Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater

[cbcwpg]

The facts are:

1- The NHL has in the past acknowledged that TNSE has made a "bonified" offer to buy the Phoenix Coyotes. The NHL had not admitted that anyone else has made an offer.

2- Bettman is on record as saying that "IF" the Coyotes were to relocate, they should be offered to TNSE first before any others.

Does this mean the team would for sure move to Winnipeg? No. Because a lot has happened in the last 2 years and the price of the team keeps growing as losses keep piling up, and there is uncertainty as to who would be paying those losses if the team was to relocate. So the initial "bonified" offer that TNSE made may not be the offer that would have to be put on the table now.

Having said this, IMO if the Coyotes were to relocate to somewhere other than Winnipeg, it will be because TNSE no longer wants to pay the asking price (given that a team done south-east might be had for cheaper ), but it will be thier choice. The NHL will offer the team to TNSE first, that is without question IMO. Where it goes from there we will see.

 

[southpaw24]

No it wouldn't violate the gift clause, but GWI would act very quickly legally to block that sale one way or another. I guarantee it.

Of course GWI would be all over that like a fat kid on a cupcake. A city spending more than half of their emregency money to keep a team that hemmorages(sp) money and hasnt posted a profit in years. It would be a GWI field day.

 

[peter sullivan]

it always makes me laugh when i read a post claiming that winnipeg is one member of a list of relocation possibilities....without fail, the location of that poster is somewhere in southern ontario.

it will only make it that much sweeter.

the NHL told the COG outright last year that the team would move to WINNIPEG if they didnt choke up the 25 large....it was written directly into the preface of the agreement.

thomson is a partner, not an investor in TNSE.

 

[LadyStanley]

This does not apply to AHL franchises. There are at least 10 teams that own their AHL franchise.

True. But as it stands now, TNSE owns the affiliate AHL team of the Vancouver NHL franchise. Definitely a conflict of interest if they own a Winnipeg NHL franchise.

Now, perhaps they have an agreement with the owners of AHL San Antonio (the current Phoenix affiliate) to transfer the Canucks affiliation?

 

[Whileee]

it always makes me laugh when i read a post claiming that winnipeg is one member of a list of relocation possibilities....without fail, the location of that poster is somewhere in southern ontario.

it will only make it that much sweeter.

the NHL told the COG outright last year that the team would move to WINNIPEG if they didnt choke up the 25 large....it was written directly into the preface of the agreement.

thomson is a partner, not an investor in TNSE.

I am also often surprised by how some tend to shill for KC, Houston, Portland or Vegas before another Canadian market.

If there was even a whiff of rumour from "NHL sources" that Hamilton or another destination was in play right now, doesn't it seem likely that the Ontario and US media would be all over it? The notion that they have somehow been swayed by Winnipeg fans who post on internet discussion boards is laughable, indeed.

 

[Donwood]

True. But as it stands now, TNSE owns the affiliate AHL team of the Vancouver NHL franchise. Definitely a conflict of interest if they own a Winnipeg NHL franchise.

Now, perhaps they have an agreement with the owners of AHL San Antonio (the current Phoenix affiliate) to transfer the Canucks affiliation?

I find it hard to believe with True North being so close to an NHL franchise for so long that they don't have a detailed plan on how to deal with the Vancouver affiliation etc. San Antonio's affiliation contract with the Coyotes is expiring and I have no doubt there is a plan on what will happen with the Moose with Vancouver's approval.

 

[PitbulI]

I wouldn't put it past the COG to take a 100 million and give it to Hullsizer.

I think it would happen so fast the GWI's head would spin and it would then take years for it to go through the courts.

The COG council would have a secret session where they would approve the use of the funds to give to MH. MH would sign the deal, the NHL would have an emergency meeting to approve MH and it would all be done within hours.(In my opinion).

Where did this rumor come from or was it a figment of someones imagination?

 

[Grudy0]

There have been many expansion teams and relocated teams that wouldn't fit the definition of being "set up to accept an NHL team tomorrow"

Calgary, San Jose, Tampa Bay, Ottawa, Florida, Phoenix, Carolina...see what I'm getting at? Quebec can play in Le Colisee until the new arena is built. Hamilton can play in Copps while it's being renovated (just like the New York Rangers and Madison Square Garden).

