Phoenix CXXVIII: The Grass is Always Greener On The Other Side Of The I-17

Status
Not open for further replies.

cbcwpg

Registered User
May 18, 2010
20,270
20,948
Between the Pipes
LOL at all you guys saying they are moving for sure the last 10 years but the team is still here. How could you guys all be so wrong for so long? Maybe you should change your bets? After all that, another new owner, 500 mill franchise fee, more expansion coming, yes, the Coyotes are staying in AZ. No need to micro manage the process, where they play, new arena, debt, new coach, COG, etc...it will all work itself out, just watch:)

Not saying they are moving, just saying they could move, and I can come up with a lot of business ( this being a business forum and all ) reasons why. All you can come up with is "they haven't moved yet" and Vegas just got a team. Well, what happens in Vegas , stays in Vegas, and has zero bearing on what happens in Arizona.
 

Llama19

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
7,279
1,113
Outside GZ

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,928
29,212
Buzzing BoH
Arizona Columnist: Coyotes Could Be Disbanded After Next Season

To quote:

"Arizona reached the 2012 Western Conference Finals but has missed the playoffs in five straight seasons. It is unknown where – or if – the team will play after the 2017-18 season.

“They’re going to sell this team again or move,†McManaman [Arizona Republic columnist Bob McManaman said on CBS Sports Radio’s Ferrall on the Bench] said. “The thing is, I don’t know who wants them anymore. They got one year left and the this team could be disbanded if they don’t find some help quick. So I don’t think it matters who their coach is. Where are you going to play? Seattle doesn’t want them. Portland doesn’t want them. Kansas City and Indianapolis are good places, in my mind, where it could float. Quebec City isn’t ready to happen. I’m serious. This team could be abolished and just replaced simply by Vegas.â€Â"

Source: http://ferrall.radio.cbssports.com/...coyotes-could-be-disbanded-after-next-season/

I think McManaman said it all in three words..... "I don't know..... "

Should be noted McManaman does not cover the Coyotes except on a rare occasions for Sarah McLellan.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,928
29,212
Buzzing BoH
BTW.... Elliotte Friedman confirmed a little while ago about Nate Silver and Gary Bettman working towards a joint use facility.
 

Llama19

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
7,279
1,113
Outside GZ
I think McManaman said it all in three words..... "I don't know..... "

Should be noted McManaman does not cover the Coyotes except on a rare occasions for Sarah McLellan.

His exact quote is: The thing is, I don’t know who wants them anymore.

That much is certain...we do not know who wants them anymore...as with the heavily leveraged Barroway...is he becoming another Hulsizer in that he wants to own this franchise...as if it were art?

Barroway is a hedge fund guy...looking to hedge his bets for a payout...that payout seems to be selling this franchise for parts unknown...
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,928
29,212
Buzzing BoH
Seems more like conjecture than an actual certainty...

So..... you're trying to sell on us that a local reporter for the AZRepublic who may cover a Coyotes practice now and then and says "I don't know" carries more weight than a long time hockey writer who has connections within the NHL???

:biglaugh:
 

Major4Boarding

Unfamiliar Moderator
Jan 30, 2009
5,430
2,436
South of Heaven
Friedman's 30 thoughts from today

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-trade-value-first-round-pick/

Supports Shannon's comments from 2 weeks ago:

"Off the ice, this is a huge year for Arizona. Bettman and NBA Commissioner Adam Silver have taken the lead on a new arena from Barroway and Suns owner Robert Sarver, who is notoriously difficult. Can they get it done?"

I posted on here a long time ago this was the only way they were going to stay in AZ. Well, and that Sarver had to become owner.

