Phoenix CXXXVI - Coyotes up for sale again

[gstommylee]

Right.... and had Fertitta plucked down $650 million and asked for a franchise in Houston the league would have said “no thanks.”

NHL went on record last year saying the expansion process for #32 was Seattle and only Seattle. They weren't going to expand to 33 teams at all.

 

[BonkTastic]

Right.... and had Fertitta plucked down $650 million and asked for a franchise in Houston the league would have said “no thanks.”

As a counter-point, at what point does a pro sports league have too many teams?

32 seems to be the soft cap. I imagine if Ferritta had offered $650mil for a team, the NHL would have had Houston and Seattle apply against eachother for the single expansion spot.

Obviously I'm going off of nothing other than my gut, but does a 33 team league become the source of ridicule based on it's bloated size vs it's place in the North American echelon of pro sports (in last / 4th place by a good margin)?

There is - literally - not a single major sports league on earth with more than 32 teams in it. I'm not entirely convinced the NHL is ready, bold or confident enough in themselves or their place in the market to be the first to break that glass ceiling.

 

[TheLegend]

NHL went on record last year saying the expansion process for #32 was Seattle and only Seattle. They weren't going to expand to 33 teams at all.

Only because OVG were the only group ready to submit..... after three years and three other groups worth of floundering around.

My point was had there been another offer presented up to the league with all the boxes checked at the same time then you couldn’t say the league wouldn’t have been open to it.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Yes, I agree. We opened this mega thread for business , and I don't want them to close it again...but the reality is that nothing seems to be happening, except some vague references to having things done by at first " early December" , then " around Christmas " and lately " end of the season".

And keeping a thread active when nothing related is happening is a good idea becauuussseeee....?

I think that when the dates keep changing the way they have, we are looking at smoke and mirror activity in all likelihood. NHL propaganda.

Or, that there is actually nothing happening.

There are none so blind as those who will not see ("there's nothing happening...but they *must* be hiding *something*!...I feel it in my gut!")...

When even those such as yourself are saying things like...again...

"...the reality is that nothing seems to be happening..."

...ya gotta wonder if one's just wasting one's time...

 

[TheLegend]

As a counter-point, at what point does a pro sports league have too many teams?

32 seems to be the soft cap. I imagine if Ferritta had offered $650mil for a team, the NHL would have had Houston and Seattle apply against eachother for the single expansion spot.

Obviously I'm going off of nothing other than my gut, but does a 33 team league become the source of ridicule based on it's bloated size vs it's place in the North American echelon of pro sports (in last / 4th place by a good margin)?

There is - literally - not a single major sports league on earth with more than 32 teams in it. I'm not entirely convinced the NHL is ready, bold or confident enough in themselves or their place in the market to be the first to break that glass ceiling.

There is no magic number on how many teams a sports league should have.

It’s all driven by money.... and how many people out there willing to pump serious cash into getting a piece of the action.

Look at how the NHL has been considering expanding into Europe and Asia.... originally with exhibition games and now games that actually count in the standings.

There will be some point where saturation takes effect but just because no other sport has tried going beyond 32 teams doesn’t mean it can’t happen.

 

[BonkTastic]

There is no magic number on how many teams a sports league should have.

If this were true, then there would already be a league with more than 32 teams somewhere out there. It might be true in the future, but evidence right now tells us that 32 is the most a league is willing to bare at the moment.

It’s all driven by money.... and how many people out there willing to pump serious cash into getting a piece of the action.

If everything were about money, then all cities in North Amwrica would have legalized gambling, prostitution, and drugs.

It's very clearly NOT all about the money, or else someone else would have done it already. The current evidence suggests that there are significant factors other than "how many people out there willing to pump serious cash into getting a piece of the action".

Look at how the NHL has been considering expanding into Europe and Asia.... originally with exhibition games and now games that actually count in the standings.

Look at how the NFL has been considering expanding into Canada, origunally with exhibition games and then games that actually count in the standings.

I'm not holding my breath waiting to buy a Toronto Bills jersey any time soon...

There will be some point where saturation takes effect but just because no other sport has tried going beyond 32 teams doesn’t mean it can’t happen.

