Phoenix CXXXVI - Coyotes up for sale again

[MNNumbers]

That's how our baseball stadium and football/soccer stadium were funded. And yet there are still some people that still complain how the baseball stadium was forced down our throats when they never actually paid for it at all. It was all with that hotel and rental tax that visitors paid for.

But here's the counter argument:
If all that tax money was available without damaging the tourist economy, then the tax should have been higher than it was previous to the bill that financed the stadium. So, the "new money" that financed the stadium should have already been in the system financing roads or schools or some such. And, thus, the money for the stadium actually came from the citizens, because they had to make up the difference in some way.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Y'know, do cities really need neighborhood parks? Wouldn't that land be better utilized by selling more residences to generate more property tax, y'know to fund *essential* services like police, fire, etc.?

But would anyone, ironically, wanna live in cities like that?

 

[blueandgoldguy]

While your list project is amicable..... it's a bit too generic and doesn't define just what is generating all that "public funding".

Example..... Much of the "public funding" (for State Farm Stadium and the spring training facilities) comes from hotel and rental car taxes (which the latter is still being contested in the courts). These are generated by out of state visitors to the state. So AZ residents are not paying all of that.

With Arizona being a major tourism destination it opens up that funding mechanism.

Well it's certainly not coming from the owners. In those cases, the public is paying for it through hotels and rental cars AND the majority of people purchasing those things are not there to see baseball.

When doing my research, there appeared to be a theme emerging - shortfalls in the revenue projections designed to pay for these facilities, particularly these baseball stadiums/complexes.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

That's how our baseball stadium and football/soccer stadium were funded. And yet there are still some people that still complain how the baseball stadium was forced down our throats when they never actually paid for it at all. It was all with that hotel and rental tax that visitors paid for.

Public still pays for it in the end though. And the majority of the stays at the hotels and rental agencies do not involve seeing the sports team in any way,shape or form.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Y'know, do cities really need neighborhood parks? Wouldn't that land be better utilized by selling more residences to generate more property tax, y'know to fund *essential* services like police, fire, etc.?

But would anyone, ironically, wanna live in cities like that?

A city park is available to any one regardless of income 24 hours a day for free. A pro sports facility has limited availability to what is mostly a small, select group within a city - the upper-middle and upper income groups. One is a genuine public good while the other is not.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Yes, perhaps, but is it *necessary*? Again could that money be better spent elsewhere?

We have multiple cities in greater Phoenix that have very nice arts centers as well. Yes, you can walk in and look around for free, but when they have popular artists and charge for those artists...presumably because the artist wants to get paid...?

Obviously where I'm going with this is that it's not as black and white as some of you would like to think, imho.

 

[gstommylee]

Public still pays for it in the end though. And the majority of the stays at the hotels and rental agencies do not involve seeing the sports team in any way,shape or form.

Huge difference is the general public taxer payer didn't pay for it which is intentionally ignored by these people.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Berkeley Breathed (cartoonist, "Bloom County") "...If you'll read the subtext for many of those old strips, you'll find the heart of an old-fashioned Libertarian. And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners"

 

[Cacciaguida]

I don't know how tax dodging is seen as a pejorative. Why spend more money if you don't have to?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I don't know how tax dodging is seen as a pejorative. Why spend more money if you don't have to?

Contact Us — Berkeley Breathed - Bloom County

 

[MNNumbers]

I think there was discussion here about a renovation for the Suns' arena. Has anyone seen this yet this morning?

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2018/...ies-next-month-with-no-public-input/#comments

or, this, which is the article linked above:

Is Phoenix really going to plunk down $150 million on the Suns arena?

 

[Llama19]

I think there was discussion here about a renovation for the Suns' arena. Has anyone seen this yet this morning?

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2018/...ies-next-month-with-no-public-input/#comments

or, this, which is the article linked above:

Is Phoenix really going to plunk down $150 million on the Suns arena?

Yep...seen it...discussed before...no joint Coyotes/Suns arena...as stated before...last option is with the Salt River Pima-Maricopa tribe...which is highly unlikely...

 

[Fairview]

Yep...seen it...discussed before...no joint Coyotes/Suns arena...as stated before...last option is with the Salt River Pima-Maricopa tribe...which is highly unlikely...

I still believe that, in spite of team/league posturing, the team will remain at GRA for years to come. The tribe building an arena for the team, handing over all revenue and then covering the team's continuing losses seems way too far fetched.

 

[gstommylee]

But here's the counter argument:
If all that tax money was available without damaging the tourist economy, then the tax should have been higher than it was previous to the bill that financed the stadium. So, the "new money" that financed the stadium should have already been in the system financing roads or schools or some such. And, thus, the money for the stadium actually came from the citizens, because they had to make up the difference in some way.