Okay, but let's break this down a bit...

While the list contains relocation and expansion franchises that started with limited places to stage home games, the discussion of Winnipeg ends up bumping to number one on the current list because:

The ownership group is in place with an arena for immediate occupancy AND it appears the BoG is forcing the hand that the NHL no longer own the Coyotes.

If the reports were true from last year, there was a tentative deal to send the Coyotes back to the 'peg. The only changes since that time?

The NHL no longer has any real suitors for the Coyotes to stay in Arizona.
Quebec is building an arena, possibly with an ownership group in place for an NHL team.

Reports that the NHL has had serious discussion with TNSE in Winnipeg trump almost any other possible site at this time.

 

[pirate94]

True. But as it stands now, TNSE owns the affiliate AHL team of the Vancouver NHL franchise. Definitely a conflict of interest if they own a Winnipeg NHL franchise.

Now, perhaps they have an agreement with the owners of AHL San Antonio (the current Phoenix affiliate) to transfer the Canucks affiliation?

I'm fairly certain there is an "out" clause in any agreement that TNSE has with any affiliations. That would be seemingly be a fairly standard agreement.
I'm sure there are several clauses

 

[rj]

...and the price of the team keeps growing as losses keep piling up...

Imagine this in real life.

"Hi John, I know you said two years ago you'd pay $200k for this house. But I've lost more money on it over the past two years in the wake of a challenging environment, so it's now $225k."

John: "Uhhh...no."

 

[Tommy Hawk]

I'm fairly certain there is an "out" clause in any agreement that TNSE has with any affiliations. That would be seemingly be a fairly standard agreement.
I'm sure there are several clauses

True dat!! Affiliations change every year as NHL are always getting out of agreements and int other agreements.

And whose to say the Moose do not stay exactly where they are at if Phoenix does move to Winnipeg.

I am still waiting on some real news here!! Nothing definitive in a long time!

Maybe the news is imminently going to be coming in a 2 weeks since there are no final contracts available until that time.

 

[Shawa666]

True. But as it stands now, TNSE owns the affiliate AHL team of the Vancouver NHL franchise. Definitely a conflict of interest if they own a Winnipeg NHL franchise.

Now, perhaps they have an agreement with the owners of AHL San Antonio (the current Phoenix affiliate) to transfer the Canucks affiliation?

Meh, For a while, the Habs owned the Oliers' AHL affiliate, (Or Vice Versa, can't remember) Both were using the Bulldogs as their affiliate.

 

[Evil Doctor]

If there was even a whiff of rumour from "NHL sources" that Hamilton or another destination was in play right now, doesn't it seem likely that the Ontario and US media would be all over it? The notion that they have somehow been swayed by Winnipeg fans who post on internet discussion boards is laughable, indeed.

Considering how tight of a media lid the NHL keeps on these things, it's entirely likely.

And it's more than just Winnipeg fans on internet discussion boards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Winnipeg media has been covering this pretty intensely too haven't they?

And once again, just because you haven't heard a rumour about something, doesn't mean it isn't happening....

(and there has been, I even posted a link for you, it's obvious that the Winnipeg fans don't want to hear it.)

 

[BuffaloAZ]

I wouldn't put it past the COG to take a 100 million and give it to Hullsizer.

I think it would happen so fast the GWI's head would spin and it would then take years for it to go through the courts.

The COG council would have a secret session where they would approve the use of the funds to give to MH. MH would sign the deal, the NHL would have an emergency meeting to approve MH and it would all be done within hours.(In my opinion).

Where did this rumor come from or was it a figment of someones imagination?

GWI is suing a school right now for using funds (that were intended to build a new school) to improve existing school buildings. With this, their suit against the new Health Care in the US, and the Coyotes; are they streching themselves too thin? I doubt they would let anything COG does slip past them like that. This situation has been their bread and butter, it's put them on the map.

 

[Roadrage]

Assuming the team does infact pack up and leave... I'll be really interested to see the Goldwater response. They are about to ensure that a $400m arena which is less than 10 years old sits empty for the next 20 years.

