Phoenix L; AllByDesign?

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

I am sure that I have burned worse images into minds than that.

I wonder how they got the bear to do that... Perhaps they put honey on the wall above the urinal.

 

[Killion]

I wonder how they got the bear to do that... Perhaps they put honey on the wall above the urinal.

...nah. Thats just ABD in his game day outfit taken at the MTS in Winniepeg when his Bruins visited.
Hard core. Forget the jersey. Nothin for a Jets fan to grab onto see... Full on A.N.I.M.A.L.

 

[AllByDesign]

I wonder how they got the bear to do that... Perhaps they put honey on the wall above the urinal.

Well, if they can make water freeze in the desert, I suppose anything is possible.

On a side note, I has briefly removed my Avatar in favor of something different. Evidently my identy was attached to that bear and had to be brought back by popular demand. Anyhow... Back to the story.

Anyone confused how a non existent agreement is illegal?

 

[AllByDesign]

...nah. Thats just ABD in his game day outfit taken at the MTS in Winniepeg when his Bruins visited.
Hard core. Forget the jersey. Nothin for a Jets fan to grab onto see... Full on A.N.I.M.A.L.

Yeah... You should see what I do to the bruins fan that is dating a Habs fan. Cruel stuff. It's on YouTube.

 

[Greyhounds]

...no worries. And plz, unless ya'll wanna see a Mod come riding through this thread with a Scimitar slashing posters apart like water melons at full gallop enough with language issues already!.

I'd like to see this actually. Can someone post the video to Youtube?

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

David Shoalts is on PTS for the full 2 hours. In the next segment, they will be talking about NHL coaches being replaced. Not sure if there will be a Coyotes segment.

 

[MNNumbers]

I haven't posted here for awhile, but I think I have read almost every word of the last 10 threads. (You may feel free to insert some joke here: I know it's time wasted).

I have a couple of questions.

First, for Killion. What does AMULA stand for? I get that AMF = Arena Management Fee. But, I arrived too late to catch the beginning. Please help me.

Second, for Killion, and others: Let's just suppose that the City of Glendale somehow sees a vision of a future in which the hockey team is a viable financial asset to their community. That would make the AMF worthwhile, and the years spent giving the NHL $25M a year worth it. And, it would make the long-range future AMF less than what is proposed. I suppose Glendale is assuming such a future exists. I suppose this assumes the finances of the franchise turn around. Now, my question: What exactly would that look like? In other words, how many seats sold at an average of how much? How many club seats sold? How many corporate suites rented? etc.

I ask, because I read posts of PHX fans, and I understand they want to keep their team. I would, too. And, they would say that Phoenix is a hockey market. I suppose I would, too. I am just trying to figure out what a viable franchise there looks like.

If we knew that, we would have a better chance of understanding whether Jamison can actually swing the deal.

Thanks for the help.

 

[kdb209]

I haven't posted here for awhile, but I think I have read almost every word of the last 10 threads. (You may feel free to insert some joke here: I know it's time wasted).

I have a couple of questions.

First, for Killion. What does AMULA stand for? I get that AMF = Arena Management Fee. But, I arrived too late to catch the beginning. Please help me.

I'm not Killion - nor do I play one on TV - but:

AMULA = Arena Management, Use and Lease Agreement - the original arena lease between Moyes & Glendale. The NHL did not assume this contract when they bought the 'Yotes in bankruptcy - it remained in Moyes' estate. As part of the APA (Asset Purchase Agreement) in bankruptcy Moyes estate gave the NHL a one year sub-lease for '09-'10 (Partial Lease Assignment Agreement) under the same terms. Moyes later rejected the AMULA in bankruptcy.

AMUL = Agreement of Management Use and Lease. New agreement between the Coyotes/NHL and Glendale, signed at the expiration of the one-year sub-lease (June 30, 2010) - providing originally a 1 year lease, later extended to an up to 10 year renewable lease (renewable annually by the NHL or any party the League may assign it to).

Other agreements of interest:

2010-2011 Arena Management and Operations Agreement (May 2010) - provided for the up to $25M subsidy "Owners Fee" to reimburse for Actual Cash Losses during the '10-'11 season.

Amendment No. 1 to the 2010-2011 Arena Management and Operations Agreement (May 2011) - extended the one year AMUL to up to 10 years and provided for the $25M subsidy "Owners Fee" to reimburse for Actual Cash Losses during the '11-'12 season.

Note that the AMUL is automatically renewable by the NHL for up to 10 years, but the Arena Management Fee (subsidy, Owners Fee, or whatever you want to call it) is not - a new fee must be negotiated with CoG for any years '12-'13 and beyond.

 

[GKJ]

50 threads, eh?

