Phoenix CXVI: Soft Deadlines (or ~ As Soon As Practicable)

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Dirty Old Man

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You just proved my point in your first sentence: They want players who carry a larger cap hit than dollars they pay out. That's not building a team, it's being cheap.

:laugh:

Soooo....saving money is always being cheap, then? Not "clever money management"?

You've read TL's explanation, but answer this. You're playing a hypothetical game but using real money, where you're required to spend $50-$70. Someone hands you a coupon that counts for $20. You use the coupon, so for the purposes of the game you've spent $60, but you've really spent only $40. How on earth is that not rational? (in fact, you'd be pretty dumb if you *didn't* use that coupon)

"Yeah, but you're supposed to use the money for players who can, you know, win the Stanley Cup"

This, from the Business forum? So Datsyuk becomes the 50th best "player" under contract, which means he should be compared to the 50th best person on other teams' rosters, usually a has-been or never-will-be AHLer at, what, $600K? I swear, if it wasn't Arizona doing this, it would be seen as a shrewd business-savvy move. :shakehead
 

DyerMaker66*

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:laugh:

Soooo....saving money is always being cheap, then? Not "clever money management"?
You can't call it "saving money" when you're in the negative. It's mitigating losses at best. At worst it's being cheap.

You've read TL's explanation
Yeah, they had to be cheap so you could add another draft pick. :laugh:
, but answer this. You're playing a hypothetical game but using real money, where you're required to spend $50-$70. Someone hands you a coupon that counts for $20. You use the coupon, so for the purposes of the game you've spent $60, but you've really spent only $40. How on earth is that not rational? (in fact, you'd be pretty dumb if you *didn't* use that coupon)

Rational? You can ration it any way you like but your team's losing money because everyone has those coupons and people who don't aren't going.

"Yeah, but you're supposed to use the money for players who can, you know, win the Stanley Cup"

This, from the Business forum? So Datsyuk becomes the 50th best "player" under contract, which means he should be compared to the 50th best person on other teams' rosters, usually a has-been or never-will-be AHLer at, what, $600K? I swear, if it wasn't Arizona doing this, it would be seen as a shrewd business-savvy move. :shakehead
No idea where you're going with this. Matt Murray wasn't even the Penguins backup at the beginning of last season. Surely he's a better use of a roster spot than Datsyuk ( oh yeah, i forgot about all those savings the Coyotes apparently need- everything's fine, why do you ask?)

You're shocked that someone on the Business Forum expects a sports business to try to be competitive, rather than cheap.
 
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The Feckless Puck

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I'd rather the team be cheap than congenitally stupid with their money.

The long and short of it is that the Coyotes are playing it smart with the cap vs. real expenditures, and almost everything else is just the same old harping from people who despise the team and where they play.

Buying out Vermette is not just a cost savings, anyway. He never should have been resigned in the first place. It was another of Don Maloney's "get the band back together" deals. I was never a fan of bringing Vermette (or Michalek for that matter) back to the team because at some point you have to move on and look ahead. The brutal calculus of the game is that if you're going to get 38 points from a player, it might as well be a kid with a future rather than an aging veteran with terrible analytics.

It seems apropos that the Rio Olympics are starting soon because it seems like we keep competing in the Long Jump to Conclusions around here. It'd be nice to get back to discussions rather than beating the same old dead horses.
 

Whileee

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Oy.... how things get twisted around here.... :shakehead

If people would take a look at the current roster first before letting their tin hats take over, they would discover the Coyotes suddenly have a log jam at the center position with at least two of the three top center prospects looking to make the roster this year.

Vermette did not have a very productive year last year until the trade deadline when Alex Tanguay was brought in and since he wasn't resigned, it put Vermette's future in doubt. The Coyotes were looking to trade Vermette up until today. Probably hoping to fill a top six right wing position that they sorely need right now.

