TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
The only recent public statement from Silver regarding Phoenix was a story not to long ago where he commented on TSRA and it's age and all.
Since then it's been crickets.
Phoenix CXXVIII: The Grass is Always Greener On The Other Side Of The I-17
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The only recent public statement from Silver regarding Phoenix was a story not to long ago where he commented on TSRA and it's age and all.
Since then it's been crickets.
Killion
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- Feb 19, 2010
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Doesnt exactly compute does it MNN. Two Leagues, essentially the same busness model & thus competitors for the same corporate dollar, concert & event bookings, without which in receiving 100% of those proceeds they cant make a go of it. So were being asked to believe their going to split that 50/50 & no problems? On what planet, what dimension? Not when youve got duel rather than single ownership & even then, the stronger sport/franchise often devouring & spitting out the weaker.
madhi19
Just the tip!
I don't know about Silver but Garry having a pain fetish would explain a lot.Well let me just dispel that notion.... if Bettman & Silver are masochists, get off on embarrassing themselves then sure its believable... but I donr believe either has a Hurry Up *****cat Faster Faster / Elsa, She Wolf of the SS type obsession, "need discipline Mommy" type fetish so to think they'd go hat in hand to the Legislature.... kinda beggars belief no?... never mind what those visuals do to ones imagination.... possible I suppose... but nah. Not buyin. Fake News.
^^Well, how do the other 10 instances of situations like this handle it?
Boston
MSG
Barclays
Philly
Chicago
Dallas
Denver
LA
Toronto
Washington
And at first blush you might say "yeah but all of those are bigger, better markets", but...um...Denver? They've got Kroenke, yes they do, they've got Kroenke, how 'bout you?
Boston
MSG
Barclays
Philly
Chicago
Dallas
Denver
LA
Toronto
Washington
And at first blush you might say "yeah but all of those are bigger, better markets", but...um...Denver? They've got Kroenke, yes they do, they've got Kroenke, how 'bout you?
Totally agree, Killion. In the AZ market, even if there were joint ownership, I can only see the NHL team being an anvil around the neck of the NBA team. Fills dates, yes, but is, of itself, a money losing proposition. Even counting concession sales, etc, still a $$ negative. I can't see anyone going for that.
So, like I say, it doesn't make sense to me. But, I would say that there is always the slightest possibility that something like that happens. At least that they would consider that possibility.
Killion
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Totally different situations. Your comparing apples & oranges. Doesnt compute. Never mind a dumpster fire, joint ownership in a shared single building in Phoenix, anywhere in the Valley would not end well. Make the meltdown in Atlanta look like a Boy Scout Jamboree, marshmallow roast compared to a Chernobyl like meltdown that I guarantee you would occur.
If Sarver ever thought about it, and I'm sure he did, has.... theres just, no way. He's got his hands full as it is, isnt a hockey guy, could care less but cares enough to wish the Coyotes gone, extinct. They just complicate matters for him even way over in Glendale. Not about to be accommodating. Go in all sharezee's. Cut his own throat.
Killion
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Not to my knowledge, no. Shrewdly, he hasnt said anything much at all about the Coyotes. Whatever he might say misconstrued, taken out of context. He isnt "super-rich" , hotel & real estate developer, inherited wealth, not native to Phoenix, basketball guy through & through but also practical. Secondary franchises & tenants @ TSRA. Runs a lean, mean machine. Struggling but turning just enough profit to make it worthwhile. So to even think, suggest that he'd give all of that up in splitting revenues... let alone buying the Coyotes with money he doesnt have is madness. Why? Some misguided grand gesture of benevolence... munificence? Because Silver tells him to? Because some ambitious peon of an outgoing delusional Mayor wants to make his bones & rep on his dime and ultimate misfortune if he plays along?... Dont think so. And I hate Basketball. The NBA..... Silver & Sarver no time for. But c'mon here. Lets get real.
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I agree with you 100%. The supposed NHL/NBA partnership seems suspect. There isn't any logical reason for the NBA to back this. As long as the NHL is in the market they are competing with the NBA for the same corporate dollars. The best thing that could happen for the Suns would be the Coyotes leaving the state. Financially better and also it makes the chances of getting a new arena for themselves in the future much more likely. They would be dealing with a market that just a few years prior had lost a supposed major league team and therefore would be more likely to help the Suns remain in Arizona. A shared use facility in reality is a last resort for both these teams. This makes sense for the Coyotes because they are down to their last resort...the Suns are not anywhere near their last resort so why would they enable a competitor to cut into their profit? This would be like Coke helping Pepsi stay afloat.
This seems somewhat similar to the ASU partnership...all the noise about the plans/benefits are coming from one side. The other side the NBA is acting like ASU did...very very quiet and for good reason
Llama19
Registered User
Could it be? The Coyotes and the Suns may align?
