Phoenix CXXXVI - Coyotes up for sale again

[The Feckless Puck]

But who's going to pay for the reno's and upgrades? CoP is balking at paying Sarver $250MM for that and Barroway hasn't won the Powerball. I would guess it would cost more to gut parts of the arena for hockey sightlines and put in an ice plant if it doesn't already have one as well.

I bet you anything that if there was even a hint of the Suns actually leaving, the NHL and Barroway would offer a TSRA solution that was a better deal than what Sarver was demanding. It'd certainly be less money than their new build ask.

It's basically a moot point because I think Sarver has zero leverage right now, and he knows it. But the idea is still titillating.

 

[Mightygoose]

Suddenly, another possible pile of dirt emerges for the Coyotes!

I can't imagine another pro sports owner who has less leverage - other than Andy Barroway, of course - than Robert Sarver has in this situation. But man, if he did decide to leave town, the Coyotes would have the answer to all of their prayers.

Also it appears city council is going to delay the vote until January 23

City sources: Phoenix City Council delays $230M Suns arena renovation vote

Will schedule 2 sessions for public input. On the heels of this threat perhaps. Could also be a swing vote(s) is satisfied by letting the public have a bit more than a peek at this thing before it gets the green light

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Suns move and then yotes play in TSRA. that would be a plot twist and a half, but theres still quite a few hurdles to overcome.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

But who's going to pay for the reno's and upgrades? CoP is balking at paying Sarver $250MM for that and Barroway hasn't won the Powerball. I would guess it would cost more to gut parts of the arena for hockey sightlines and put in an ice plant if it doesn't already have one as well.

Considering Disney on ice was there in April, they must have some sort of solution.

 

[gstommylee]

No way Seattle would want Shaver as an owner. Shaver would want revenue demands that OVG will probably not accept.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Suddenly, another possible pile of dirt emerges for the Coyotes!

I can't imagine another pro sports owner who has less leverage - other than Andy Barroway, of course - than Robert Sarver has in this situation. But man, if he did decide to leave town, the Coyotes would have the answer to all of their prayers.

I mean, to what? Suns are not the reason why they are struggling attendance wise. It is not going to fix the location of their arena issue if the Suns move somewhere else, and it is not gonna make Talking Stick an NHL arena.

 

[gstommylee]

I mean, to what? Suns are not the reason why they are struggling attendance wise. It is not going to fix the location of their arena issue if the Suns move somewhere else, and it is not gonna make Talking Stick an NHL arena.

Playing in downtown phx might be better than playing in glendale however, it still going to require serious coin out of barroway to renovate the arena to NHL specs. Given how things are going with the suns and city of phoenix. I doubt its going to happen even if the suns do move.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I mean, to what? Suns are not the reason why they are struggling attendance wise. It is not going to fix the location of their arena issue if the Suns move somewhere else, and it is not gonna make Talking Stick an NHL arena.

Interesting that you say "Suns are not the reason why they are struggling attendance wise." I have watched a couple of recent Suns games and their arena looks emptier than Gila River Arena does. So you're right - the Suns aren't the reason for the Coyotes' attendance woes, but the Suns' attendance woes and the Coyotes' are directly related because they are both products of years of terrible teams and utter mismanagement.

If the Suns did move (and the chances of that happening are barely in the low single digits), it would leave TSRA without an anchor tenant. There is a conceivable timeline, if that happened, that would see the Coyotes spend less to renovate and move into TSRA than they would to build a whole new arena in Tempe; also, if faced with renovating the building for the Coyotes or leaving TSRA without an anchor tenant, I would guess the City of Phoenix would be a little more amenable to pitching in to help - certainly more amenable than any other city in Phoenix Metro would be subsidizing a new arena for ice hockey. If those pieces fell into place, then the Coyotes would have a prime downtown location without the revenue shortfalls that made downtown untenable prior to their move to Glendale.

Speculative? Yes. But that's wholly in character with the megathreads.

 

[gstommylee]

Interesting that you say "Suns are not the reason why they are struggling attendance wise." I have watched a couple of recent Suns games and their arena looks emptier than Gila River Arena does. So you're right - the Suns aren't the reason for the Coyotes' attendance woes, but the Suns' attendance woes and the Coyotes' are directly related because they are both products of years of terrible teams and utter mismanagement.