It was only a small % of the tax money from that tax that was went fund the stadiums. My point was that the anti public fund tax folks here in the region intentionally ignore that the everyday tax payer did not pay for it.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I still believe that, in spite of team/league posturing, the team will remain at GRA for years to come. The tribe building an arena for the team, handing over all revenue and then covering the team's continuing losses seems way too far fetched.

Then they should bite the bullet and commit to a longer term lease.

Why would a fan get invested in that situation.

If you think like I do that the only option in Phoenix is to stay in Glendale, then the lease situation and relationship to Glendale would make this a bad investment for any interested local.

 

[MNNumbers]

It was only a small % of the tax money from that tax that was went fund the stadiums. My point was that the anti public fund tax folks here in the region intentionally ignore that the everyday tax payer did not pay for it.

But this is exactly what I am saying Tommy. It doesn't matter what the % was....It was still 9 figures.

Consider all the revenue in one pot. Every thing you take for "extra stuff - like a stadium" is now unavailable for use elsewhere. You can say several things:

1 - But that money is just from tourists. It's not local money. Maybe not, but the fact that you can raise the tax without damaging the local economy means that the tax could be higher already and that money used for other things.
2- But it's a tourist tax, and state law (or, whatever) prohibits its use in the general fund. Maybe true, but that is a state law problem, NOT a problem with the availability of the money.

The bottom line is that the taxpayers ARE paying for it one way or another. That's why they need to be involved in the conversation. I'm not saying it should never be used that way. I'm saying that no matter how you try to spin it, the local guy is still paying.

 

[GuelphStormer]

I don't know how tax dodging is seen as a pejorative. Why spend more money if you don't have to?

when you go outside, do you breathe?
drink water from the tap?
receive any health care?
have a phone that uses cell towers or phone lines?
go when the light turns green, stop when it turns red?

all of these activities are either underwritten or made safe by public good expenditures and everyone pays into that big pile of money that pays for it all.

sure, we can argue about the efficiencies of various public expenditures, but i dont know how tax dodging can be seen as anything but a pejorative.

 

[Fairview]

Then they should bite the bullet and commit to a longer term lease.

Why would a fan get invested in that situation.

If you think like I do that the only option in Phoenix is to stay in Glendale, then the lease situation and relationship to Glendale would make this a bad investment for any interested local.

I agree that they should commit to a long term lease. It would give die hard fans.. piece of mind. On the other hand, we know that the lease, signed sealed and delivered, isn't worth the price of the paper it is written on.And what has this team ever done for its fan base?
This situation gives the team owners the flexibility to jump at a chance to score the "BIG SUBSIDY". That is what this is all about.
I would absolutely love to see an offer from a city even further away and more inconvenient from the desired east side fan base. Of course, the team would jump on the offer and the spin would be hilarious.

 

[TheLegend]

I think there was discussion here about a renovation for the Suns' arena. Has anyone seen this yet this morning?

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2018/...ies-next-month-with-no-public-input/#comments

or, this, which is the article linked above:

Is Phoenix really going to plunk down $150 million on the Suns arena?

Mike Sunnucks (who writes for Sport Business Journal now) seems to think a push is on to approve the reno.

 

[Tawnos]

when you go outside, do you breathe?
drink water from the tap?
receive any health care?
have a phone that uses cell towers or phone lines?
go when the light turns green, stop when it turns red?

all of these activities are either underwritten or made safe by public good expenditures and everyone pays into that big pile of money that pays for it all.

sure, we can argue about the efficiencies of various public expenditures, but i dont know how tax dodging can be seen as anything but a pejorative.

Most importantly: do the customers who you make your money from need all that infrastructure and everything else to consume your product and/or service?

 

[aqib]

Yes, perhaps, but is it *necessary*? Again could that money be better spent elsewhere?

We have multiple cities in greater Phoenix that have very nice arts centers as well. Yes, you can walk in and look around for free, but when they have popular artists and charge for those artists...presumably because the artist wants to get paid...?

Obviously where I'm going with this is that it's not as black and white as some of you would like to think, imho.

One of the things I find interesting is that people who scream bloody murder about sports subsidies are ok with tax month for other recreational activities. Like when I was in Cleveland we had to renew the 4.5 cent per pack of cigarette taxes for the stadiums and people were screaming how unfair those taxes were because they disproportionately effect the poor. A few months later those very same people were vocally supporting a 30 cent per pack tax to support the arts. I was like "so you're just saying my hobby is better than yours"

 

[Voight]

Toxic asset.

 

[Llama19]

 

[Mightygoose]

No surprise that there won't be a vote at next week's BoG.

What will be curious to see if we get any names, no longer in the mystery investor(s) stage.

For Carolina, last year's Winters meetings Dundon's name became public for the first time with a sale agreement announced. Approval was a month later.

Will this follow the same path?

 

[TheLegend]

Morgan was obviously being sarcastic. He’s hearing the same rumors as everyone else. Meanwhile the Coyotes remain silent.