For sure. It'll probably be done some time in the future. I called it a "soft cap" for a reason.

Someone will do it. Probably someone with a league so profitable and such a dominant market share and stability and consumer confidence to make that bold step. Or... A league so desperate for revenue that it's willing to be poked fun at for being "the wrong league" to do it.

I doubt the NHL is either of those. Just my personal opinion, though.

 

[Fairview]

And keeping a thread active when nothing related is happening is a good idea becauuussseeee....?


Or, that there is actually nothing happening.

There are none so blind as those who will not see ("there's nothing happening...but they *must* be hiding *something*!...I feel it in my gut!")...

When even those such as yourself are saying things like...again...


...ya gotta wonder if one's just wasting one's time...

Yes. Hence my comment about smoke and mirrors. Just an illusion. There is someone on F40 claiming that big things are happening, though. Yet we see nothing tangible. Just wishful thinking on his part maybe?
As far as keeping this thread open, I am a creature of habit and any change in my habit is bothersome, therefore I am hoping it stays open.

 

[TheLegend]

Yes. Hence my comment about smoke and mirrors. Just an illusion. There is someone on F40 claiming that big things are happening, though. Yet we see nothing tangible. Just wishful thinking on his part maybe?
As far as keeping this thread open, I am a creature of habit and any change in my habit is bothersome, therefore I am hoping it stays open.

I dunno.... I enjoyed the brief respite from the daily dose of snark it seemed to generate. Plus.... I only needed to read my Twitter timeline once.

I also wouldn't characterize what's being said on F40 as "big things". Whatever is happening is still progressing along, but like everything else, it could get derailed at any point.

 

[MNNumbers]

I read on F40 that the proposed reno to TSRA is not going to pass? Can someone reading here from Phoenix offer details about this information? I thought the CC vote was not yet?

 

[Mightygoose]

I read on F40 that the proposed reno to TSRA is not going to pass? Can someone reading here from Phoenix offer details about this information? I thought the CC vote was not yet?

I found this article that polls an overwhelmingly majority of taxpayers oppose the deal

Phoenix voters oppose Suns arena deal (which explains why this is a rush job)

Now the polls themselves don't mean much but towards the end of the article it alludes to 3 councillors will vote no with only 4 needed to kill the plan and others are wavering.

The vote is scheduled for tomorrow

 

[The Feckless Puck]

There is someone on F40 claiming that big things are happening, though. Yet we see nothing tangible. Just wishful thinking on his part maybe?

I will say this - the posters who have been floating the tidbits of info on F40 have an excellent track record in terms of having better-than-rumor-level information. Devil's advocate, though, is that it's still hearsay and we don't have anything tangible to confirm/deny what they're saying.

Reading the tea leaves is always an iffy proposition. I was convinced 100% that Houston was in the mix right up until yesterday, when suddenly information came out about resistance from Houston's arena authority, a possible pivot to Austin, etc. So I have to question everything I believe about what might happen. That the F40 rumors fit with what I believe is the only real solution for a new arena in Arizona might be wonderful confirmation bias, but it's not (yet) hard news.

 

[lgrwmike]

Mark Berman‏ @MarkBermanFox26 1h1 hour ago
More
NHL sources: #Rockets owner @TillmanJFertitta has met with NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman about potential of bringing the NHL to Houston. Fertitta has had preliminary talks about buying & relocating the @ArizonaCoyotes to Houston. Nothing on that happening now. No decisions close

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

And keeping a thread active when nothing related is happening is a good idea becauuussseeee....?


Or, that there is actually nothing happening.

There are none so blind as those who will not see ("there's nothing happening...but they *must* be hiding *something*!...I feel it in my gut!")...

When even those such as yourself are saying things like...again...


...ya gotta wonder if one's just wasting one's time...

We know Barroway is looking to sell a significant stake in the team, and we know that will rely on getting some sort of arena deal done, if the NHL/Coyotes rhetoric on GRA and the COG is to be believed.

This team has been available for purchase at some level basically every year since, what, 2008? (Except the first couple Ice Arizona years. And we all know how stable the franchise was then.)