If the Suns did move (and the chances of that happening are barely in the low single digits), it would leave TSRA without an anchor tenant. There is a conceivable timeline, if that happened, that would see the Coyotes spend less to renovate and move into TSRA than they would to build a whole new arena in Tempe; also, if faced with renovating the building for the Coyotes or leaving TSRA without an anchor tenant, I would guess the City of Phoenix would be a little more amenable to pitching in to help - certainly more amenable than any other city in Phoenix Metro would be subsidizing a new arena for ice hockey. If those pieces fell into place, then the Coyotes would have a prime downtown location without the revenue shortfalls that made downtown untenable prior to their move to Glendale.

Speculative? Yes. But that's wholly in character with the megathreads.

TSRA would probably need a renovation to work as a NHL arena and that would be up to the coyotes to pay for the costs.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

TSRA would probably need a renovation to work as a NHL arena and that would be up to the coyotes to pay for the costs.

Yes, that's obvious. But the renovations would cost less than a new building. Also, in this theoretical model, presumably there would be new owners or investors in the franchise who could increase the team's contribution above and beyond what they have previously said they'd contribute to their East Valley arena dream.

At any rate, the reason it's not going to happen isn't logistical - it's that Robert Sarver is a yutz who doesn't realize he's got zero negotiating leverage right now, and that neither Seattle nor Las Vegas would want anything to do with his self-lit Dumpster fire.

 

[AZviaNJ]

Yes, that's obvious. But the renovations would cost less than a new building. Also, in this theoretical model, presumably there would be new owners or investors in the franchise who could increase the team's contribution above and beyond what they have previously said they'd contribute to their East Valley arena dream.

At any rate, the reason it's not going to happen isn't logistical - it's that Robert Sarver is a yutz who doesn't realize he's got zero negotiating leverage right now, and that neither Seattle nor Las Vegas would want anything to do with his self-lit Dumpster fire.

Yeah, Sarver will soon find out that threatening is not an intelligent negotiating strategy.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Yeah, Sarver will soon find out that threatening is not an intelligent negotiating strategy.

He'll also discover something he should have known already - you don't use Jerry Colangelo's baby as a negotiating hammer.

 

[snovalleyhockeyfan]

No way Seattle would want Shaver as an owner. Shaver would want revenue demands that OVG will probably not accept.

Yes, that's obvious. But the renovations would cost less than a new building. Also, in this theoretical model, presumably there would be new owners or investors in the franchise who could increase the team's contribution above and beyond what they have previously said they'd contribute to their East Valley arena dream.

At any rate, the reason it's not going to happen isn't logistical - it's that Robert Sarver is a yutz who doesn't realize he's got zero negotiating leverage right now, and that neither Seattle nor Las Vegas would want anything to do with his self-lit Dumpster fire.

Yeah, Sarver will soon find out that threatening is not an intelligent negotiating strategy.

Tommy is correct about SEA with respect to Sarver. Guess here is he'd probably look for 100% revenue from Oak View and that's not part of the business model so no thanks. Frankly, the NBA's commissioner needs to step in and tell this owner to knock it off.

https://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/corporate/us/en/public factsheets/tv/2018-19-dma-ranker.pdf

Mr. Sarver is threatening to move his team out of the #12 TV market in the country to either the #13 but fast-growing (Seattle) OR in Vegas the #39 market. Both markets he wants to move to are smaller AND he will face competition from the NHL. In Seattle he'd have to be a tenant similar to what some of you are speculating could be the case for Melnyk if he attempted to move the Senators to Quebec City, and I'm not too sure he'll be happy with that arrangement. And if he dared try to ask for a free arena for his team standalone from any city in the Seattle/Puget Sound region after what has been done thus far with the Key, he's not going to find any takers. Not even in Bellevue.

 

[Glacial]

And let's remember, if Sarver wants to go to Vegas, he'll be a tenant in someone else's building (Golden Knights). Looks like a whole lot of bluster (although I have to admit, the Seattle Suns made me laugh).

 

[BKIslandersFan]

And let's remember, if Sarver wants to go to Vegas, he'll be a tenant in someone else's building (Golden Knights). Looks like a whole lot of bluster (although I have to admit, the Seattle Suns made me laugh).