Today's 30 Thoughts from Elliotte Friedman

17. On the Coyotes: It’s clear now NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman wanted one owner. So, the league backed Andrew Barroway and bought out the others. When there were reports John Chayka might interview in Buffalo, one source said, “My bet is he stays and Dave Tippett goes.†Reason? Big salary and Tippett didn’t see eye-to-eye with where they were going. I looked into it at the time and was told it wouldn’t happen because Arizona wouldn’t pay Tippett $4 million per season to sit on the sidelines. Obviously, I was clueless to what was bubbling underneath the surface. The NHL brokered a deal where Tippett left a significant amount of money on the table  around $10 million  to get out of a situation where no one was happy. A key: there is no “offset language,†so he gets his full settlement even if someone else hires him. Tippett told reporters, “It was time.†Yes, it was. You could see his frustration whenever you came across hi. It’s time for a fresh start  for everyone.
 

MNNumbers

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Nov 17, 2011
7,658
2,536
BTW.... Elliotte Friedman confirmed a little while ago about Nate Silver and Gary Bettman working towards a joint use facility.

Silver would have to ram that down Sarver's throat. I'm not saying it won't happen. I'm saying it's not an easy thing to do. Also, in the negative about that is that I have not yet seen anything about it coming from NBA sources. Only NHL. That's suspicious.

Further, you still have the following questions:
1- Who is paying?
2- What is the breakdown of all the revenues?
3- Remember that even with a 6.5M/yr AMF from Glendale free and clear, the Coyotes still lost lots of money. Even with a new arena, I am not sure that, as a Coyote owner, that I want in on that idea.
4- How long does it take to happen? One season to get it through a Legislature, plus 3 years in building? 4 more years of major losses in GRA. Hhmm, the only winner there is Glendale, because they get hockey in their arena without paying a subsidy.

But, it could happen. One needs to remember that NHL really does NOT want to move from CTZ/MTZ/PTZ to ETZ. And, that could be the trump card. Could well be. It could well be that they want Seattle as expansion so badly that they are willing to swallow lots of losses to stay in Arizona. It could be.

However, the structure of Barroway's loan tells me that he isn't going to be paying for it.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,928
29,212
Buzzing BoH
His exact quote is: The thing is, I don’t know who wants them anymore.

That much is certain...we do not know who wants them anymore...as with the heavily leveraged Barroway...is he becoming another Hulsizer in that he wants to own this franchise...as if it were art?

Barroway is a hedge fund guy...looking to hedge his bets for a payout...that payout seems to be selling this franchise for parts unknown...

So why is he trying to sell the contraction angle? Like the NHLPA is going to give up job openings they just got.

C'mon Llama.... you're reaching. McManaman has no clue and is making worse guesses than anyone in BOH.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,217
^^^^ Re: BK theory.

Not going to happen. The NHL will do whatever it takes to avoid that. For obvious reasons.
Yeah thats quite the theory laid out by mesa but no, no way. First of all thats something theyd want to avoid at all costs; secondly.... to set someone up like that?... I dont think so. The NHL is a lot of things but to maliciously & deliberately... no, no way. :laugh:
Arizona Columnist: Coyotes Could Be Disbanded After Next Season

To quote:

"Arizona reached the 2012 Western Conference Finals but has missed the playoffs in five straight seasons. It is unknown where – or if – the team will play after the 2017-18 season.

“They’re going to sell this team again or move,†McManaman [Arizona Republic columnist Bob McManaman said on CBS Sports Radio’s Ferrall on the Bench] said. “The thing is, I don’t know who wants them anymore. They got one year left and the this team could be disbanded if they don’t find some help quick. So I don’t think it matters who their coach is. Where are you going to play? Seattle doesn’t want them. Portland doesn’t want them. Kansas City and Indianapolis are good places, in my mind, where it could float. Quebec City isn’t ready to happen. I’m serious. This team could be abolished and just replaced simply by Vegas.â€Â"

Source: http://ferrall.radio.cbssports.com/...coyotes-could-be-disbanded-after-next-season/

Surely, you must be joking.
No, no I dont believe he is however.... completely forgets or ignores that the NHL has sunk costs in this franchise and the only way to retrieve them, get them back, be made whole again is monetize the franchise off-market, sell for Relocation.... Bettman promised the BOG's this adventure wouldnt cost them a dime. Contracting the franchise is not an option. Its not one they need to take, wont take. Theyd continue to park & fund indefinitely before they did that and if thats what happens? Fine. Just get rid of your Fake Owners with your Fake News & get real. I have zero problem with a league owned team. None. Nada.
His exact quote is: The thing is, I don’t know who wants them anymore.

