This screams for an Adam Savage "I reject your reality and substitute my own" meme
Phoenix CXIII: Astrobucks, Omnishambles, and Other Catchy Words
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This screams for an Adam Savage "I reject your reality and substitute my own" meme
Llama19
Registered User
At this point, though, if they are seriously intending to move the team. Why not come clean and tell the fans that they are relocating? If there is only 1 game left, I would want to know so I could have a chance to say good bye to the players on my team. The tickets for that last game have already been sold, I think an announcement of relocation this late in the game will not hurt the attendance.
kihekah19*
Registered User
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
There's probably a chance of the arena with the tribe working out at this point. You don't make any move until that's dead.
I think they've got weeks, not months to make the decision though. Potentially losing the relocation landing spot through expansion has got to be a major part of the timing. Draw it out until the last minute trying to keep them in Phoenix, if it doesn't work and the expansion/relocation decision has to be made, it's made. The extra year at GRA doesn't matter at all as far as I can tell.
So essentially, they're not moving. Until they have no choice.
There will be no relocation, thus nothing to "come clean" about.
Who will cover their losses though? The team is a money pit. The NHL business model is not working in Arizona.
JimAnchower
Registered User
- Dec 8, 2012
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I was wondering how Salt River bid for the D-Backs/Rockies spring training facility to see how engaged with the media they were. They were one of couple bidders, with Casa Grande, Phoenix, and Mesa also bidding. The tribe did announce they were bidding to host both teams a few weeks before the deadline, so they weren't completely quiet about it. So it's possible we hear some details come out before a formal announcement, if one comes.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/03/06/20090306dbacksrfp06-ON.html
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/03/06/20090306dbacksrfp06-ON.html
Llama19
Registered User
To quote from the article:
"A training facility could include a stadium for 13,000, 12 practice fields and clubhouses on up to 140 acres, according to [Diamondbacks President Derrick] Hall."
Actual stats:
"Salt River Fields at Talking Stick includes an 11,000-seat capacity ballpark, a total of 12 practice fields and office buildings that include Major and Minor League clubhouses, training facilities, and offices for each team."
Source: http://arizona.diamondbacks.mlb.com/ari/spring_training/saltriver.jsp?loc=ballpark
And yet...there they remain...makes one wonder if one is sufficiently well informed, or perhaps misinformed, no?
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
Many of the spring training sites have outfield lawns that may not figure into the seating capacity. I'm not familiar with TS fields but if they have an outfield lawn getting another 2000 people in isn't that difficult.
Whatever this means in regards to the Coyotes is beyond me, but it is what it is.
Particularly when there's no single "NHL business model."
Just noticed that "Omnishambles" was used as a theme in thread LXV.
Guess that means we've finally created the world's largest circular argument.
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
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Just noticed that "Omnishambles" was used as a theme in thread LXV.
Guess that means we've finally created the world's largest circular argument.
You can thank the NHL for that TL.
You would think with ALL the business models you suggest the NHL has, that in 20 years+ they could have found one that works for Arizona??
You know instead of running over and over the " you build us and arena and subsidize us with multi-millions of $ " one
Govment Cheese
Groooovy
- Jul 8, 2010
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Coyotes first team in the league to play an all stadium series home game format on synthetic ice. Think of the cost savings not having to make ice in the desert. Super progressed thinking!Many of the spring training sites have outfield lawns that may not figure into the seating capacity. I'm not familiar with TS fields but if they have an outfield lawn getting another 2000 people in isn't that difficult.
Whatever this means in regards to the Coyotes is beyond me, but it is what it is.
A day late for April fools but WTH.
Yep, everything is going great for IA. Any well informed person can see LeBlanc is totally in the drivers seat on this...
BattleBorn said:
For me, that's what keeps this saga so interesting. There's a range of plausible scenarios and it's quite fun to speculate on which might actually be happening. The only verifiable facts are: the AMF $15MM was security for a loan; the team has a lease through 16-17 at GRA; IA wants people to believe they have options for a new arena in the Phx metro area. Anything beyond that is puzzle pieces and "reasonable" conclusions.
Is IA still in control of the team or did the NHL exercise a proxy? (I imagine Zimmerman and the league tightened up their proxies after they got blasted by Moyes in BK)
What contractual rights does IA have to try to cure their loss of the AMF?
Is the NHL even amicable with IA at this point? Is Team Tony just following league instruction with these press releases as part of their effort to reduce their liability for torching the AMF?