AHL franchise? What AHL franchise is going to want to locate there when they can go to the downtown arena and share a venue with the Suns? It would take one heck of a sweetheart deal (much like the Glendale was trying to give the Coyotes) for them to locate out in the suburbs.

How did the arena balloon to $400M? Construction costs were $180M. Did you get it confused with the UofP stadium that the Cardinals play out of that cost $450M?

 

[LadyStanley]

Meh, For a while, the Habs owned the Oliers' AHL affiliate, (Or Vice Versa, can't remember) Both were using the Bulldogs as their affiliate.

So, it was a *shared* affiliation. Not one NHL team owning the AHL affiliate (solely) of another team.

I have no doubt that there's an agreement/understanding regarding the AHL team/affiliation.

 

[cheswick]

I wouldn't put it past the COG to take a 100 million and give it to Hullsizer.

I think it would happen so fast the GWI's head would spin and it would then take years for it to go through the courts.

The COG council would have a secret session where they would approve the use of the funds to give to MH. MH would sign the deal, the NHL would have an emergency meeting to approve MH and it would all be done within hours.(In my opinion).

Where did this rumor come from or was it a figment of someones imagination?

Phoenix biz journal mentioned someone saying it was a possible route to take but that he hasn't heard this from the city

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

True. But as it stands now, TNSE owns the affiliate AHL team of the Vancouver NHL franchise. Definitely a conflict of interest if they own a Winnipeg NHL franchise.

Now, perhaps they have an agreement with the owners of AHL San Antonio (the current Phoenix affiliate) to transfer the Canucks affiliation?

The Phoenix-San Antonio affiliation is over at the end of this year.

 

[Killion]

I wouldn't put it past the COG to take a 100 million and give it to Hullsizer.

I think it would happen so fast the GWI's head would spin and it would then take years for it to go through the courts.

The COG council would have a secret session where they would approve the use of the funds to give to MH. MH would sign the deal, the NHL would have an emergency meeting to approve MH and it would all be done within hours.(In my opinion).

Where did this rumor come from or was it a figment of someones imagination?

Sunnucks simply mentioned in his article of yesterday that the COG had $400M in its Enterprise Account, wondered if that had been considered. Im sure it was. Dismissed as being untenable & illegal. When the entire Bond issue broke back in December, I assumed (never assume btw ) the COG would transfer $100M from that account to Hulsizer who in turn would transfer it to the NHL along with his $70M to purchase the team. The COG would then sell the Bonds & replenish the Enterprise Account with the proceeds. Instead, we've had Hulsizer & apparently Gary Bettman himself acting as Investor Relations / Bond Brokers on behalf of the COG, the former rumored to be an actual buyer himself, be it 50% or 100% of the issue.

The way I looked at it was the Bond issuance, the logistics, sale & debt servicing thereafter fell entirely on the COG's shoulders. Upon agreement & approval of the deal back in December, they should have immediately transferred the funds. Its not Hulsizers nor is it the NHL's responsibility to be promoting & or buying them. I remember being rather Gobsmacked to learn that no, Hulsizer & the NHL would have to await the disposition & sale of the Bonds to get paid. In simplistic form, if Im selling you a house, you sign an agreement to buy it, I really dont care who your mortgage broker is nor whatever terms youve agreed to with them, just show me the money. So, for the legal minds, why wasnt the deal consummated in such a fashion, one that seems to be fairly straightforward, instead of the complications & hash of things Glendales created for itself in not following a straighter & simpler path if indeed accessing the Enterprise Account funds is legal?.

Imagine this in real life.

"Hi John, I know you said two years ago you'd pay $200k for this house. But I've lost more money on it over the past two years in the wake of a challenging environment, so it's now $225k."

John: "Uhhh...no."

