Phoenix CXIII: Astrobucks, Omnishambles, and Other Catchy Words

[TheLegend]

When Bettman, et al., came to Glendale to maneuver around the Open Meeting Law, it was front page news with pictures (see attachment)...

It seems highly unlikely that if these LeBluster(tm) meetings took place, there would have not been the same type of coverage...

Was just listening to Craig Morgan's interview and it is quite possible Bettman met with representatives from Phoenix and ASU. In the case of Phoenix if it was city staffers rather than the mayor or other elected official then open meeting laws wouldn't be an issue. Nor would it be something that would be on a public schedule. In ASUs case I wouldn't know how that works, I'd be willing to accept CF's interpretation of it.

That said.... it would not surprise me at all if this is handled in a way to avoid OML. Plenty of experience in that already.

 

[TheLegend]

Im going to "assume" he was in Arizona and did meet with officials of one kind or another if even the Secretary to a State Senator, Assistant City Manager or what have you but just sort of "along for the ride". Informal. Discussion entirely conceptual. Very early days. I simply cannot imagine this is all made up, pure fiction. The NHL can stoop lower than a snakes belly at times but this, no, cant see them completely fabricating such a story however, I can see how these meet & greets were likely setup & attended by Bettman so he could get some kind of a measure on just how "real" the possibilities might or might not be, what kind of timeline. So ya, I would say your last sentence there, agree with that Jim.

I read it as Bettman wanted an update on where everything stands. There are decisions that have to made very soon at the league level (expansion, etc.). If IA is going to get this to happen (at all) they had a very short amount of time to pick a direction they want to go.

 

[Killion]

I read it as Bettman wanted an update on where everything stands. There are decisions that have to made very soon at the league level (expansion, etc.). If IA is going to get this to happen (at all) they had a very short amount of time to pick a direction they want to go.

Ya. Agreed. Bettman most likely meeting with unelected officials, possibly IA's Lobbyists, trying to get a bead on the situation. Take the temperature so to speak. Along for the ride. Didnt say much, just listened. But no mistake, he will be (if not already done so) making a decision & fast. I know its been predicted almost every single Spring since 2009, "teams a goner, moving" but this year, with the whole issue of Expansion & that being strung out, Vegas with an NHL ready building, the artificial price of $500M & Foleys check all but cashed.... see what Im sayin here TL? Soft landing, neighboring state. Gary looks like a Hero as he's kept his promise that this adventure in Arizona wouldnt cost any of them a nickle while simultaneously artificially spiking franchise values right across the board. And thats all those guys really care about. Franchise values.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

BTW, Newell Brown has been an assistant for a reason, his personality is not the type you would want for a head coach.

Ironic that you'd say that, considering that Shane Doan a couple of weeks ago said that Brown was the best coach he'd ever played for.

I simply cannot imagine this is all made up, pure fiction. The NHL can stoop lower than a snakes belly at times but this, no, cant see them completely fabricating such a story...

...and yet the most prevalent and, according to some, plausible theory extant about Las Vegas and expansion is that the Coyotes are relocating there in June and that the NHL has fabricated the greatest and most silent cover-up since the Manhattan Project to keep people from discovering that the franchise is moving.

Making up a Gary Bettman visit is small potatoes in comparison to that effort.

 

[BattleBorn]

...and yet the most prevalent and, according to some, plausible theory extant about Las Vegas and expansion is that the Coyotes are relocating there in June and that the NHL has fabricated the greatest and most silent cover-up since the Manhattan Project to keep people from discovering that the franchise is moving.

Making up a Gary Bettman visit is small potatoes in comparison to that effort.

It hasn't exactly been silent. The stories that have come out have been quickly denied and dismissed, though.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

It hasn't exactly been silent. The stories that have come out have been quickly denied and dismissed, though.

The only story I know of is the single example from the New York Post last June. Have there been other stories? Has there been any comment from Foley?

 

[BattleBorn]

Wouldn't expect a comment from Foley.