That much is certain...we do not know who wants them anymore...as with the heavily leveraged Barroway...is he becoming another Hulsizer in that he wants to own this franchise...as if it were art?

Barroway is a hedge fund guy...looking to hedge his bets for a payout...that payout seems to be selling this franchise for parts unknown...

Clearly misinformed pursuant to Quebec... and yes, agreed.... this is a setup, sale for Relo, just not as diabolical as mesa's suggested. Disingenuous, deceitful, Machiavellian none the less.
 
Last edited:

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
Dec 10, 2002
54,940
14,676
PHX
But, it could happen. One needs to remember that NHL really does NOT want to move from CTZ/MTZ/PTZ to ETZ. And, that could be the trump card. Could well be. It could well be that they want Seattle as expansion so badly that they are willing to swallow lots of losses to stay in Arizona. It could be.

Holding the Coyotes tight means Karmanos gets top dollar for the Canes and Seattle has to pay up if they want a team. Glendale is more than happy to let them play as much as they want on the current deal. They haven't reached a hard fork in the road yet.

Although it's very telling that the league helped kick IA's ass to the curb. A necessary move if they hope to repair local relationships. As a bonus, the team is suddenly making all the right calls on the ice.
 

MNNumbers

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Nov 17, 2011
7,658
2,536
OK. Let's pursue the joint facility angle.....What would have to happen for that to come about....

Well, first, it has to be a new facility, because the current NBA arena doesn't work for hockey.

Then, you have to get the city to put up funds for it.

Then, you have the current lease with Sarver. He owns the Suns, and he is entitled to something like 5 more years of a wonderfully advantageous Management contract. So, for the new facility to come on board before that, you have to buy him out of his current lease. Who would pay for that?

Then, you have the question of: Who is going to pay for the arena? Is Phoenix city going to put up all the cash? I doubt that, but I could be wrong.

Then, you have the issues above about the teams splitting Naming Rights, and all the ancillary income.

Then, you have the fact that the hockey team will still be a money loser, because the only thing that has kept it from being that is a subsidy.

So, because this joint facility mostly benefits the NHL team, who in the NHL world is going to put up the cash to get it all done? And, then, who is going to continue to pay for all the losses?

Suppose you go for joint ownership. It seems to me that Sarver lacks deep enough pockets to own both, so a new ownership has to be brought in to buy BOTH teams. Presumably, they will also have to pay something on the arena. Why would this new ownership want the Coyotes when they are going to be a net money loser? (In other words, unless there is a HUGE change in ticket sales, and STHs, the hockey team will run more in the red than the owner can gain because the arena is full.)

It just brings more questions.....
 

MNNumbers

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Nov 17, 2011
7,658
2,536
Holding the Coyotes tight means Karmanos gets top dollar for the Canes and Seattle has to pay up if they want a team. Glendale is more than happy to let them play as much as they want on the current deal. They haven't reached a hard fork in the road yet.

Although it's very telling that the league helped kick IA's ass to the curb. A necessary move if they hope to repair local relationships. As a bonus, the team is suddenly making all the right calls on the ice.

Because I enjoy picking your brain, XX (not because I want to argue), just what do YOU think would be a hard fork in the road?

And, I totally agree about your Glendale comment. As anyone who reads my posts knows, I am most happy for the way Glendale has been operating in the last couple of years. And, the thing about the Coyotes situation that makes me the most angry and convinces me to NEVER trust anything that Bettman/Daly/BOG say or do is the way they coerced Glendale to pay them 50M cash, and then sign a 15M/yr AMF. If the taxpayers aren't paying the team's losses, I really don't care how it goes. And, yes, Glendale built the arena. It's for hockey. If NHL is playing there, under current terms, they are more than happy. And, perhaps, should be.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,217


Oh man, this offseason just keeps getting better! :handclap:


... :laugh: not a fan of Jimmy's there XX?.... Not promoted to HC so looks like a total sweep, whomever they hire given the authority to pick his assistants as he should.
 