We're now past 1 year since we started getting reports that True North had a deal in principle to buy the Thrashers. The Coyotes (in this year's timeline) supposedly had an accelerated timeline. Obviously, that hasn't come to pass, and one reason may be that the Coyotes are still kicking around in the playoffs.

If the Kings can finish them off tomorrow, I sense things will start happening quickly. We've been through relocation jargon enough times. We knew all last year that Winnipeg was going to be the place, and they got a team not as many people thought was in imminent danger of moving.

Let's go off the beaten path here: Can Bettman simply suspend the Coyotes franchise, like the Cleveland Browns were? We don't have a CBA, so all bets are off on whether or not they disperse or we expand to another city for next year. This way, the league can move forward, and Bettman hasn't completely pulled the plug on Glendale. Leave the door open to expand again as needed/desired. Everyone will (eventually) get what they want. It's starting to sound like this is too far above Bettman's control.

 

[Killion]

I'm not Killion - nor do I play one on TV.

... I thought Kirk, Spock & McCoy got rid of those things, or was that Tribbles?

 

[halligan10]

This way, the league can move forward, and Bettman hasn't completely pulled the plug on Glendale. Leave the door open to expand again as needed/desired. Everyone will (eventually) get what they want. It's starting to sound like this is too far above Bettman's control.[/QUOTE]

I cant recall the NHL moving a franchise with a "Worry" mind...I dont feel they care about if CoG will get what they want. They didnt care last year in Atlanta and never did care in the 90's. I agree it's all above Bettman's control at this point. I know if Quebec city is getting a team again its all against Bettman's will.

 

[Mr McV]

I have a question hopefully someone would be kind enough to answer.
If I understand correctly, the NHL is being paid their 25 million in part to manage the arena. Is this correct? If so, I also understand that the arena booking have diminished since the NHL took over. If this is also true, would the COG have any possible recourse against the NHL for a less than stellar effort in gaining bookings for the arena?

 

[TheLegend]

Well, if they can make water freeze in the desert, I suppose anything is possible.

What better way is there to get out from under 108 degree heat in May than to go watch a hockey game???

 

[Mungman]

I have a question hopefully someone would be kind enough to answer.
If I understand correctly, the NHL is being paid their 25 million in part to manage the arena. Is this correct? If so, I also understand that the arena booking have diminished since the NHL took over. If this is also true, would the COG have any possible recourse against the NHL for a less than stellar effort in gaining bookings for the arena?

AFAIK there were no performance requirements in the agreement, so no they would have little in the way of recourse.

 

[rt]

So which scenario is the most frustrating, most drawn out, most never ending possible scenario?

I'm guessing that's the one we'll see.

Maybe the Jamison bid falls through or gets tied up by the GWI somehow, yet it's too late to move the team to Quebec, so there is a messy court battle that lasts FOREVER and the team either plays lame duck games or is folded/suspended. Something where by EVERYBODY loses and NOBODY is happy.

Which scenario is that? If it's even remotely possible, that's the scenario I'm going to bet money on.

Help win me some money.

I've got to get some benefit from this.

 

[Mr McV]

AFAIK there were no performance requirements in the agreement, so no they would have little in the way of recourse.

Thanks for the reply. I guess I was just hoping I could see some more dirt kicked around.

 

[Killion]

Now, my question: What exactly would that look like? In other words, how many seats sold at an average of how much? How many club seats sold? How many corporate suites rented? etc....I ask, because I read posts of PHX fans, and I understand they want to keep their team. I would, too. And, they would say that Phoenix is a hockey market. I suppose I would, too. I am just trying to figure out what a viable franchise there looks like.... If we knew that, we would have a better chance of understanding whether Jamison can actually swing the deal.

Thx to kdb for answering your question about anagrams & abbreviations, as he should, considering the fact that he's the one responsible for creating a great many of them in the first place. Yes, confusing & befuddling the world at large with his whimsical meanderings & ergodic penmanship, none of his links to the past actually working, copious footnotes referencing books, movies, people and events, none of which were ever written, existed, happened while he just sits back & laughs & laughs & laughs.... but I digress.

...as for the 2nd part, my opinion is moot as Im not a taxpayer in Glendale. They elected this Mayor, the Council members, and if they feel in their "infinite wisdom" that the cost-to-benefit ratios make sense in committing the taxpayers into paying app $300M in AMF's over the next 20yrs while simultaneously continuing to paying the app $8M per annum in debt service charges on the Arena Bonds over the same period of time while receiving little more than app $6M in taxes annually from the franchise & the businesses in & around Westgate Mall, well, who am I to argue?.