Of course, you're all welcome to drop by Forum 40 to discuss this HOCKEY move. :sarcasm:

Buying a player out is a financial move, just like deferring salary and absorbing dead contracts like Springer's. Centers play wing all the time.

Fact of the matter is that the Coyotes are making a lot of moves that look very much like they are minimizing salary, particularly in the next year or two.
 

DyerMaker66*

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I'd rather the team be cheap than congenitally stupid with their money.

The 2 aren't mutually exclusive.
The long and short of it is that the Coyotes are playing it smart with the cap vs. real expenditures, and almost everything else is just the same old harping from people who despise the team and where they play.
There shouldn't be a real need to be "smart" about cap vs. Real expenditures. Your cap should essentially be your real expenditures but we know the Coyotes can't really afford that
Buying out Vermette is not just a cost savings, anyway.
Yeah, he's Tie Domi and they're better by subtraction. :laugh:
He never should have been resigned in the first place. It was another of Don Maloney's "get the band back together" deals. I was never a fan of bringing Vermette (or Michalek for that matter) back to the team because at some point you have to move on and look ahead.
So Vermette is worse than an empty roster spot?
The brutal calculus of the game is that if you're going to get 38 points from a player, it might as well be a kid with a future rather than an aging veteran with terrible analytics.
Call me when either of them puts up 38 points.

It seems apropos that the Rio Olympics are starting soon because it seems like we keep competing in the Long Jump to Conclusions around here.

Yeah, like 2 prospects are better than Vermette. As is throwing away cap and salary.
It'd be nice to get back to discussions rather than beating the same old dead horses.
It'd be nice if you could recognize a spade for a spade, but apparently the Coyotes are more competitive with Pronger doing nothing than using that money on actual players.
 

Boris Zubov

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:laugh:

Soooo....saving money is always being cheap, then? Not "clever money management"?

You've read TL's explanation, but answer this. You're playing a hypothetical game but using real money, where you're required to spend $50-$70. Someone hands you a coupon that counts for $20. You use the coupon, so for the purposes of the game you've spent $60, but you've really spent only $40. How on earth is that not rational? (in fact, you'd be pretty dumb if you *didn't* use that coupon)

"Yeah, but you're supposed to use the money for players who can, you know, win the Stanley Cup"

This, from the Business forum? So Datsyuk becomes the 50th best "player" under contract, which means he should be compared to the 50th best person on other teams' rosters, usually a has-been or never-will-be AHLer at, what, $600K? I swear, if it wasn't Arizona doing this, it would be seen as a shrewd business-savvy move. :shakehead

BOH or not, you really think that a STH should be satisfied that the Coyotes are being frugal by clipping coupons instead of investing actual dollars on players? That's nonsense. This is prime example of why this market struggles to maintain a serious fan base.

Can't speak for the others but it makes no difference to me where they call home as long as taxpayer dollars aren't in play. However, the optics of this are not good when taken in the context of this ownership's past financial history. This team operates frugally because they have to. This move wasn't solely based on some master player personnel strategy to introduce young talent.
 

XX

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BOH or not, you really think that a STH should be satisfied that the Coyotes are being frugal by clipping coupons instead of investing actual dollars on players? That's nonsense. This is prime example of why this market struggles to maintain a serious fan base.

I think you should stop telling Coyotes fans what we want. I'll pay to see young talent with a future. I won't pay to see a cobbled together mess of veterans that doesn't have a future or any effort most nights. This is a positive move for the roster and a necessary one.

Your post is a prime example of [some posters]valuing narrative over actual hockey value.

This move wasn't solely based on some master player personnel strategy to introduce young talent.

Zero evidence that it's anything other than that. Vermette agreed to it, by the way.
 
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Boris Zubov

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I don't see where I'm telling anyone what they want or need in that post or any of my previous ones. Nor am I advocating throwing around FA dollars on washed up vets looking to cash in on one last payday. My comment was based solely on the Yotes taking on dead money to clear the cap floor. To me that sends a bad message to any fan base, regardless of the market they happen to be in.

We can certainly agree to disagree regarding the motivation behind the move, but I completely agree that the yotes should accelerate the youth movement. With that said, the team doesn't have a ton of time to be patient. They need to make the playoffs this season & start drawing bigger crowds ASAP.
 

XX

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I don't see where I'm telling anyone what they want or need in that post or any of my previous ones. Nor am I advocating throwing around FA dollars on washed up vets looking to cash in on one last payday. My comment was based solely on the Yotes taking on dead money to clear the cap floor. To me that sends a bad message to any fan base, regardless of the market they happen to be in.

You're telling STH how they should feel without actually knowing what the situation of the team is. Spending gobs of money isn't correlated with winning. Certainly not in AZ, if you want to ask D'Backs fans. Not across the street where the Cardinals have built a perennial contender with incredible drafting and savvy cheap signings.

Making stupid moves sends a bad message. Chayka hasn't made a bad move yet. Murphy contract? Awesome. Stone? Shrewd. Goligoski? Bold to trade for his rights. Grabbing Chychrun for cap space? Great. Most important - not throwing stupid money at players that don't improve the roster, while letting pretty much every whipping boy the Coyotes had walk? Effin brilliant.

Coyotes fans are pleased as punch right now. We've got a stacked system that we get to watch grow next year with players like Strome, Dvorak, Domi, Duclair, and some others like DeAngelo, Perlini, Fischer etc...

This is the best it has been to be a Coyote fan in some time. If the arena issue was solved, we'd be on cloud 9 and pretty obnoxiously happy.

Less projecting your own feelings and more reading of the actual hockey moves going on.

With that said, the team doesn't have a ton of time to be patient. They need to make the playoffs this season & start drawing bigger crowds ASAP.

This year's team is a surefire bet to be better than lasts, and it's also cheaper. There is no way to make young players on their ELCs more expensive. Every team uses their initial savings to their advantage. The Coyotes just happen to have so many hitting at the same time that they need dead money to hit the floor. There's nothing wrong with that.
 

DyerMaker66*

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You're telling STH how they should feel without actually knowing what the situation of the team is
They're losing on and off the ice and being cheap while doing so. I know what their situation is, you think there's some kind of higher purpose except saving money.
. Spending gobs of money isn't correlated with winning.
It's more correlated with winning than paying someone to play for another team is. It's too bad other non-welfare teams can't see how smart the Coyotes management is!

Certainly not in AZ, if you want to ask D'Backs fans. Not across the street where the Cardinals have built a perennial contender with incredible drafting and savvy cheap


The Cardinals were terribad for decades. Apparently missing the playoffs 4 out of the last 6 times and not getting by the first week 5/6 times is a "perennial contender"?

The Diamonbacks are 20 games below .500 and haven't made the playoffs in half a decade, so ya got any more lies to spread about these "perennial contenders"?
 
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yotesreign

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They're losing on and off the ice and being cheap while doing so. I know what their situation is, you think there's some kind of higher purpose except saving money.

It's more correlated with winning than paying someone to play for another team is. It's too bad other non-welfare teams can't see how smart the Coyotes management is!




The Cardinals were terribad for decades. Apparently missing the playoffs 4 out of the last 6 times and not getting by the first week 5/6 times is a "perennial contender"?

The Diamonbacks are 20 games below .500 and haven't made the playoffs in half a decade, so ya got any more lies to spread about these "perennial contenders"?

cards & dbacks are 2 different teams. are u saying the cards have lost the first game 5 of the last six years and missed the playoffs 4 of the last 6 years? I did not know that (more of a hockey fan than football) or did you mean saint Louis cards?
 

DyerMaker66*

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cards & dbacks are 2 different teams. are u saying the cards have lost the first game 5 of the last six years and missed the playoffs 4 of the last 6 years? I did not know that (more of a hockey fan than football) or did you mean saint Louis cards?
I am fullly aware they're 2 different teams: I just posted their different records in two distinctive paragraphs.

They didn't make the playoffs 4 times and they lost in the first round once, ergo they have not gotten by the first week 5/6 times.

Either way, neither of them are perennial contenders
 

TheLegend

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I don't see where I'm telling anyone what they want or need in thnat post or any of my previous ones. Nor am I advocating throwing around FA dollars on washed up vets looking to cash in on one last payday. My comment was based solely on the Yotes taking on dead money to clear the cap floor. To me that sends a bad message to any fan base, regardless of the market they happen to be in.

We can certainly agree to disagree regarding the motivation behind the move, but I completely agree that the yotes should accelerate the youth movement. With that said, the team doesn't have a ton of time to be patient. They need to make the playoffs this season & start drawing bigger crowds ASAP.

And your comment is wrong as the Coyotes easily made the floor last year without needing Pronger's contract to do it. Just as they will make the floor this year without needing Pronger OR Datzyuk.

Coyotes fans were well aware as to why those contracts were taken on. Can almost be safe to say most of them have a better grasp of how it all works than the average hockey fan.

Now with that said.... come next year both of those contracts will be off the books.... gone.... never to be seen again. So then if the Coyotes go out and take on more dead money you might begin to have an argument.

Buying a player out is a financial move, just like deferring salary and absorbing dead contracts like Springer's. Centers play wing all the time.

Fact of the matter is that the Coyotes are making a lot of moves that look very much like they are minimizing salary, particularly in the next year or two.

SOME centers can play wing. Vermette has never played wing, unless there was the exception when they needed two centermen on ice at the same time for defensive faceoffs.

And the Coyotes simply look like they're cheap because that's what you want to project them as being. Just like virtually every other team in the NHL... they set a budget at the beginning of the year as to what they wanted to spend for the entire season on salary. What would matter from a BoH point of view is what that total amount is. HOW they choose to spend it matters absolutely none.
 

TheLegend

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You can't call it "saving money" when you're in the negative. It's mitigating losses at best. At worst it's being cheap.


Yeah, they had to be cheap so you could add another draft pick. :laugh:


Rational? You can ration it any way you like but your team's losing money because everyone has those coupons and people who don't aren't going.


No idea where you're going with this. Matt Murray wasn't even the Penguins backup at the beginning of last season. Surely he's a better use of a roster spot than Datsyuk ( oh yeah, i forgot about all those savings the Coyotes apparently need- everything's fine, why do you ask?)

You're shocked that someone on the Business Forum expects a sports business to try to be competitive, rather than cheap.


Still waiting for the answer to my question above, Dyer.

Do you think the Coyotes should have waited for Chychrun to drop four more spots when it was known Detroit was going to take him, or pay the price of taking on Datzyuk's contract to get the guy they wanted and originally had slotted at #7???
 

DyerMaker66*

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And the Coyotes simply look like they're cheap because that's what you want project them as being. Just like virtually every other team in the NHL... they set a budget at the beginning of the year as to wtaking hat they wanted to spend for the entire season on salary. What would matter from a BoH point of view is what that total amount is. HOW they choose to spend it matters absolutely none.

No, they look cheap by taking on players they'll never use and getting credit for money they aren't spending.

That is absolutely the worst mind set I have ever heard and exactly what keeps the Leafs tires spinning: It doesn't matter that they spent 4 million dollars on Jeff Finger, it matters that they spent 4 million dollars!

How they choose spend it is the only thing that matters.

Still waiting for the answer to my question above, Dyer.

Do you think the Coyotes should have waited for Chychrun to drop four more spots when it was known Detroit was going to take him, or pay the price of taking on Datzyuk's contract to get the guy they wanted and originally had slotted at #7???

I think they should've taken another player or made a better trade. See how easy that was?

An even easier answer to this question is they take him with the pick they already had or stick with taking a different player. But nah, the money-pit that is the Coyotes would never do that, they're committed to winning ( by losing).
 

Fugu

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Zero evidence that it's anything other than that. Vermette agreed to it, by the way.