From June 2017...Coyotes' ownership change could clear way to Phoenix arena
To quote:
"Phoenix insiders say Suns owner Robert Sarver wants nothing to do with the Coyotes. LeBlanc's departure might change that [speculation from the reporter]. The team's been mum on a multipurpose arena. Then again, the Suns are in no hurry.
The Suns could get out of their lease at the Phoenix-owned Talking Stick Resort Arena in 2022."
Source: http://www.12news.com/sports/coyote...clear-way-to-downtown-phoenix-arena/448061143
However, from April 2016 and the reliable source, Craig Morgan...
To quote:
"The answer is simple. Sarver doesn’t want to partner with the Coyotes  not on equal footing. He doesn’t want to split the revenue from a new arena, and he is banking on the belief that he can manipulate this situation in his favor."
Source: https://arizonasports.com/story/637440/robert-sarver-suns-arena-plans-do-not-include-coyotes/
With the recent statements about the NHL and NBA Commissioners possibly talking...the proof will be in the arena tapioca pudding...
Killion
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^^^ Right, but it just doesnt work Llama. Not even conjunctive parallel time-lines. 2022. It just beggars belief to imagine anyone absorbing those kinds of losses for another 5yrs.... As for LeBlancs "departure".... fact is.... if I lived in Arizona I'd be filing a Missing Persons Report with the Cops on that one... WTF happened to him, where is he? Totally out of character.... Was he taken for a ride out into the Sonoran Desert in a Midnight Black 64 Lincoln with suicide doors & planted or... is he now a "guest" of whatever Sanitorium, medicated, spending his afternoons making baskets or what?... Seriously.... this is really weird. Where is Tony?. Hopefully fine. But those Cabadian Boys, can play nasty... .. www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-WBZMRFFkU
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I believe in each case the teams paid their own way! Help me DOM, how is AB going to pay for his share?
Llama19
Registered User
I know none of this works..partnering the Coyotes and Suns together...Mission Impossible...that is the best part about this saga...the deceptions...the foe (sic) lawsuits...they were not aware of the particulars...the misdirections...the disappearance of the (former) major players that were at the forefront of this ownership group...champions and cheerleaders to the media...now what do we have...Barroway...persona non grata...it truly boggles the mind...
Killion
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.... easy... fly to Moscow, connector to Gdansk... buy yourself a decommissioned Cold War era Soviet Nuclear Sub for about $200K... still operative (absent the missiles of course) & sail it to South America... fill it full of Blow, Weapons & pilfered WW2 Nazi artworks & bullion...
yeah, the lot of them vanishing without a trace... like they were lost at sea... Bermuda Triangle... or perhaps arrested by Homeland Security, the DEA & the FBI...
Boris Zubov
No relation to Sergei, Joe
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
Who bleeping cares where he went.....
I can tell you most Coyotes fans don't care.
BoH's favorite whipping boy and source for slapstick has left the building. Time to move on.
You "believe"? So you don't know.
Does anyone here, seriously? Y'all are supposedly the sports business experts....right? There are 10 instances - I want point by point each city, what is the relationship between the arena and the two teams involved (3 in the case of Staples Center). Not this "I think they paid their own way, can your owner?" garbage.
Come on, impress me, folks, here is your collective chance to demonstrate your knowledge of a fairly newly relevant aspect of all this. Lets have a mature, academic discussion for once.
Edit: to clarify, I'm not asking "why is Arizonas situation different?", because I'm certainly not interested in most of your opinions why it "won't work", but rather "what are the 10 situations that are at least superficially similar? And why would the two leagues not encourage that as time goes by, for instance as just now is happening in Detroit?"
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JimAnchower
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- Dec 8, 2012
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A quick glance:
Boston - NHL owner owns/operates arena
MSG - parent company owns both teams
Barclays - NHL team paid to play there, arena owner trying to kick them out
Philly - NHL owner owns/operates arena
Chicago - owner/operator shared 50/50 by both teams
Dallas - owner/operator shared 50/50 by both teams
Denver - parent company owns both teams
LA - Operator of arena majority owner of one tenant, minority share in another
Toronto - parent company owns both teams
Washington - parent company owns both teams
Detroit - NHL owner owns/operates arena
So we've got a couple cases where the NBA doesn't own/operate the arena but only one where the NHL team doesn't. In Boston and Philly, the NHL owners owned/operated the old arena as well so the situation didn't change.
To add some to JA's post.....
In Denver, the Nuggets were there first, in the old arena, called McNichols. Their ownership purchased the Nordiques and move them to McNichols. Approximately 5 years later, Pepsi Center opened in Denver. It was built by the owners of the teams. NOT by the city. City gave the typical tax breaks, amounting to an estimated 15M (all information gathered from wikipedia).