I don't see anyone taking the plunge now, and if no one takes the plunge, then Barroway is left holding the bag and is forced to sell to someone.

but logical decisions are not standard in this saga, so a local option popping up isn't out of the realm of possibility.

The tribes has been a hail mary solution that has been bandied about since at least 2009. I proposed it as a tit for tat way for the COG to end a lawsuit with the tribes that year.

With the NHL embracing Vegas, maybe it opens up options that were not there before, but either way, something has to give.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Mark Berman‏ @MarkBermanFox26 1h1 hour ago
More
NHL sources: #Rockets owner @TillmanJFertitta has met with NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman about potential of bringing the NHL to Houston. Fertitta has had preliminary talks about buying & relocating the @ArizonaCoyotes to Houston. Nothing on that happening now. No decisions close

the nhl cant officially say anything Bettman refutes Thrashers-to-Winnipeg reports

 

[Cor]

the nhl cant officially say anything Bettman refutes Thrashers-to-Winnipeg reports

It's funny. 2 weeks later the official announcement was made.

Relocation is one of those things you need to pretend has no chance of happening until you are officially doing it, because if a deal falls apart, you've now alienated that fanbase.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Which NHL sources? That's my question. Bob McKenzie talked to his sources after the BoG meetings and he ended up reporting that Austin has a better shot than Houston. But of course, now that someone tweets something that fits the local narrative here, that gets all the likes and replies.

Nothing in that tweet is new, anyway. We already know that Fertitta talked to the BoG about the NHL and that he discussed the Coyotes. We've known that since before Fertitta did that interview where he said that hockey doesn't work in the south.

Still nothing concrete.

 

[Mightygoose]

So the question is how soon is Tillman's recent talk about the Coyotes per Mr. Berman's tweet?

Bob McKenzie is pretty reliable with his intel so I do find it strange that he's say the local authorities that run (though they actually own it) the arena are not interested in hockey, while it's Fertitta's pursuit. Yet no mention of that.

So nothing appears to be imminent, we do know that's the Coyotes is the team in question. IIRC this is the first time there's talk of Tillman speaking specifically about the Coyotes. Before that it was general interest and people connecting their own dots.

In the article below talking about Austin, it was specifically about unknown markets the league can expand to. If the Coyotes to Houston is possible that would be a good reason not to be on the radar according to McKenzie.

https://www.tsn.ca/insider-trading-are-there-any-unknown-markets-the-nhl-could-expand-to-1.1222220


At this time all of the talk of mystery buyers for the team, his name is the only one to surface so far. That needs change for a local solution and I think soon.

 

[TheLegend]

The only thing missing from this latest discussion are the pictures of shoes and FlightAware data.....

 

[The Feckless Puck]

So nothing appears to be imminent, we do know that's the Coyotes is the team in question. IIRC this is the first time there's talk of Tillman speaking specifically about the Coyotes. Before that it was general interest and people connecting their own dots.

I don't think you're remembering correctly. I think it was obvious from the first that discussions between Fertitta and the NHL involved whether or not the Coyotes were available for purchase for relocation rather than Fertitta having to submit an expansion bid. All of this seems to me to be old news, resurrected by a local Houston sportscaster to get clicks. I mean, yeah, everything he tweeted was true, but the context is misleading - he makes it look, given the tweet's timing, that this happened recently. But barring any additional confirmation I will continue to believe that he's referencing the previous months-old information and doing so on the heels of McKenzie's report post-BoG.

Full disclosure: I still think the Coyotes to Houston is extremely likely. But this guy's tweet isn't a "smocking gun" to me.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I'm kinda getting Balkan flashbacks about these rumoured local buyers.

All I'm saying is if we get a photo of a foot, im calling shenanigans

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I'm kinda getting Balkan flashbacks about these rumoured local buyers.

All I'm saying is if we get a photo of a foot, im calling shenanigans

Waitaminit - I saw an airplane at Sky Harbor today.

Airplane... FlightAware... aeroplane... HOUSTON AEROS!!!