My take is that they're saving a small amount of money, not some huge contract that forces them into cap issues. As such, it looks petty. You would never see the big teams make that type of move, so it is somewhat odd.

What did Vermette say?



No, they look cheap by taking on players they'll never use and getting credit for money they aren't spending.

That is absolutely the worst mind set I have ever heard and exactly what keeps the Leafs tires spinning: It doesn't matter that they spent 4 million dollars on Jeff Finger, it matters that they spent 4 million dollars!

How they choose spend it is the only thing that matters.

I think it made sense to take Datsyuk's contract to move up. There was no other way to do it.

Also....made a better trade? With whom and what do they give up?
 

DyerMaker66*

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I think it made sense to take Datsyuk's contract to move up. There was no other way to do it.
Trade with any team above Detroit/ other way to do it.

Also....made a better trade? With whom and what do they give up?

Anyone and Anything? What kind of question is that? You want a specific answer for a vague hypothetical question?

With Edmonton for their first pick! :sarcasm:
 

Fugu

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Trade with any team above Detroit/ other way to do it.


Anyone and Anything? What kind of question is that? You want a specific answer for a vague hypothetical question?

With Edmonton for their first pick! :sarcasm:

You're the one playing fantasy hockey. You think they didn't approach anyone else or know who those teams wanted? It's dead cap space, and a trade of draft positions. No, you know the answers but are stirring things up again.
 

DyerMaker66*

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I think they were cheap and wanted to get credit for spending more than they are, as I've stated repeatedly.

I know what it is, I've been deservedly ripping on them for the dead cap space.

God, i love this place: The Coyotes traded for dead cap space but you're just stirring things up again. :sarcasm:
 

The Feckless Puck

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There shouldn't be a real need to be "smart" about cap vs. Real expenditures. Your cap should essentially be your real expenditures but we know the Coyotes can't really afford that

So you're basically saying that every NHL franchise should be cash-flush enough to essentially let its owners wipe their butts with Benjamins rather than get the maximum impact for the minimum expenditure? In what kind of Bizarro-world of business practices do you believe the NHL exists?

So Vermette is worse than an empty roster spot?

No such thing as an "empty roster spot." His place will be filled by someone, either through promotion from the prospect pool or by trade or UFA signing. The bottom line is that Vermette's value for the Coyotes was at a low point - not just because of his low point total, but because of how his style of play had degraded to the point where he was more of a liability than an asset on the ice. You'd have to have watched him play to understand this, of course, but the love affair HF seems to have with Vermette is with the version of him from several years ago, not the current iteration.

Call me when either of them puts up 38 points.

Well, Domi and Duclair didn't do too badly eclipsing Vermette last season, so I'm pretty optimistic that a young player with better wheels, reflexes, and (apparently) hockey sense could at least match the value in points and exceed it in on-ice utility.

It'd be nice if you could recognize a spade for a spade, but apparently the Coyotes are more competitive with Pronger doing nothing than using that money on actual players.

What players? If the Coyotes threw money at a warm body like the Islanders did at Casey Cizikas, you'd just be on here tearing them down for poor judgment and a terrible contract. If you want me to call a spade a spade, then I will - there is nothing the Coyotes can do that will prompt you to give them any credit at all.

BOH or not, you really think that a STH should be satisfied that the Coyotes are being frugal by clipping coupons instead of investing actual dollars on players? That's nonsense. This is prime example of why this market struggles to maintain a serious fan base.

Speaking as a (now former) STH, I have no issue with them being frugal. Given the caliber of UFA players available to throw money at, I'd rather them save it and use it on guys in our system. Don Maloney might have thought it was wonderful to throw millions at guys like Kyle Chipchura and Brad Richardson to get above the cap floor, but I don't. That's stupid spending. If Pronger and Datsyuk help us to ice young kids who can play but whose max entry level contracts leave us short in actual dollars spent, then mas alla! I'd rather ice a team with potential than with plugs.