You ever been to Winnipeg rj?. Smallish-Medium Sized Market where hockey, music & the arts are all religions?. TNSE would, could & will very likely drop whatever it takes to get it done, and believe me, $225M isnt even close to the ceiling in terms of what they'd gladly pay without batting an eyelash. Im sure they'd like a dealeo', a discount, however, if the purely artificial average franchise value is indeed $200M, whats an extra $25, $50 or even $75M?. Maybe they pay $170M for the team, $35-45M for the Jets name & copywrite including a relo fee all-in?. Many ways the deal can be made obviously. And before we start comparing what Vinik paid in Tampa or what the Thrashers could MAYBE be bought for IF they can be moved with the the NHL's blessings, which they wont be, Id say $200-$250M is a fair price for Winnipeg to pay. Is it a fair price in Tampa, Sunrise or Phoenix?. Not a chance. You can move a team, you cant move the market. Hell, Houston, Portland, Seattle, Milwaukee, Cincy and any number of locations in the US in contemplating an NHL franchise would be worth double or treble what some of these teams are worth in their current locations.

 

[cbcwpg]

Another source won't confirm or deny the Nick Kypreos and Doug MacLean report.

"While I'm not prepared to confirm or deny (the report), it certainly would be irresponsible (if not incompetent) on our part if we weren't doing all the things we need to do to ensure we have alternatives at the appropriate time. One alternative may be Winnipeg," the source told Sportsnet via e-mail.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2011/04/14/source_winnipeg_coyotes/

 

[pirate94]

True dat!! Affiliations change every year as NHL are always getting out of agreements and int other agreements.

And whose to say the Moose do not stay exactly where they are at if Phoenix does move to Winnipeg.

I am still waiting on some real news here!! Nothing definitive in a long time!

Maybe the news is imminently going to be coming in a 2 weeks since there are no final contracts available until that time.

I am sure TNSE has a location or an out in mind to place the Moose in the event they secure an NHL team.

 

[kdb209]

And it is possible that the League could require that TNSE either divest themselves of the Moose or renegotiate affiliations among themselves, the Canucks & San Antonio.

The Ownership Conflict of Interest rules of Article 13 of the NHL Constitution prohibit having even indirect control over another franchise and require Commissioner approval of any business transactions between Member Clubs - although the Constitution does allow for a "Reasonable Period" (not to exceed 180 days) for a Club to come into compliance.

This does not apply to AHL franchises. There are at least 10 teams that own their AHL franchise.

Owning their own is fine - it's owning another Club's affiliate which could be problematic. That's why I mentioned renegotiating affiliations with Vancouver and San Antonio so that the Moose would become the Winnipeg affiliate - problem solved.

 

[King Woodballs]

Another source won't confirm or deny the Nick Kypreos and Doug MacLean report.

"While I'm not prepared to confirm or deny (the report), it certainly would be irresponsible (if not incompetent) on our part if we weren't doing all the things we need to do to ensure we have alternatives at the appropriate time. One alternative may be Winnipeg," the source told Sportsnet via e-mail.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2011/04/14/source_winnipeg_coyotes/

this isnt anything new
welcome to 12-15 months ago NHL lol

 

[rj]

You ever been to Winnipeg rj?. Smallish-Medium Sized Market where hockey, music & the arts are all religions?. TNSE would, could & will very likely drop whatever it takes to get it done, and believe me, $225M isnt even close to the ceiling in terms of what they'd gladly pay without batting an eyelash. Im sure they'd like a dealeo', a discount, however, if the purely artificial average franchise value is indeed $200M, whats an extra $25, $50 or even $75M?. Maybe the pay $170M for the team, $35-45M for the Jets name & copywrite including a relo fee all-in?. Many ways the deal can be made obviously.

I'm not discounting Winnipeg with the statement, but it does show why this team can't find an owner. Take the NHL's stance on owning this franchise and "we're not going to lose money on it", that's why the team is by all accounts likely going to move. If they didn't want to lose money on it they should've never bought it. But what they did was they bought the team, said "this is what we paid, so this is what someone else will pay", and no one in the area can buy the team for that price because it doesn't make any business sense, hence why Glendale had to be involved. If the NHL said the team went to best offer that would stay in Phoenix, this situation would've been resolved two years ago, but that'd require the average franchise value in the league to go down and the owners to recognize a loss.

The NHL here are no different than the people that bought homes for $200k in 2007 and two years later refused to accept that they were now worth half that trying to sell (a lot of those kinds of people live in the Phoenix area and Arizona by the way). Unlike homes though, franchises are a closed shop and can be moved to where they're more valuable since the primary concern of the owners that bought this team is franchise value.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=903547

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