See, thats my problem right there. False foundations. Gonna go crash bang boom. Guaranteed municipal bankruptcy. Now, if the NHL & the incoming ownership were responsible, creative, experienced & committed, Im in the Camp of Crazies who actually believe the franchise & the building can be turned around & start showing a profit, actually contributing to the ever increasing quality of life that wealth through taxes are supposed to be generating for government so they can build those swimming pools, hire cops etc, and its no secret in how one goes about it absent subsidies of anykind.

Its called hard work. Hubris. Belief in yourself, your "mission". Hockey, concerts, consumer & trade shows. Create platforms & then absolutely paper the joint with corporate sponsorship ID. Get out there in the community & sell sell sell. Sales solves everything. Go crazy. Because theyve never had decent ownership, people just write it off as a huge mistake. No idea what there talking about with accusations of "failed sunbelt experiment". For those naysayers my response is simple; eat my shorts. Go do some real research & get a clue. This applies to Gary Bettman, Greg Jamison. Man up. They shouldnt be allowed to & dont need to bankrupt a municipality like this, yet here we are, everyone with their hands out, no one willing to take ownership, responsibility.

The numbers are all there MNN, crunch away. There is terrific upside, steep & treacherous downside. If in the pursuit of a goal all you see are obstacles, you'll fail... expecting Mommy or Municipality to bail you out, well, what does that say about the individuals handling this file at the NHL, Jamison, the fools who we suffered in Hulsizer, IEH, Moyes, Ellman et al?....

 

[tarheelhockey]

Seriously, though, we're up to L now?

This topic practically justifies its own forum.

 

[Nordskull]

Seriously, though, we're up to L now?

This topic practically justifies its own forum.

Yep, coming very close to Phoenix; LI

Just add an E to the number.

 

[MNNumbers]

Killion and others (especially PHX fans),

This is what I am after. To me, it's reality.

If the tickets have to bring in $50M a year (to pick a number), then, work out the math. Approx 1.1 Million per game. Can you sell 18,000 seats? Then, they have to average $55 a seat. Those would be the cold, hard facts. Now, I am not saying it can't be done. Nor, am I saying it can. Rather, reality is, this has to be the end point if a buyer keeps the team in the Valley.

Same with the corporate seats - all the amenities. Work out what they need to produce. That's reality.

Reality is not: Well, Glendale can chip in $15M a year just to have a team, plus the team gets all the revenue from the arena. That's a dream world that will surely bring someone to ruin eventually. Again, I am not saying "MOVE THE TEAM."

No. What I am saying is: Face the reality. Can someone see a way to make it work? That's reality.

Now, for the city of Glendale, it's the same thing. Face reality. There is $12M a year in debt service on the arena. That will always be there. The number that might be there is this AMF. Does it really make sense to spend $306M in 21 years more on the arena? (Because that's what the lease would be. The team will get all the revenue from the arena, plus a fee to manage it.) Can the city really expect $306M in secondary income from having a team there? I don't know how to do the surveys and studies, but some one must. So, DO THEM!! Find out. Face reality. For the city, if the answer ends up "No," then the AMF has to be different. What works? That's the question. Maybe $15M a year, but the city gets all the revenue (with incentive clauses). I don't know. But, face reality and figure it out.

Many people and many places and many companies have gone bankrupt while basing decisions on feelings. "I don't want to admit I made a mistake." "But, having a team makes us important." What ever. Those inner feelings are not reality.

Face reality. Everyone.

Sorry if this comes across preachy, but I feel it is the truth.

Not that I know what should happen, but this is the way everyone needs to go about deciding...

 

[Fugu]

^^^ So you're suggesting that reality be taken into consideration.

Thanks for the reply. I guess I was just hoping I could see some more dirt kicked around.

Love the avatar.

 

[Killion]

Love the avatar.

...looks alot like me, first thing in the morning. doubletake.

 

[Killion]

Killion and others (especially PHX fans), Can someone see a way to make it work? That's reality.

...the "reality" thus far is most decidedly no. No one, not the COG, not the NHL, none of the previous suitors, no one with the money, time & ambition to make it work as a stand alone business has entered the field of play. Everything thats past, everything thats being contemplated today & for the future was not & is not based in reality. Numbers dont lie. Whats lacking here is a Messiah, someone with the vision & financial heft who is capable of standing on his own two feet in resurrecting the franchise, moving the arena into the top 5 box-office. The "reality" is that yes, it can be done. Absolutely doable. The harsher "reality" is that unfortunately, were stuck with low levels of talent at City Hall, the NHL... so we come here, Rage at the Machine.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Whats lacking here is a Messiah,

And that's pretty much the long and short of it.

 

[Mr McV]

^^^ So you're suggesting that reality be taken into consideration.







Love the avatar.

Thanks. It makes me look smarter than I am.