Who knows? But in a seemingly rare moment of honesty, probably only due to the shock of what had just happened, Nick Woods said this after the lease cancellation vote: "At this point, the damage has been done. How do we negotiate our way out of being shot in the head by the city." He wasn't exaggerating - pulling the AMF and setting off a chain of defaults on the loan instruments was likely the end of IA. Trying to deduce what has happened since then is a wonderful game. We're getting closer to finding out what's next. Personally, I hope it's an arena on the reservation (with in-game wagering and a gentlmens club); but I have a strong sense that the endgame is not going to include any new arena in Arizona.
Timelines are getting squeezed too tight for comfort. Seems the only vestige of hope is the Tribal arena option, and that option has as much uncertainty as Tony`s next words. The tribal option also contains an outcome that likely resembles the present operating inadequacies of GRA. The theory that if you build it they will come is still only a theory without any real data to suggest attendance will rise. If I am the tribe, I don`t like that uncertainty for the amount of money they will need to cough up.
Like fairview, I have yet to see a legitimate argument made that would substantiate the concept of hockey and IA being successful in the desert? Local media viewership is abysmal, does that not present some evidence that the local fan base is just not large enough to support a full arena every night?
What happened to the business model that suggests, in order to be financially successful in this league you have to control all of your revenue sources? A tribal partnership would likely have none of the control that would be necessary for IA to turn a profit.
look around the league at the ownership of every team, most are controlled by one family or one individual and in each case that entity has extremely deep pockets to weather annual pockets of weakness. In the case of IA, I see modestly deep pockets for some, no pockets for others in their ownership group. Their ability to fund deficits relies solely on the benevolence of the league. I ask, how long would the league continue to subsidize a set of poor owners (both administratively and financially) in a new building and without full control of revenue streams?
If the NHL is holding out hope that this market will someday yield results, I believe that experiment is over, it simply did not work and the smart money knew to stand clear. Enter dumb money and dumber people and what do you have? A mess that GB will need to take care of in the next six weeks, how many miles up the road do the moving vans need to travel?
Like fairview, I have yet to see a legitimate argument made that would substantiate the concept of hockey and IA being successful in the desert? Local media viewership is abysmal, does that not present some evidence that the local fan base is just not large enough to support a full arena every night?
What happened to the business model that suggests, in order to be financially successful in this league you have to control all of your revenue sources? A tribal partnership would likely have none of the control that would be necessary for IA to turn a profit.
look around the league at the ownership of every team, most are controlled by one family or one individual and in each case that entity has extremely deep pockets to weather annual pockets of weakness. In the case of IA, I see modestly deep pockets for some, no pockets for others in their ownership group. Their ability to fund deficits relies solely on the benevolence of the league. I ask, how long would the league continue to subsidize a set of poor owners (both administratively and financially) in a new building and without full control of revenue streams?
If the NHL is holding out hope that this market will someday yield results, I believe that experiment is over, it simply did not work and the smart money knew to stand clear. Enter dumb money and dumber people and what do you have? A mess that GB will need to take care of in the next six weeks, how many miles up the road do the moving vans need to travel?
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
According to Bettman the league seems open to it.
CF might be able to give you more specifics, but in a nutshell any legal matters would have to go through the federal court system. Unless they decide it's something that has to be resolved in tribal court.
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
You would think with ALL the business models you suggest the NHL has, that in 20 years+ they could have found one that works for Arizona??
You know instead of running over and over the " you build us and arena and subsidize us with multi-millions of $ " one
You're thinking in too small terms.
Steve Ellman's "business model" was use the NHL franchise as a basis for a mega development. With the emphasis on the development instead of the franchise. Jerry Moyes pretty much followed along for the ride at first until he was so deep into it that the franchise became a cash cow for his other ventures.
IA is actually the first ownership group who's emphasis is to growing the sport and brand within the state. But they took over a franchise that was pretty much gutted and fileted.
Mock them as much as you want, but when compared to what was running the franchise for the first 18 years in AZ you can't say they haven't tried.
cbcwpg
Registered User
I'm just left wondering , and probably way off base here, but if they are going to use tribal land to build an arena, why not just buy the team as well? This way you own everything and never have to worry about any potential disputes between the team and the tribe in the future.
That would be the best possible solution for the team. IMO. And likely the only one that would guarantee that the team would remain in Arizona. They need an owner with VERY deep pockets.
You would think with ALL the business models you suggest the NHL has, that in 20 years+ they could have found one that works for Arizona??
You know instead of running over and over the " you build us and arena and subsidize us with multi-millions of $ " one
Yes, because in 240 months surely they could have tried 240 different business models, because as every business owner knows it's a good idea to constantly change your business model.
Totally up to NHL and their risk tolerance in the transaction
First blush here : http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=110666663&postcount=361
And those same well informed people are aware that the team is *obviously* relocating for the 2016-17 season. I mean, like, duh, come *on*.
TheLegend
Hardly Deactivated
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