Llama19

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
7,279
1,113
Outside GZ
He probably has an algorithm that could make it all work for both sides...

OK. Let's pursue the joint facility angle.....What would have to happen for that to come about....

Well, first, it has to be a new facility, because the current NBA arena doesn't work for hockey.

Then, you have to get the city to put up funds for it.

Then, you have the current lease with Sarver. He owns the Suns, and he is entitled to something like 5 more years of a wonderfully advantageous Management contract. So, for the new facility to come on board before that, you have to buy him out of his current lease. Who would pay for that?

Then, you have the question of: Who is going to pay for the arena? Is Phoenix city going to put up all the cash? I doubt that, but I could be wrong.

Then, you have the issues above about the teams splitting Naming Rights, and all the ancillary income.

Then, you have the fact that the hockey team will still be a money loser, because the only thing that has kept it from being that is a subsidy.

So, because this joint facility mostly benefits the NHL team, who in the NHL world is going to put up the cash to get it all done? And, then, who is going to continue to pay for all the losses?

Suppose you go for joint ownership. It seems to me that Sarver lacks deep enough pockets to own both, so a new ownership has to be brought in to buy BOTH teams. Presumably, they will also have to pay something on the arena. Why would this new ownership want the Coyotes when they are going to be a net money loser? (In other words, unless there is a HUGE change in ticket sales, and STHs, the hockey team will run more in the red than the owner can gain because the arena is full.)

It just brings more questions.....

All of this joint ownership is just trying find the solution to an endless knot...

th


The problem is...there seems to be no other option than to cut the knot...as there is no longer a local solution...
 

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
Dec 10, 2002
54,940
14,676
PHX
Because I enjoy picking your brain, XX (not because I want to argue), just what do YOU think would be a hard fork in the road?

All arena owners hostile to the Coyotes. Essentially no place to play. Hasn't happened yet. Happened in Atlanta.

... :laugh: not a fan of Jimmy's there XX?.... Not promoted to HC so looks like a total sweep, whomever they hire given the authority to pick his assistants as he should.

Look at the Coyotes PK stats over the years. He's terrible. While fans were 75/25 in favor of canning Tippett, everyone was 100% on board with getting rid of Playfair.

Of course David Pagnotta†is crying up a storm on twitter about Barroway ruining the team but this is nothing but fantastic. They haven't made a bad decision yet this offseason.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,928
29,212
Buzzing BoH
... :laugh: not a fan of Jimmy's there XX?.... Not promoted to HC so looks like a total sweep, whomever they hire given the authority to pick his assistants as he should.

The guys in F40 want to see a complete change.... out with the old coaches fraternity.... in with a new generation of younger minds that match the talent that Chayka is accumulating.
 

MNNumbers

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Nov 17, 2011
7,658
2,536
Because I enjoy picking your brain, XX (not because I want to argue), just what do YOU think would be a hard fork in the road?

All arena owners hostile to the Coyotes. Essentially no place to play. Hasn't happened yet. Happened in Atlanta.

Continuing, XX.......

Again, not arguing.

I totally agree that arena owners hostile to the team WOULD force a move. And, we are NOT likely to see that in the Phoenix Valley, since GRA is a great place, and Glendale is happy to have the team, especially on current terms.

I am again curious, what do make of the reports of the losses suffered by the team in the recent (let's say 8) years? In other words, since BK?
 

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
Dec 10, 2002
54,940
14,676
PHX
I am again curious, what do make of the reports of the losses suffered by the team in the recent (let's say 8) years? In other words, since BK?