This move wasn't solely based on some master player personnel strategy to introduce young talent.

You don't know that any more than I do. And the only people for whom the optics are bad, at least right now, are for the team's critics and folks who are making assumptions about their finances. Most of the Coyotes fans I know have felt that Vermette was dead weight even when Maloney resigned him, and it seems that while some are sad to see him go from a sentimental point of view, it makes a lot of sense from a hockey standpoint.

My comment was based solely on the Yotes taking on dead money to clear the cap floor. To me that sends a bad message to any fan base, regardless of the market they happen to be in.

Well, the problem with this whole "barely clearing the cap floor" is that with Pronger and Datsyuk's cap hits, the Coyotes now have less space to the cap CEILING than they do to the cap FLOOR.

And if you think it's a bad message to send in THIS market, may I introduce you to Tony La Russa and Dave Stewart of the Arizona Diamondbacks? The guys who dropped a staggeringly huge contract on unproven Cuban prospect Yasmany Tomas (and gave up their rights in the international free agent market to do so), dropped an even larger one on Zack Grienke, traded a can't-miss blue-chip prospect and their best outfielder to Atlanta to get Shelby Miller, who has been a train wreck of almost stupendous proportions, and basically given away their past who-knows-how-many first-round picks? Or maybe I can introduce you to the Suns and their history of player acquisitions and trades over the past few years.

This market is HUNGRY for a team that makes decisions that are smart. Buying out Vermette, based on his play over the past two or three seasons, was smart. If any other team in the league had done it, nobody would be batting an eyelash. But because it's the COYOTES, it's some sort of apocalyptic nightmare scenario or a shell game. :shakehead
 
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The Feckless Puck

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Trade with any team above Detroit/ other way to do it.

You forget that the Coyotes also offloaded Joe Vitale's contract to Detroit - a contract that nobody else seemed to want to take (for good reason - it was a stupid contract for a fourth-liner with long-term injury issues, with two years left on it to boot) - in that deal.

Oh, I'm sorry, that's just the Coyotes being cheap again rather than smart asset management. My mistake. :sarcasm:
 

DyerMaker66*

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You forget that the Coyotes also offloaded Joe Vitale's contract to Detroit - a contract that nobody else seemed to want to take (for good reason - it was a stupid contract for a fourth-liner with long-term injury issues, with two years left on it to boot) - in that deal.

Oh, I'm sorry, that's just the Coyotes being cheap again rather than smart asset management. My mistake. :sarcasm:

For a team nowhere near contending or the cap they sure are offloading a lot of salary while keeping cap hits.

Joe Vitale at any number today is vastly superior to Pronger and Datsyuk at any number and not playing for you. And yes, I have seen him play: He played for my team.
 

The Feckless Puck

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Joe Vitale at any number today is vastly superior to Pronger and Datsyuk at any number and not playing for you. And yes, I have seen him play: He played for my team.

Joe Vitale is as close to playing in the NHL again as Chris Pronger is, but his contract lasts a year longer than Pronger's does. So why don't you get on Detroit's case for taking a dead cap hit that exceeds the life of both Pronger's and Datsyuk's?
 

TheLegend

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I think they should've taken another player or made a better trade. See how easy that was?

An even easier answer to this question is they take him with the pick they already had or stick with taking a different player. But nah, the money-pit that is the Coyotes would never do that, they're committed to winning ( by losing).

I think you know what the answer really was and are now trying to evade admitting you are wrong.

It was explained to you that they were going to select Chychrun at #7 until Clayton Keller fell into their lap. Obviously they did not expect Keller to be there and had no other forward prospect on their radar. It happens.

So they spent the next 9 picks trying to move up, hoping that they could find another trade partner to take their #20 and whatever else they'd want. It ended up being Detroit.

The Coyotes weren't the only other team to trade up in that draft to get a particular player. All teams do it. What's your excuse for them??

I think I already know what that answer will be.
 
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