 

[Mightygoose]

I don't think you're remembering correctly. I think it was obvious from the first that discussions between Fertitta and the NHL involved whether or not the Coyotes were available for purchase for relocation rather than Fertitta having to submit an expansion bid. All of this seems to me to be old news, resurrected by a local Houston sportscaster to get clicks. I mean, yeah, everything he tweeted was true, but the context is misleading - he makes it look, given the tweet's timing, that this happened recently. But barring any additional confirmation I will continue to believe that he's referencing the previous months-old information and doing so on the heels of McKenzie's report post-BoG.

Full disclosure: I still think the Coyotes to Houston is extremely likely. But this guy's tweet isn't a "smocking gun" to me.

Perhaps there was talk specifically about the Coyotes earlier, but posts on HF doesn't count

I guess if we start hearing Barroway talking to Feritta then it's a different tune....after all he 'owns' this still

 

[Fairview]

I think that the recent mention of the supposed closing date of the sale moving from early December to around Christmas time to now the latest ...season's end kind of adds fuel to the fire. It's the same way the Atlanta sale went down, and right up to the end, the continued to mention of a local white knight coming to the rescue. It helped keep that fan base somewhat engaged, even though from the outside there was no way that any local ownership was going to make a go of it in that arena. Of course that could be just a coincidence with this situation.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I think that the recent mention of the supposed closing date of the sale moving from early December to around Christmas time to now the latest ...season's end kind of adds fuel to the fire. It's the same way the Atlanta sale went down, and right up to the end, the continued to mention of a local white knight coming to the rescue. It helped keep that fan base somewhat engaged, even though from the outside there was no way that any local ownership was going to make a go of it in that arena. Of course that could be just a coincidence with this situation.

It's impossible not to note the similarities of the situation, but there are some crucial differences. Among them, Atlanta had nowhere to play the next season - that situation does not exist with the Coyotes. Also, Chipman/TNSE were ready, lock stock and barrel, to take a team (in fact, it was very nearly the Coyotes rather than the Thrashers), while Fertitta is nowhere near positioned in the same state of immediate readiness.

What to make, too, of Elliotte Friedman's allegation on his podcast that the theoretical new owner of the team might have enough sway to keep the Coyotes in the Pacific? If the new owner was Fertitta, it stands to reason that playing in the Central would be ideal - in fact, the Coyotes' move to the Central is one of the key tenets of the Imminent Relocation Theory.

As questionable as Barroway's ownership/"ownership" looks financially, I don't think it's quite at the level that would demand an immediate relocation to Houston at the end of this season. And if Bob McKenzie's sources are to be believed, the Houston arena authority's reported lack of interest in the NHL at this time would seem to preclude anything imminent.

Anyway, Houston may still happen - just think the timeline is a little farther out than we expect. Not for nothing do I think that the Seattle timeline is as far out as they made it - if things aren't resolved with Arizona ownership before then, I think the Coyotes play their first season in Houston at the same time as Seattle starts playing.

 

[Fairview]

It's impossible not to note the similarities of the situation, but there are some crucial differences. Among them, Atlanta had nowhere to play the next season - that situation does not exist with the Coyotes. Also, Chipman/TNSE were ready, lock stock and barrel, to take a team (in fact, it was very nearly the Coyotes rather than the Thrashers), while Fertitta is nowhere near positioned in the same state of immediate readiness.

What to make, too, of Elliotte Friedman's allegation on his podcast that the theoretical new owner of the team might have enough sway to keep the Coyotes in the Pacific? If the new owner was Fertitta, it stands to reason that playing in the Central would be ideal - in fact, the Coyotes' move to the Central is one of the key tenets of the Imminent Relocation Theory.

As questionable as Barroway's ownership/"ownership" looks financially, I don't think it's quite at the level that would demand an immediate relocation to Houston at the end of this season. And if Bob McKenzie's sources are to be believed, the Houston arena authority's reported lack of interest in the NHL at this time would seem to preclude anything imminent.

Anyway, Houston may still happen - just think the timeline is a little farther out than we expect. Not for nothing do I think that the Seattle timeline is as far out as they made it - if things aren't resolved with Arizona ownership before then, I think the Coyotes play their first season in Houston at the same time as Seattle starts playing.

I know what you mean about the arena situation in Atlanta. We do have Bettman out in front of this by saying that Glendale is not viable, however. So that is part of the NHL dialogue as well, should they decide to pull the plug