I think MSG is building another arena that’s NBA size but I don’t know if it’s conducive for pro sports or just concerts.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Yes, that's obvious. But the renovations would cost less than a new building. Also, in this theoretical model, presumably there would be new owners or investors in the franchise who could increase the team's contribution above and beyond what they have previously said they'd contribute to their East Valley arena dream.

At any rate, the reason it's not going to happen isn't logistical - it's that Robert Sarver is a yutz who doesn't realize he's got zero negotiating leverage right now, and that neither Seattle nor Las Vegas would want anything to do with his self-lit Dumpster fire.

The renovation is not gonna cheap. It might cost about the same if not more than building a new one in Tempe.

 

[AZviaNJ]

He'll also discover something he should have known already - you don't use Jerry Colangelo's baby as a negotiating hammer.

Great point, don't mess with Jerry's baby!

 

[TheLegend]

As if today's news on the Suns was fun...... because the City of Oakland has now sued the Raiders and NFL, rumors are flying that the Raiders could get kicked out early and may end up playing a season in Glendale before moving into their new palace in Las Vegas.

 

[gstommylee]

And let's remember, if Sarver wants to go to Vegas, he'll be a tenant in someone else's building (Golden Knights). Looks like a whole lot of bluster (although I have to admit, the Seattle Suns made me laugh).

It'll be the same for Seattle too.

 

[Mightygoose]

If the Suns do leave, they wouldn't be gone until 2022. I really doubt Barroway lasts even close to that long never mind putting up enough funds into renovations that's palatable to city council.

This would open up allot of discretional and corporate dollars but without a new investors soon, it will be moot anyways.

 

[Glacial]

As if today's news on the Suns was fun...... because the City of Oakland has now sued the Raiders and NFL, rumors are flying that the Raiders could get kicked out early and may end up playing a season in Glendale before moving into their new palace in Las Vegas.

There's a lot going on. The Coyotes are a perennial question mark obviously that's been uncertain so long, the uncertainty is developing a weathered patina, the Raiders as you note, then the Rays stadium plan fell apart. The prevailing assumption is the Rays will just accept being stuck in their ugly, archaic ballpark (although without sewage leaks and dead mice in the soda machines), play there for 10 years, then ???, although I would be surprised if MLB didn't have a back-up plan for the Rays if Tampa Bay became a dead end. I find it hard to believe they would just accept wasting a full decade in a park they want to get out of with no chance of a new one. Any Montrealers wanna do plane tracking or keep an ear out towards the relevant parties?

 

[gstommylee]

There's a lot going on. The Coyotes are a perennial question mark obviously that's been uncertain so long, the uncertainty is developing a weathered patina, the Raiders as you note, then the Rays stadium plan fell apart. The prevailing assumption is the Rays will just accept being stuck in their ugly, archaic ballpark (although without sewage leaks and dead mice in the soda machines), play there for 10 years, then ???, although I would be surprised if MLB didn't have a back-up plan for the Rays if Tampa Bay became a dead end. I find it hard to believe they would just accept wasting a full decade in a park they want to get out of with no chance of a new one. Any Montrealers wanna do plane tracking or keep an ear out towards the relevant parties?

Chances are that tampa MLB team probably end up in Portland.

 

[PCSPounder]

As if today's news on the Suns was fun...... because the City of Oakland has now sued the Raiders and NFL, rumors are flying that the Raiders could get kicked out early and may end up playing a season in Glendale before moving into their new palace in Las Vegas.

A more twisted sense of humor on my part involves the Raiders playing in Glendale and the Suns playing in Oracle.

In reality, though, Sarver may as well be acid reflux. Who wants that?

 

[SkalbaniasGhost]

I think MSG is building another arena that’s NBA size but I don’t know if it’s conducive for pro sports or just concerts.

Las Vegas’ new concert venue, MSG Sphere, looks insane

Don't think it's NBA ready but the a/v system must be insane.
Maybe they do like the Liberty(WNBA) did playing at Radio City Music Hall.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Las Vegas’ new concert venue, MSG Sphere, looks insane

Don't think it's NBA ready but the a/v system must be insane.
Maybe they do like the Liberty(WNBA) did playing at Radio City Music Hall.

NBA isn’t going for that set up i imagine.