You're right though, of the five articles I had favorited they all refer to the Post article. Still, not exactly silent.

I also can't believe that story was almost a year ago.

 

[cbcwpg]

Ya. Agreed. Bettman most likely meeting with unelected officials, possibly IA's Lobbyists, trying to get a bead on the situation. Take the temperature so to speak. Along for the ride. Didnt say much, just listened. But no mistake, he will be (if not already done so) making a decision & fast. I know its been predicted almost every single Spring since 2009, "teams a goner, moving" but this year, with the whole issue of Expansion & that being strung out, Vegas with an NHL ready building, the artificial price of $500M & Foleys check all but cashed.... see what Im sayin here TL? Soft landing, neighboring state. Gary looks like a Hero as he's kept his promise that this adventure in Arizona wouldnt cost any of them a nickle while simultaneously artificially spiking franchise values right across the board. And thats all those guys really care about. Franchise values.

And that's the key... Bettman more or less promised that the NHL would not lose money on the purchase / resale of the Coyotes. So either the NHL has re-cooped the cost they spent keeping the team out of Basillie's paws by getting money from all the owners that have been carted thru town since the BK... or they have not re-cooped their costs yet.

So, if they NHL has not re-cooped their costs, what would be the easiest way to do so? Well, you said it K.... first drive up the value of franchises ( for expansion or relocation ) to the level they are at now, and then sell the team and let them move. The $500MM that Vegas is willing to pay would cover the sunk costs on the Coyotes fairly well I would think.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Wouldn't expect a comment from Foley.

You're right though, of the five articles I had favorited they all refer to the Post article. Still, not exactly silent.

I also can't believe that story was almost a year ago.

Maybe I should rephrase from "Foley quote" - I think if relocation was imminent then there would be SOME sort of leakage in the LV press. I don't count the Post story as leakage of any sort because of their highly-suspect sourcing and the fact that they were predicting Barroway flipping the team last year. But if a hockey team were coming to Vegas for next season there would have to be something more substantive in the air, IMO.

So, if they NHL has not re-cooped their costs, what would be the easiest way to do so? Well, you said it K.... first drive up the value of franchises ( for expansion or relocation ) to the level they are at now, and then sell the team and let them move. The $500MM that Vegas is willing to pay would cover the sunk costs on the Coyotes fairly well I would think.

Either all of you guys are going to be dead wrong in June or I'm not going to be around to care, so this whole relocation scenario is a win-win for me.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Was just listening to Craig Morgan's interview and it is quite possible Bettman met with representatives from Phoenix and ASU. In the case of Phoenix if it was city staffers rather than the mayor or other elected official then open meeting laws wouldn't be an issue. Nor would it be something that would be on a public schedule. In ASUs case I wouldn't know how that works, I'd be willing to accept CF's interpretation of it.

That said.... it would not surprise me at all if this is handled in a way to avoid OML. Plenty of experience in that already.

I read it as Bettman wanted an update on where everything stands. There are decisions that have to made very soon at the league level (expansion, etc.). If IA is going to get this to happen (at all) they had a very short amount of time to pick a direction they want to go.

and if that's the case, it sure would suggest he has little faith in what LeBlanc has been reporting to him.

i mean, why else would he want to meet with any of these people himself just to get an update?

 

[BattleBorn]

Maybe I should rephrase from "Foley quote" - I think if relocation was imminent then there would be SOME sort of leakage in the LV press. I don't count the Post story as leakage of any sort because of their highly-suspect sourcing and the fact that they were predicting Barroway flipping the team last year. But if a hockey team were coming to Vegas for next season there would have to be something more substantive in the air, IMO.

I completely agree that there should be more leaking if something was going on.

On the other hand, you really don't want to leave anyone opened up to some sort of tortious interference case IA may have if anything is leaked or announced while they're "working on" the new arena deal.

There could very easily be damages due if (for example) something leaked out of the league that IA could say destroyed their chance to get a new arena deal in Tempe or wherever. I could easily see this whole thing being cover for a lame duck season as well as the arena negotiations giving a way for tortious influence damages to be collected by IA.

