Phoenix CXVI: Soft Deadlines (or ~ As Soon As Practicable)

[Major4Boarding]

Previous thread - Phoenix CXV: NHL Fantasy Ownership & GM Cruise

Notes:

* Announcement (Arena Update) on or before June 24th
* AHL Affiliate named the Roadrunners (Tucson)

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[TheLegend]

Or....as a subtitle..... "The Revolving Two Weeks Syndrome"

 

[Voight]

Should have just stayed with the Suns instead of creating this debacle.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Should have just stayed with the Suns instead of creating this debacle.

The majority of posters on these megathreads always give the Coyotes crap for not turning a profit - well, the main reason why back when they were in Phoenix was because of the Suns taking their revenue streams and charging them ungodly amounts of rent.

A situation which will recur if they settle on being the Suns' tenants downtown.

 

[Fugu]

You guys always give the Coyotes crap for not turning a profit - well, the main reason why back when they were in Phoenix was because of the Suns taking their revenue streams and charging them ungodly amounts of rent.

A situation which will recur if they settle on being the Suns' tenants downtown.

You guys? Shawked is not "you guys" but speaks for himself.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

You guys? Shawked is not "you guys" but speaks for himself.

I clarified it for you.

 

[Fugu]

I clarified it for you.

Weak.

 

[JetSabre]

Boris Zubov's suggested thread title, "Looney Tunes in the Desert; Roadrunners, Coyotes & the funding of ACME Arena," was way more interesting.

But regardless, I'll continue to read these megathreads, just like I have since May 2009.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Weak.

I am weak - if I had any strength of personality I'd avoid these megathreads like the plague.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Boris Zubov's suggested thread title, "Looney Tunes in the Desert; Roadrunners, Coyotes & the funding of ACME Arena," was way more interesting.

But regardless, I'll continue to read these megathreads, just like I have since May 2009.

FYI - Although very creative, BZ's Thread Title suggestion encroached upon a previously used thread title Le Retour des Nordiques Partie XVII: Loonie Tune$ which is why it was not used. Your continued participation is appreciated

 

[Hutz]

I wouldn't normally ask but I'm a little out of the loop and since it's the first page of a new thread it seems like a good time to ask. Can somebody sum up the situation from the past few months. Where exactly are we today?

 

[OthmarAmmann]

I wouldn't normally ask but I'm a little out of the loop and since it's the first page of a new thread it seems like a good time to ask. Can somebody sum up the situation from the past few months. Where exactly are we today?

About two weeks away from a major arena announcement, according to Tony the Tiger.

 

[JimAnchower]

The majority of posters on these megathreads always give the Coyotes crap for not turning a profit - well, the main reason why back when they were in Phoenix was because of the Suns taking their revenue streams and charging them ungodly amounts of rent.

A situation which will recur if they settle on being the Suns' tenants downtown.

To be fair, there's also more than a few Coyote fans who think moving back downtown with the Suns will cure all as well. At least that's the impression I get when reading the comments section in the various arena articles.

 

[MNNumbers]

I wouldn't normally ask but I'm a little out of the loop and since it's the first page of a new thread it seems like a good time to ask. Can somebody sum up the situation from the past few months. Where exactly are we today?

Quickly,

Last summer: Glendale found a legal way to cancel the prior lease. If you remember, they were paying 15M/yr and getting some ancillary monies back from IA. It seems to have turned out that IA were not easy to work with. The legal reason had to do with IA hiring two prior employees of Glendale who had worked on the contract for the Arena Management.

Late last summer: An amendment to the prior AM contract was signed. It left the parties with this situation... For 2015-16, IA would manage the arena for a flat 6.5M, with no ancillary monies flowing back to Glendale. For 16-17, the same, EXCEPT that Glendale had the right to change arena managers. If they did do, the Coyotes were obligated yet to play at GRA in 16-17, and simply pay 500K rent.

More recently, like at the end of April: Glendale has signed with AEG to manage their arena, beginning (I think) on Aug 1 of this year. That leaves IA paying to play at GRA, a situation which would seem to multiply their losses.

Since Glendale voted on the AEG contract: Anthony LeBlanc has gone more public with his ideas about a new arena somewhere in the Valley. He has given himself a date at which to announce something more than once, and each time he really has nothing to announce. The latest such date is June 24. Meanwhile, the possible partners, with the exception of the mayor of Phoenix, all seem silent on the matter. The mayor of Phoenix is talking a great game about how it would be super to have a new arena that would house both the Suns and Yotes, but nothing of substance seems to be happening at city hall, perhaps because the Suns have a very favorable lease in the current building, and no need for a new arena for at least 5 years.