What reports? "Coyotes lose buckets of money" is not a new thing. If the league wants to subsidize the team for various reasons, that's on them. They've got Barroway holding at least some of the bag right now.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,217
OK. Let's pursue the joint facility angle.....What would have to happen for that to come about....

Well, first, it has to be a new facility, because the current NBA arena doesn't work for hockey.

Then, you have to get the city to put up funds for it.

Then, you have the current lease with Sarver. He owns the Suns, and he is entitled to something like 5 more years of a wonderfully advantageous Management contract. So, for the new facility to come on board before that, you have to buy him out of his current lease. Who would pay for that?

Then, you have the question of: Who is going to pay for the arena? Is Phoenix city going to put up all the cash? I doubt that, but I could be wrong.

Then, you have the issues above about the teams splitting Naming Rights, and all the ancillary income.

Then, you have the fact that the hockey team will still be a money loser, because the only thing that has kept it from being that is a subsidy.

So, because this joint facility mostly benefits the NHL team, who in the NHL world is going to put up the cash to get it all done? And, then, who is going to continue to pay for all the losses?

A shared facility is absolutely a non-starter. Neither the Coyotes nor the Suns can afford to share, split revenues 50/50 and if they try it on, both teams will leave the State. Disaster waiting to happen. They each need their own facility. If that means a reno'd TSRA for Sarver or a new building, great. The Coyotes already have a building. So maybe Mr.Bettman rather than working with the NBA in attempting to coerce the State & whatever muni into supporting the disaster of a new shared facility he should be talking to his Buddies at AEG.... getting them to funnel all profits from concerts & events, every sou from parking to concessions etc, beyond a contingency fee, manage it for free in a side deal & then... rather than twisting the arms of Legislators & Politicians, twist the arms of his own Clubs in order to provide replacement benefits & value to AEG for doing so. The only blowback he'd get would be from Philly & SMG but they too can be dealt with.... But of course, he cant really do that now as he's burned his bridges, publicly gone nuclear on Glendale... This guy needs to go. Retire already. Messed up big time. He is an obstacle to any solutions. I dunno. Maybe get Daly in there but then he too has some credibility issues. Glendale insurance policy nonsense etc.
 
Last edited:

Mightygoose

Registered User
Nov 5, 2012
5,622
1,448
Ajax, ON
Another thought crossed my mind in regards to a joint arena with the Suns and it’s just a wild thought.

Maybe this attempt has nothing to do at all with trying to work out a deal with Sarver but it’s more about laying blame if the team has to leave. They can already blame Glendale, they can already blame ASU and they can already blame the state. Surely, Bettman doesn’t want to blame an NBA owner who is a business partner with many of the other owners. So how can they have anyone else to blame or justify leaving without the optics of exhausting all options?

Answer: City of Phoenix itself.

Keep in mind the day after Glendale voted to terminate the lease, Mayor Stanton spoke up proclaiming his support to get the Coyotes back downtown.

April of 2016, during a state of the city address, Stanton once again mentioned his desire for a new downtown arena for the Coyotes and the Suns. Not to mention during the last legislature session he spoke out against a new East Valley Arena saying it makes more sense to have a shared use building downtown.

The city authorized additional money to examine looking at renovating the arena to make it good for hockey. Though the revenue split will remain the issue, the optics of building something for the Coyotes remains.

Well, Mr. Stanton it’s time to put your money where your mouth is! Perhaps the meeting with both parties is to figure out the numbers on how a share facility can work for both teams….price tag then gets sent to Phoenix…weather it’s just construction costs…or…build in a ‘management fee’ for the Coyotes to ‘manage’ while the Suns gets the revenues the building will normally generate.

If the city somehow ponies up, then both teams have enough $$$ coming in to make it work. Otherwise, it doesn’t get support of council. No real pressure as the Coyotes don’t play in the city so nothing to lose.

If they say no, then who else has spoken up with a desire to keep the team and ‘can’t come through’?…Glendale: check, Sen. Worsley who represents the state: check. Mayor of Mesa…sort of…see Worsley…..Mayor Stanton….check-mate?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad