Phoenix CXXXVI - Coyotes up for sale again

[KevFu]

The other massive component is that in most team sales, the price reported is for the CONTROLLING INTEREST changing hands, and that price could be for 51% of the team or 100% of the team or somewhere in between.

 

[StreetHawk]

The other massive component is that in most team sales, the price reported is for the CONTROLLING INTEREST changing hands, and that price could be for 51% of the team or 100% of the team or somewhere in between.

But I believe that what we expect to hear when it comes to the price is that it factors that percentage being acquired and calculates the value for 100% of the team.

TF got the rockets for $2.2 billion. Whether that is for 60% or 80%, that $2.2 billion should be the price if you prorate what he agreed to pay for his share to 100% of the team.

It’s like the shark tank show. The sharks offer $100K for 20% of the business thus making the value of the business $500k.

 

[voyageur]

I would love to see the links that say 45M accumulated losses in the last 5 years. Can you supply?

It's feasible if the $100 million loan from the NHL's credit department isn't factored in. The way ownership revolves tells you that the NHL is pulling the strings on liquidity. I think the NHL will get Fertitta in the mix, when the price is right. The move increases the value of the league across the board.

 

[LeHab]

Forbes.

EBITDA estimates are the second bar graph down: Arizona Coyotes on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List
Obviously it won't include interest and taxes, but I don't imagine taxes are much of a consideration on a losing venture and interest costs can't be that crazy. Even if they are, the incoming owner could likely get those under control if Barroway hasn't already.

For a team that went bankrupt not that long ago Interest rate could be pretty high unless owners provide additional collateral. If debt is indeed around 250-300M then we could expect an extra +20M every year to cover debt (depending on length).

 

[jonathan613]

Phoenix City Council to meet in executive session to discuss possible arena deal with Suns


I assume most of you have seen this. If this is serious, then if the coyotes are to have an arena solution it seems it must be implemented in the next 2 years. Does anyone here think the AZ metro area could handle anew college arena in tempe, a refurbished suns arena in downtown and another possible coyotes arena in tribal land? This likely speeds up the timeline on a proposed sale of the coyotes i would think for a sale to happen.

 

[TheLegend]

Phoenix City Council to meet in executive session to discuss possible arena deal with Suns


I assume most of you have seen this. If this is serious, then if the coyotes are to have an arena solution it seems it must be implemented in the next 2 years. Does anyone here think the AZ metro area could handle anew college arena in tempe, a refurbished suns arena in downtown and another possible coyotes arena in tribal land? This likely speeds up the timeline on a proposed sale of the coyotes i would think for a sale to happen.

Nope.... nothing is going to change whatever timeline there is regarding a Coyotes sale.

The new college arena is only going to seat 5-6000 specifically for the hockey program and other minor sports. The current ASU basketball facility is to be remodeled.

Suns aren’t going to be open to sharing a joint use arena with the Coyotes downtown. Not as long as Sarver owns the Suns anyway. And Sarver can’t do anything for another four years.

If the Coyotes manage to work out a sale and arena deal on the Salt River reservation then the only real loser will be Glendale.

 

[Glacial]

Nope.... nothing is going to change whatever timeline there is regarding a Coyotes sale.

The new college arena is only going to seat 5-6000 specifically for the hockey program and other minor sports. The current ASU basketball facility is to be remodeled.

Suns aren’t going to be open to sharing a joint use arena with the Coyotes downtown. Not as long as Sarver owns the Suns anyway. And Sarver can’t do anything for another four years.

If the Coyotes manage to work out a sale and arena deal on the Salt River reservation then the only real loser will be Glendale.

The Coyotes timeline? I believe it's already entered paradox mode, a gordian knot of moebius strips that would inspire MC Escher in a feverish dream during delirium. It's stalled out yet resists all traditional forces that it would normally be subject to, like entropy or time's arrow.

I would concur, a college arena doesn't enter into the equation for a pro sports team (except perhaps on rare occasion of needing a backup site to play if the local arena is under renovation or a deal was made to begin with where they share (see: Carolina Hurricanes & NC State Wolfpack). The Chicago Bears played down at U of I's football stadium in Champaign during Soldier Field's renovation 16 or so years ago). I thought about this for a bit, trying to find examples where it might impact an arena, both directly (pro sports team) and indirectly (non-sports functions at an arena- concerts, conventions), and couldn't think of it. Campus music shows usually tend to be set up for the student population only. That was what gave the Coyotes college arena plan some validity, although the issue would be size. PNC Arena has a full-sized capacity for a pro-hockey team. Heck, every local university could build a new arena/stadium in a major metro and it still wouldn't impact the feasibility of a new venue for one of the pro teams or a concert venue.

The Suns seem to be in their own quagmire (the Sarver Bog) and their own stalled out timeline, although theirs hasn't contorted like the Coyotes yet. They just have to wait because they're too eager for a new venue and Phoenix isn't the Atlanta metro or Arlington. Of course, they're also a profitable team that hasn't had the financial woes the Coyotes had, they just have a lousy owner, a story shared with the Mets, Marlins, ***skins, et al.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

As much as we talk about Coyotes moving, would not shock me if Suns move too.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

As much as we talk about Coyotes moving, would not shock me if Suns move too.

Out of state? I dunno, I guess it could happen. Seattle lost the Sonics, after all, and the NBA is a league where it seems franchises are a lot more portable than other pro leagues. But I think that, given that the Suns are Arizona's longest-tenured pro sports franchise by a long shot, Phoenix will pull out all of the stops to keep them exactly where they are. And Sarver knows it.

 

[MNNumbers]

Out of state? I dunno, I guess it could happen. Seattle lost the Sonics, after all, and the NBA is a league where it seems franchises are a lot more portable than other pro leagues. But I think that, given that the Suns are Arizona's longest-tenured pro sports franchise by a long shot, Phoenix will pull out all of the stops to keep them exactly where they are. And Sarver knows it.

The latest I have from Phoenix on the mayoral election is that the runoff will be between a woman who won 43% in the initial vote, and is publicly opposed to funding sports arenas at all, and her opponent, who won 26%, and is closer to neutral, but not publicly in the Suns' favor. Given those numbers, it seems fairly impossible for the woman to lose, because she would have to win less than 25% of the vote from the other candidates, and that's not too likely.

How does that enter in? Perhaps the present council wants to get a deal done before she is sworn in??

Comments, TFP?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The latest I have from Phoenix on the mayoral election is that the runoff will be between a woman who won 43% in the initial vote, and is publicly opposed to funding sports arenas at all, and her opponent, who won 26%, and is closer to neutral, but not publicly in the Suns' favor. Given those numbers, it seems fairly impossible for the woman to lose, because she would have to win less than 25% of the vote from the other candidates, and that's not too likely.

How does that enter in? Perhaps the present council wants to get a deal done before she is sworn in??

Comments, TFP?

All I can say is that in Arizona (like in most states) a candidate's public statements on their platforms and promises go exactly as far as expediency allows them. If Sarver is determined to play a game of brinksmanship with the city, he's got all the leverage.

 

[Mightygoose]

So if the Suns the the city cannot come to terms an arena deal, any chance the Salt River Tribe (or any tribe for that matter) reach out to the Suns in the event a plan with the Coyotes doesn't gain traction?

 

[Llama19]

So if the Suns the the city cannot come to terms an arena deal, any chance the Salt River Tribe (or any tribe for that matter) reach out to the Suns in the event a plan with the Coyotes doesn't gain traction?

A joint arena on tribal land?

The revenue splits would likely not work for either party...especially with it likely being an all-or-nothing for the Coyotes...

 

[TheLegend]

@MNNumbers

There’s going to be two other seats on the Phoenix city council besides the mayor up for grabs in March. That’s something that needs to be considered.

Also another thing to consider is TSRA was originally built and funded equally by the city and the Suns, with the Suns paying back the city’s portion over the life of the lease.

Not sure if they are looking at this $400M renovation to TSRA in the same way because to date all the negotiations have been in executive sessions.

But as you pointed out, neither of these two mayoral candidates are inclined to open the city coffers for this.

 

[TheLegend]

A joint arena on tribal land?

The revenue splits would likely not work for either party...especially with it likely being an all-or-nothing for the Coyotes...

Of course you are only assuming this be the case.

Nobody knows what the Coyotes are currently negotiating.

 

[MNNumbers]

@MNNumbers

There’s going to be two other seats on the Phoenix city council besides the mayor up for grabs in March. That’s something that needs to be considered.

Also another thing to consider is TSRA was originally built and funded equally by the city and the Suns, with the Suns paying back the city’s portion over the life of the lease.

Not sure if they are looking at this $400M renovation to TSRA in the same way because to date all the negotiations have been in executive sessions.

But as you pointed out, neither of these two mayoral candidates are inclined to open the city coffers for this.

It seems like a very fluid situation. I'm aware of the rumors of new Coyotes ownership being a local consortium and that the prospective group is supposedly talking to the tribes. I'm going to make the following assumption, Legend, and you please confirm or disagree such assumption.

ASSUMPTION: The prospective ownership group understands that it needs all the revenue from the arena to make this work.

If this is the case, and there actually ARE discussions with the tribes, then the tribe must have something else in mind for the arena area - like, a casino nearby and they just want the arena to drive traffic to the casino.

In this case.....we have the following question:

Should Sarver and the city agree quickly on an arena renovation, then you have a world class arena downtown. Does the tribe still think that traffic to the arena generates enough auxiliary $$ to make their investment worthwhile?

On the other hand, if the tribes agree with the Yotes soon, and start building, does that change the city's stance with the Suns??

Seems confusing.

Personally, I have a hard time believing that there is enough $$ to be had, even on tribe land, to make such an investment work for the tribes and the Yotes, but I could easy be missing something...

 

[Llama19]

Acting Mayor - Thelda Williams (Unknown)
Vice Mayor - Jim Waring (No)
District 1 - Thelda Williams
District 3 - Debra Stark (Unknown)
District 4 - Laura Pastor (Unknown)
District 5 - Vania Guevara (Unknown, appointed to fill Valenzuela's vacancy)
District 6 - Sal DiCiccio (No)
District 7 - Michael Nowakowski (Unknown)
District 8 - Felicita Mendoza (Unknown, appointed to fill Gallego's vacancy)

Sources:

www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2017/11/16/details-phoenix-suns-arena-deal-still-cloudy-but-its-defeat-becoming-clearer/859158001/

www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2018/09/21/who-vania-guevara-felicita-mendoza-meet-new-phoenix-council-members-daniel-valenzuela-kate-gallego/1261224002/

So...my speculation on voting...

Thelda Williams (No)
Vice Mayor - Jim Waring (No)
Debra Stark (No)
Laura Pastor (No, but could be a Yes - vote swapping with Nowakowski - shades of Glendale!)
Vania Guevara (Yes)
Sal DiCiccio (No)
Michael Nowakowski (Yes)
Felicita Mendoza (Yes)

 

[Mightygoose]

A joint arena on tribal land?

The revenue splits would likely not work for either party...especially with it likely being an all-or-nothing for the Coyotes...

I was thinking the Suns going to the tribal lands instead of the Coyotes.

Based on the timeline on when the Yotes to Tribe lands start and more importantly 'why' they started....I wouldn't rule it out

 

[Llama19]

I was thinking the Suns going to the tribal lands instead of the Coyotes.

Based on the timeline on when the Yotes to Tribe lands start and more importantly 'why' they started....I wouldn't rule it out

Depending on the outcome of these closed-door sessions by the Phoenix City Council...
I would not rule out that possibility either...
The current arena, Talking Stick Resort, would be an easy naming rights transfer, too...

 

[Glacial]

Out of state? I dunno, I guess it could happen. Seattle lost the Sonics, after all, and the NBA is a league where it seems franchises are a lot more portable than other pro leagues. But I think that, given that the Suns are Arizona's longest-tenured pro sports franchise by a long shot, Phoenix will pull out all of the stops to keep them exactly where they are. And Sarver knows it.

The Suns relocating would feel the worst of Arizona's 4 pro-sports teams. As you note, they were the 1st pro team in Phoenix, and were there 20 years before the next team. Whenever anyone thinks of the Suns, Phoenix comes to mind. They're synonymous with the city & state. The Cardinals? They started out on the South Side of Chicago a century or so ago, went to St. Louis for a quarter of a century before going out to the desert. They've relocated twice, so don't seem very anchored to any one place. The Diamondbacks are an expansion team only 20 years old. The Coyotes are a WHA team which was to relocate close (Twin Cities from Winnipeg) but that fell apart, so they needed to find somewhere-anywhere to play, and have had a tumultous history in Arizona, although have had league backing for much of the time.

Unfortunately, Suns are probably the one most able to relocate of the 4. Diamondbacks feel like they can be out-bluffed. Phoenix is larger than any other metro without a baseball team except for 1 and it doesn't seem quite like ownership would relocate there or sell to interest there (Montreal. Last I checked, DMAs for Phoenix vs. Montreal were basically equal). Maybe they can find a Cobb County to gift them a stadium, but if they're playing in a new market half to a third of the size of Phoenix or smaller, they're just shooting themselves in the foot and Phoenix will end up getting an expansion team or a relocated Rays or A's (once renovations are made to the stadium though, although if MLB takes a hardline and tells Phoenix to build a new one or no team, the impasse would mean no team).

 

[TheLegend]

It seems like a very fluid situation. I'm aware of the rumors of new Coyotes ownership being a local consortium and that the prospective group is supposedly talking to the tribes. I'm going to make the following assumption, Legend, and you please confirm or disagree such assumption.

ASSUMPTION: The prospective ownership group understands that it needs all the revenue from the arena to make this work.

If this is the case, and there actually ARE discussions with the tribes, then the tribe must have something else in mind for the arena area - like, a casino nearby and they just want the arena to drive traffic to the casino.

In this case.....we have the following question:

Should Sarver and the city agree quickly on an arena renovation, then you have a world class arena downtown. Does the tribe still think that traffic to the arena generates enough auxiliary $$ to make their investment worthwhile?

On the other hand, if the tribes agree with the Yotes soon, and start building, does that change the city's stance with the Suns??

Seems confusing.

Personally, I have a hard time believing that there is enough $$ to be had, even on tribe land, to make such an investment work for the tribes and the Yotes, but I could easy be missing something...

One of the parts to this rumor was the Salt River tribe was going to "demolish" their southern casino (Casino Arizona) as part of the project. It was the original casino the Salt River tribe built and could be due for some improvements OR...... moved to a new building as part of the project. The Tohonos are doing this now over in Glendale. Their casino was opened in a generic building until they could clear all the remaining legal battles and get the new complex started.

So it is hard to say if we have a new private interest.... possibly funding or partially funding an arena as part of the project?? Something we won't know about until something breaks.

I theorized a while back that if the Yotes were to get this arena built, it could put a lot of pressure on Phoenix in regards to TSRA. That hasn't changed IMO. If Sarver and Phoenix manage to come up with an agreement before that.... (and they aren't obligated until 2022 at the earliest).... then I'll be as confused as you are.

 

[Llama19]

Just announced...the existing Talking Stick Resort Arena agreement...will not...again, will not...include a multi-purpose renovation (i.e., a reconfigured footprint for hockey)...

The Coyotes last resort is a brand, spanking, new arena built on tribal land...

Article links coming soon...

Update: Screenshot from local Fox10 News report by Jude LaCava....

 

[DowntownBooster]

The Coyotes last resort is a brand, spanking, new arena built on tribal land...

Article links coming soon...

Hopefully that will come to fruition.

 

[Llama19]

Hopefully that will come to fruition.

We shall see...we shall see...

 

[MNNumbers]

Just announced...the existing Talking Stick Resort Arena agreement...will not...again, will not...include a multi-purpose renovation (i.e., a reconfigured footprint for hockey)...

The Coyotes last resort is a brand, spanking, new arena built on tribal land...

Article links coming soon...

Update: Screenshot from local Fox10 News report by Jude LaCava....

I'm quite surprised I can't find verification of this anywhere else. If true, that is BIG for the situation in the Phoenix Valley