I could be way off in left field conspiracy land though.

I've just followed college conference relocation very closely over the past five years or so and found that everything is extremely quiet until agreements are already in place, and this seems a lot like that.

ETA: and perhaps it the midwestern values in me, but I always feel like I should apologize when I'm talking about this stuff with you.

 

[Llama19]

and if that's the case, it sure would suggest he has little faith in what LeBlanc has been reporting to him.

i mean, why else would he want to meet with any of these people himself just to get an update?

When Bettman was there, just three short years ago, before the Glendale City Council, he had complete faith in LeBluster's(tm) plan...

I am sure nothing has changed over that time...

I completely agree that there should be more leaking if something was going on.

On the other hand, you really don't want to leave anyone opened up to some sort of tortious interference case IA may have if anything is leaked or announced while they're "working on" the new arena deal.

There could very easily be damages due if (for example) something leaked out of the league that IA could say destroyed their chance to get a new arena deal in Tempe or wherever. I could easily see this whole thing being cover for a lame duck season as well as the arena negotiations giving a way for tortious influence damages to be collected by IA.

I could be way off in left field conspiracy land though.

I've just followed college conference relocation very closely over the past five years or so and found that everything is extremely quiet until agreements are already in place, and this seems a lot like that.

Careful there, you are starting to tread into CasualFan's territory...

 

[Llama19]

Another angle on the arena?

Friedman talks Coyotes, Auston Matthews possibilities

To quote:

"Friedman points to Matthews’ value in Arizona as one of the main selling points in acquiring the Scottsdale, Ariz., native.

“I think you could make that argument that he is more valuable there than anywhere else,†said Friedman. “Don’t forget also, they’re trying to get a new arena built out there, whether it’s at Arizona State, whether it’s part of the native lands on the casino, whether it’s downtown Phoenix, they’re trying to get something done. They have to stabilize their future."

Source: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/friedman-talks-coyotes-auston-matthews-possibilities/

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I completely agree that there should be more leaking if something was going on.

On the other hand, you really don't want to leave anyone opened up to some sort of tortious interference case IA may have if anything is leaked or announced while they're "working on" the new arena deal.

Well, couldn't some sort of plausible legal case against the league/IA be built if IA has spent the past few months categorically denying any departure out of state in public and allegedly holding public meetings with various city officials, and then they abruptly move in June?

ETA: and perhaps it the midwestern values in me, but I always feel like I should apologize when I'm talking about this stuff with you.

I do appreciate it - I'm an original Midwesterner myself so I try to politely engage in these discussions while furiously clamping down on my internal rage until someday in the next few years I'll drop dead of a stress-induced heart attack.

 

[BattleBorn]

Well, couldn't some sort of plausible legal case against the league/IA be built if IA has spent the past few months categorically denying any departure out of state in public and alleging public meetings with various city officials, and then they abruptly move in June?

Where are the damages? They had every intention of staying if they could get an arena deal that would work, it just "didn't work out."

Someone has to be damaged to have a case, working on a deal that didn't come to fruition probably isn't enough.

 

[Killion]

And that's the key... Bettman more or less promised that the NHL would not lose money on the purchase / resale of the Coyotes. So either the NHL has re-cooped the cost they spent keeping the team out of Basillie's paws by getting money from all the owners that have been carted thru town since the BK... or they have not re-cooped their costs yet.

So, if they NHL has not re-cooped their costs, what would be the easiest way to do so? Well, you said it K.... first drive up the value of franchises ( for expansion or relocation ) to the level they are at now, and then sell the team and let them move. The $500MM that Vegas is willing to pay would cover the sunk costs on the Coyotes fairly well I would think.

Oh ya. Its diabolical. And after clearing off their creditors, probably a couple of hundred million to split amongst the other 29 teams. No, its not the full $500M free & clear but if any member of the BOG's complains about that? Total Smackdown. Jacobs or Bettman... Look Buddy, we just increased your franchise value by over 100%! Thats a Hell of a lot more than the few million more you'd have gotten from the Expansion Fee. So just zip it. Your new here. Speak when your spoken to.

I completely agree that there should be more leaking if something was going on.

On the other hand, you really don't want to leave anyone opened up to some sort of tortious interference case IA may have if anything is leaked or announced while they're "working on" the new arena deal.

There could very easily be damages due if (for example) something leaked out of the league that IA could say destroyed their chance to get a new arena deal in Tempe or wherever. I could easily see this whole thing being cover for a lame duck season as well as the arena negotiations giving a way for tortious influence damages to be collected by IA.

I could be way off in left field conspiracy land though.

I've just followed college conference relocation very closely over the past five years or so and found that everything is extremely quiet until agreements are already in place, and this seems a lot like that.

ETA: and perhaps it the midwestern values in me, but I always feel like I should apologize when I'm talking about this stuff with you.

Careful there, you are starting to tread into CasualFan's territory...

.... and mine.... I love to invoke that one as well... ya, they should sue.. pffshaw....why, thats a clear-cut case of tortious interference Sir... Scoundrel!... huzzah... cough cough.... hack....spit....... Steward? Another Brandy Alexander if you please... make it a double.... cigar... Cuban.... tortious lying inter....

Well, couldn't some sort of plausible legal case against the league/IA be built if IA has spent the past few months categorically denying any departure out of state in public and allegedly holding public meetings with various city officials, and then they abruptly move in June?

Good luck with that.

 

[Fairview]

Im going to "assume" he was in Arizona and did meet with officials of one kind or another if even the Secretary to a State Senator, Assistant City Manager or what have you but just sort of "along for the ride". Informal. Discussion entirely conceptual. Very early days. I simply cannot imagine this is all made up, pure fiction. The NHL can stoop lower than a snakes belly at times but this, no, cant see them completely fabricating such a story however, I can see how these meet & greets were likely setup & attended by Bettman so he could get some kind of a measure on just how "real" the possibilities might or might not be, what kind of timeline. So ya, I would say your last sentence there, agree with that Jim.

And yet if it is entirely conceptual, how can they claim that all will be resolved in May? They haven't even selected a victim yet. They have been spinning their wheels since the fall. They are now confident that someone...anyone... will step up and build it? At this rate, they might as well build it in Fantasyland in Disney World.

 

[TheLegend]

and if that's the case, it sure would suggest he has little faith in what LeBlanc has been reporting to him.

i mean, why else would he want to meet with any of these people himself just to get an update?

Well for one if they are considering different sites they'd better pick one soon. That was something Morgan indirectly suggests in his interview.

.... and mine.... I love to invoke that one as well... ya, they should sue.. pffshaw....why, thats a clear-cut case of tortious interference Sir... Scoundrel!... huzzah... cough cough.... hack....spit....... Steward? Another Brandy Alexander if you please... make it a double.... cigar... Cuban.... tortious lying inter....

(

Wait.... are you invoking monitorous interference here??

 

[Killion]

And yet if it is entirely conceptual, how can they claim that all will be resolved in May? They haven't even selected a victim yet. They have been spinning their wheels since the fall. They are now confident that someone...anyone... will step up and build it? At this rate, they might as well build it in Fantasyland in Disney World.

Right... and its precisely that (and more) that feeds the Conspiracy Theories. That its all just PR strategy in dressing up their Exit. They "need to be seen" that their fighting the good fight, pulling out all the stops. Whether or not that theory is nothing more than just a figment of some of our collective imaginations remains to be seen yes?.. Regardless... certainly a fascinating situation.

 

[mesamonster]

Not enough figment to support all of the conspiracy theories! The stench is beginning to get pretty strong! Not even a Bettman appearance is going to go very far in extinguishing the smoke that is starting to rise from this burgeoning conflagration.