To apply such a situation to Suns/Yotes....Sarver would have to purchase the Yotes and then, with his own money, build a new arena. How likely is that?
The other situations where NBA was there first?
1- Barclay's situation in New York. As mentioned above, Barclay's made a deal with Islanders in which the Arena Company paid the team for their presence, in return for all the sales from game nights. In other words, Barclay's took over selling tickets and everything in the arena from the Islanders. There is a large thread on this on the Islanders' board, and let's just say that the arrangement isn't working well, and there is real hope that the Isles will build their own arena elsewhere in NY.
2- Verizon Center in Washington. In this case, the owners of the NBA team purchased the NHL expansion franchise, and both teams have played in the same arena since. As the old owner became disabled due to age, Leonsis acquired, first, controlling interest in the hockey and WNBA teams, and then the Wizards later.
3- Dallas. NBA was there first, with the Mavericks, playing in old Reunion Arena, which had NO luxury suites. The arena was city-owned. When Norm Green (still sucks - sorry - we Minnesotans have bad feelings about that) moved the North Stars to Dallas, he moved from a similar situation in Bloomington. I say that because I want it clear that moving into Reunion and paying rent was not a large a hardship was it would be these days. When American Airlines Center was built, it was built jointly between city of Dallas, the Mavericks, and the Stars, with the teams promising to cover cost overruns. The Center is owned by City of Dallas, and it's operated by a management company which is co-owned by the 2 teams. So, this situation is a complete partnership.
Llama19
Registered User
Getting close to new thread title territory...
To recap:
Phoenix CXXIX: Barroway or the Highway (seems to be the favorite)
Phoenix CXXIX: Barroway - Draft Happy, Leverage Foolish
Phoenix CXXIX: We Came, We Saw, We Processed
Phoenix CXXIX: Borrow-way A Franchise
Phoenix CXXIX: Jakey's Toy Franchise Story
Phoenix CXXIX: Barroway - The BIG Farce
To recap:
Phoenix CXXIX: Barroway or the Highway (seems to be the favorite)
Phoenix CXXIX: Barroway - Draft Happy, Leverage Foolish
Phoenix CXXIX: We Came, We Saw, We Processed
Phoenix CXXIX: Borrow-way A Franchise
Phoenix CXXIX: Jakey's Toy Franchise Story
Phoenix CXXIX: Barroway - The BIG Farce
Well I guess you had a response to your challenge. The Az. situation looks starkly different than your selected markets with teams sharing buildings. The difference here is that Sarver has made it well known that he does not need nor want the Coyotes as a partner. Five years from now it may well be a different story for him and possibly the city of Phoenix.
What we do know is that pro forma illustrations of the Coyotes financial picture suggests that they will need 100% of arena revenues to ever have a chance to make it. Before the Barroway led organization will ever have a chance to remain in AZ they will need to address many things all related to the financial precipice the franchise is now teetering on. To reach a position of positive cash flow AB needs to find a way to pare down the yearly losses, while at the same time pay down the mountain of debt that he has accumulated to gain control. Interest expense of this size offsets any help the league may be willing to provide!
A look around the league suggests the only way to get to the promised land of financial stability is to ice a winning team and create a hockey culture that the fanbase can get excited about. Nashville/smashville just printed the textbook on how to achieve such success. Meanwhile, AB is creating a culture of distrust and instability with his drive to slash costs and experience all in the name of going with youth and a large dose of hope.
The Coyotes success is now being pinned solely on the shoulders of one Andrew Barroway, a hedge fund manager with a daunting turn around on his plate. If he is like others in his trade, his MO is strictly financial, he does not care about the methods used to extract his pound of flesh. In his world it is all about cost cutting and "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." That simplistic capitalistic attitude may work on some enterprises, but not likely when your customer views your product and his cash as purely discretionary.
Rarely do we see business success on this scale from a novice. AB has shown his inexperience time and again, exhibiting the type of financial reckless abandon reserved for those who have already made their money and set out on a lark to have fun with a new venture. Failure in Glendale will be of his own making, choosing to double down on a known loser. The faces that have come and gone in the last four years are testament to the fact that this is a heavy contact venture, AB is still standing, but my bet is he won`t be for long!
Slashers98
Registered User
Phoenix CXXIX: We Came, We Saw, We Processed is definitely my pick.
Nothing is happening, but the threads live on!
Llama19
Registered User
I would have to disagree...as there is no We anymore...just Andrew Barroway...
Except if you want to consider the Batman/Robin duo of Andrew and Jake Barroway are now playing that role of the new ownership group...
Llama19
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