes
03-26-2010 Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)
04-10-2010 Part IV Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy; UPD COG approves Reinsdorf MOU, not IEH MOU
05-02-2010 Part V Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy UPD Reinsdorf out? IEH back in? else Winnipeg?
05-11-2010 Part VI Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy
05-23-2010 Part VII Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy
06-07-2010 Part VIII: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankrtuptcy
06-22-2010 Part IX: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankruptcy UPD: Pres Moss fired 6/30 with IEH input
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore
12-14-2010 Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing
12-20-2010 Part XVII: Phoenix -- Thread Title Available For Lease
01-09-2011 Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front
01-24-2011 Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown
02-02-2011 Phoenix XX: Two weeks
02-11-2011 Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?
02-22-2011 Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never
02-28-2011 Phoenix XXIII - Bond: The Phoenix Project
03-03-2011 Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?
03-07-2011 Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?
03-08-2011 Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ
03-11-2011 Phoenix XXVII: Can we all get along?
03-16-2011 Phoenix XXVIII: Lawyers, Bonds and Money
03-20-2011 Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show
03-22-2011 Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead
03-27-2011 Phoenix Part XXXI: I feel I'm in a time loop
04-05-2011 Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater

I totally agree with the bolded and enlarged comment.

 

[Roughneck]

Has it been that quiet that none of us can find anything new or interesting? Has the COG council already washed their hands of this and now waiting for the season to end?

I'm pretty sure its been that way since February.

 

[Brodie]

Nothing new has actually happened in Phoenix since December

 

[smokes]

Do they?. I thought the $25M was returned to the COG?

IIRC, the 25 million loss guarantee would only go back to the COG if they (or anyone, I suppose) found an owner to keep the Coyotes where they are as the new owner would cover it. Failing that, the 25m would go to the NHL.

I wasn't aware that the 25m was returned to the COG, so I could be wrong.

 

[Confucius]

Has it been that quiet that none of us can find anything new or interesting? Has the COG council already washed their hands of this and now waiting for the season to end?

Interesting comment. I would think the city has to try and sell the bonds. Afterall they voted on it, by a 4 to 3 margin they decided to go for it. How can they change their minds without voting on it again?

 

[Retail1LO*]

Interesting comment. I would think the city has to try and sell the bonds. Afterall they voted on it, by a 4 to 3 margin they decided to go for it. How can they change their minds without voting on it again?

Umm...because they haven't sold?

 

[pirate94]

Umm...because they haven't sold?

If Hulsizer was smart he'd buy up the bonds and make even more money.

 

[Confucius]

Umm...because they haven't sold?

Naturally but they have to try and sell them, they can't just say we changed our minds and are waiting for the season to end. Without voting again that is.

 

[Retail1LO*]

If Hulsizer was smart he'd buy up the bonds and make even more money.

Can he even do that? Irrelevant.

Nothing about this situation has been "smart." I don't have any reason to suspect that should, or will, change anytime soon.

 

[Retail1LO*]

Naturally but they have to try and sell them, they can't just say we changed our minds and are waiting for the season to end. Without voting again that is.

Who's to say they HAVEN'T?