Last two weeks: Silence on the part of everyone.

 

[JimAnchower]

The mayor of Phoenix is talking a great game about how it would be super to have a new arena that would house both the Suns and Yotes, but nothing of substance seems to be happening at city hall, perhaps because the Suns have a very favorable lease in the current building, and no need for a new arena for at least 5 years.

For purely devil's advocate purposes, I'm been trying to think of reasons the Suns might be receptive to a going in on a new arena now. It would really happen with the following two statements being true. One, they know Salt River (and everyone else) isn't interested in a building a new arena for them in the future. Two, since Mayor Stanton is term limited, the Suns are concerned that the next mayor of Phoenix may not be as friendly to building a new arena as Stanton. Given that the Suns president said they were going to slow play this a couple weeks ago, it seems they are pretty confident at least one of those two statements aren't true. They probably already know Salt River's level of interest. And while cynical, many politicians are going to want to get their name in the paper and agree to building sports venues for local teams, so Stanton isn't unique.

 

[berklon]

About two weeks away from a major arena announcement, according to Tony the Tiger.

I love hearing/seeing new arena/stadium announcements. I always like seeing the new designs and how they fit in with the area.

Las Vegas' new arena looks really nice... I wonder how this new one will compare to it.

 

[XX]

I love hearing/seeing new arena/stadium announcements. I always like seeing the new designs and how they fit in with the area.

Las Vegas' new arena looks really nice... I wonder how this new one will compare to it.

They haven't even entered into the conceptual stage. If there's an announcement, it will we "we've chosen X as our partners and hope to have something to announce later in the season'. Cue nothing, team moves at the end of the year.

 

[Killion]

They haven't even entered into the conceptual stage. If there's an announcement, it will we "we've chosen X as our partners and hope to have something to announce later in the season'. Cue nothing, team moves at the end of the year.

That's the path their on, yes, way it seems set to wind down. Suns playing a long game, "slow". Their not in any hurry. Coyotes fans &
other interested parties fed a thin gruel of vague announcements with the odd "update" at critical times throughout the coming season.

 

[cbcwpg]

They haven't even entered into the conceptual stage. If there's an announcement, it will we "we've chosen X as our partners and hope to have something to announce later in the season'. Cue nothing, team moves at the end of the year.

Unless you consider pointing at a pile of dirt as conceptually having a plan...

 

[kihekah19*]

That's the path their on, yes, way it seems set to wind down. Suns playing a long game, "slow". Their not in any hurry. Coyotes fans &
other interested parties fed a thin gruel of vague announcements with the odd "update" at critical times throughout the coming season.

I'm curious as to when you think these "critical times" will be?

 

[YoungGuns]

So Vegas seems likely be awarded an expansion franchise in the coming weeks (based on the rumours). I am not suggesting the Coyotes are on the move, but if they were ever to be relocated, where would they go now that Vegas seems to be scratched off the list? Quebec doesn't seem like an option since the commish is on record saying Detroit nor Columbus will be moved back West. It is also rumoured that Quebec isn't going to be awarded an expansion partly because the league does not want to add to the imbalance. Obviously moving the Coyotes East would be a greater imbalance (17 East and 14 West). Seattle? Not sure, still no arena..

 

[MNNumbers]

So Vegas seems likely be awarded an expansion franchise in the coming weeks (based on the rumours). I am not suggesting the Coyotes are on the move, but if they were ever to be relocated, where would they go now that Vegas seems to be scratched off the list? Quebec doesn't seem like an option since the commish is on record saying Detroit nor Columbus will be moved back West. It is also rumoured that Quebec isn't going to be awarded an expansion partly because the league does not want to add to the imbalance. Obviously moving the Coyotes East would be a greater imbalance (17 East and 14 West). Seattle? Not sure, still no arena..

This post touches on the heart of the mystery.