 

[CasualFan]

...and yet the most prevalent and, according to some, plausible theory extant about Las Vegas and expansion is that the Coyotes are relocating there in June and that the NHL has fabricated the greatest and most silent cover-up since the Manhattan Project to keep people from discovering that the franchise is moving. Making up a Gary Bettman visit is small potatoes in comparison to that effort.

I still believe the most probable outcome is relocation to LV for 16-17 season. I do not believe there is any elaborate cover-up. I think there is some basic damage control public relations.

I'm basing my probability assessment on the sequence of events. It would take a while to list them all but in summary:

- Glendale announces they are going to vote to cancel the lease in early June 2015
- IA spends the remainder of month doing the whole school girl media tour thing desperately trying to pressure Glendale. They are unable to do so.
- On 6/29 the judge rejects the bulk of IAs motion and increases bond to $1MM while warning that Glendale may have suffered damages as a result of IAs actions
- On 6/30 NY Post reports the team is being transferred to Foley.

The pieces align perfectly.

On the other hand, aside from the tribe option - the "new arena" story has no discernable public process, no approvals, no legislature in session, no ASU master plan, no votes, no nothing. Yet it's all going to be tied up with a neat bow in 6 weeks. Meanwhile, the expansion timeline has been pushed back repeatedly.

 

[Llama19]

I still believe the most probable outcome is relocation to LV for 16-17 season. I do not believe there is any elaborate cover-up. I think there is some basic damage control public relations.

I'm basing my probability assessment on the sequence of events. It would take a while to list them all but in summary:

- Glendale announces they are going to vote to cancel the lease in early June 2015
- IA spends the remainder of month doing the whole school girl media tour thing desperately trying to pressure Glendale. They are unable to do so.
- On 6/29 the judge rejects the bulk of IAs motion and increases bond to $1MM while warning that Glendale may have suffered damages as a result of IAs actions
- On 6/30 NY Post reports the team is being transferred to Foley.

The pieces align perfectly.

On the other hand, aside from the tribe option - the "new arena" story has no discernable public process, no approvals, no legislature in session, no ASU master plan, no votes, no nothing. Yet it's all going to be tied up with a neat bow in 6 weeks. Meanwhile, the expansion timeline has been pushed back repeatedly.

Quite plausible, and probably likely...

When the pieces fit, the puzzle is complete...

 

[The Feckless Puck]

- On 6/30 NY Post reports the team is being transferred to Foley.

I've written before why the Post story is such a weak foundation upon which to base a relocation narrative.

If anyone - literally anyone - else with some sort of legit journalistic credentials reported something similar, I'd be more swayed.

 

[Llama19]

Craigette, pushing the narrative...

6 questions to ponder as Coyotes pursue an arena

To quote:

"Is a deal imminent? Which site is in the lead? Will the Coyotes partner with the Suns and/or ASU? Are municipalities involved? How much will it cost and who’s footing the bill?

All of that information will come out in the wash, assuming the Coyotes do secure a new arena in another part of the Valley. Here are six other questions to ponder as Coyotes Nation waits patiently for an arena announcement that CEO and president Anthony LeBlanc said Saturday should come in the next six weeks."

Source: http://www.todaysslapshot.com/nhl-w...estions-to-ponder-as-coyotes-pursue-an-arena/

 

[CasualFan]

I've written before why the Post story is such a weak foundation upon which to base a relocation narrative.

If anyone - literally anyone - else with some sort of legit journalistic credentials reported something similar, I'd be more swayed.

I think that's fair criticism. I'm not really saying that the Post story in and of itself is some smoking gun. It's not. But its probably not coincidence that it occurred immediately after the court date that solidified Glendale's legal position. Who knows what type of cure period IA would have on a loan default when that AMF $15 vanished? Regardless, I don't think it's much of a conspiracy to suggest that the NHL earnestly began contingency planning when the lease got nuked. Some of these new arena stories have looked pretty farcical. The NHL exercising some proxy control granted via their various loan instruments and then flipping the franchise to Foley looks fairly realistic in comparison. YMMV.