What we think we know (here at hf boards):
1- Due to the bankruptcy, we think we know the franchise loses $$ every year.
2- The sale out of bankruptcy seemed to confirm that, as the only bidder besides the league itself was for the express intention of relocating
3- The league itself purchased the franchise, and then politely asked Glendale to fund it for 25M for two years, if Glendale didn't want an empty arena. Such cash would not be necessary if the team were making money.
4- When the league finally sold the team, it was to a group which had to borrow a large sum from a lender-of-last-resort. Said lender required 15M a year from the AMF to go directly to their accounts. This again suggests the team operation is a money loser.
5- The current owners have a good portion of a loan from the league, and another through the leagues line-of-credit. Further lending credence to the idea that the team is losing money.
6- There is no favorable lease available for the team and its organization for the 16-17 season, nor does it appear that there is one available for at least 2 years after that (assuming a new arena takes about 2.5 years to be ready to play in). And, that is the very best situation. This suggests that the team is really going to lose money in the next few years if they remain in the Valley.
7- That seems to suggest a relocation, especially if no new arena appears.

Now, the expansion part:
1- It seems that only Vegas is currently available as a new market in the western 3 time zones of the US.
2- It seems the league is about to announce an expansion to Vegas.
3- That seems to suggest no relocation is planned.

Obviously, something does not compute here.



I keep thinking that Bettman said there would be leaks. He normally denies everything. It could be that the leaks do not suggest the actual information. ????

 

[Killion]

I'm curious as to when you think these "critical times" will be?

Right now through the summer is one of them; Sponsorships & ST Renewals, October puck drop.... the period leading into the Christmas & New Years break when one would hope for a bump in walk-ups.... depending on where their sitting in their Division, late February on through March/April & the 1st Round.... So... unless a decision has absolutely been made that this teams moving next year (out of State - LV) the best hope I can see in terms of retaining the team lies with GRA, AEG & the COG. Thinking outside of the box, new (or unusual) business model... there could be something worked out there. Hard to say but its possible. I would rate that possibility a lot higher than the possibility of this group being able to come up with the wherewithal to not only absorb ongoing losses while paying down their debts & finding the money for a new building let alone finding an institutional or governmental partner for such a venture. The markets already over-saturated with facilities; I dont see a deal with Sarver; dont see a deal with ASU nor with the Tribe. IA has not only that obstacle, they also lack any kind of financial depth, and, even more damning, serious reputational problems.

 

[TheLegend]

"Back up the trucks......"

"This dog is dead...... "

"Never should have put a team in the desert...."

Yada..... yada..... yada.....

Sorry to come across as being condescending folks but we're just beating the same old dead horse. Until there is some sort of announcement either way about a new arena, or the Coyotes somehow manage to make nice with Glendale for a while this thread has become an eight track tape stuck on one channel.

 

[YoungGuns]

This post touches on the heart of the mystery.

What we think we know (here at hf boards):
1- Due to the bankruptcy, we think we know the franchise loses $$ every year.
2- The sale out of bankruptcy seemed to confirm that, as the only bidder besides the league itself was for the express intention of relocating
3- The league itself purchased the franchise, and then politely asked Glendale to fund it for 25M for two years, if Glendale didn't want an empty arena. Such cash would not be necessary if the team were making money.
4- When the league finally sold the team, it was to a group which had to borrow a large sum from a lender-of-last-resort. Said lender required 15M a year from the AMF to go directly to their accounts. This again suggests the team operation is a money loser.
5- The current owners have a good portion of a loan from the league, and another through the leagues line-of-credit. Further lending credence to the idea that the team is losing money.
6- There is no favorable lease available for the team and its organization for the 16-17 season, nor does it appear that there is one available for at least 2 years after that (assuming a new arena takes about 2.5 years to be ready to play in). And, that is the very best situation. This suggests that the team is really going to lose money in the next few years if they remain in the Valley.
7- That seems to suggest a relocation, especially if no new arena appears.

Now, the expansion part:
1- It seems that only Vegas is currently available as a new market in the western 3 time zones of the US.
2- It seems the league is about to announce an expansion to Vegas.
3- That seems to suggest no relocation is planned.

Obviously, something does not compute here.



I keep thinking that Bettman said there would be leaks. He normally denies everything. It could be that the leaks do not suggest the actual information. ????

Or I guess there is one possibility if relocation does take place. If they Coyotes needed to move after Vegas gets expansion, and Seattle has no arena, they COULD move to Quebec and play out of the Central? It leaves space in the Pacific division for a future Seattle team should they ever get an arena sorted out. If Carolina really is in trouble down the road, they could perhaps relocate to Seattle and the league eventually balances itself out? Is it wrong to think that if there is trouble among franchises, it is both Carolina and Arizona and they will need to be sorted out come seasons end next year? Would again make sense as to why Quebec is denied this year.