Player Discussion Phillip Danault II: 2nd C? edition

[NotProkofievian]

Dismantling a productive line (and simultaneously your primary matchup line) for the benefit of one individual, however talented, is such a bizzare idea that I can't even begin to explain. It's absolutely contrary to how the coaches think the game, which they do in terms of lines and units. What do you expect to achieve with such a move? Gallagher and Tatar start producing more than they currently are? The third line based around Danault and Lehkonen will be more productive? We will somehow shut down the best opponents better? The only results that I see is a possible slight increase in Kotkaniemi's production at the expense of completely screwing up the balance that we currently have throughout the forward lines. It's such a fantasy-league move that it's downright funny.

Oh, what a load of silliness. Is there something preventing Claude Julien from remembering this current lineup arrangement? If it's so balanced now, it can be made balanced again by putting the lines back together. This is no reason to not experiment if it makes sense to. And indeed, it does make sense. I've seen enough of Danault in an offensive role: it doesn't work. He's got zero - 0 - offensive talent. Kotkaniemi at least has some. If it works it works. If it doesn't Julien can put the lines back to what they are now. After the whole thing, we'll have more information. Oh no, anything but that!

 

[BaseballCoach]

I'm sorry but Danault is not good offensively. His assist tonight was based on a **** up. He fumbles an easy pass for a grade a chance and gally does all the work for a tatar goal. Kotkaniemi should be on that line. I honestly think he'd be near ppg if he was given gally and tatar and first wave pp.

You greatly undervalue Danault.

There are only 65 forwards with more ES points than Danault, that's 2.1 per team. That makes him clearly worthy of a top-6 role at ES, low first line actually. And this is not new, his ES production the past two years were also easily within the top-6 forwards of most teams.

Before this statistic is dismissed as suspect, take a look at some of the players who are top scorers (0.8ppg or more) but have less or the same ES points as Danault:
Evgeni Kuznetsov
Brad Marchand
Nicklas Backstrom
Steven Stamkos
Matthew Barzal
Taylor Hall
David Krejci
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
Elias Lindholm
Mikko Koivu
Chris Kreider
Mike Hoffman
Cam Atkinson
Mika Zibanejad
Kyle Connor
Jonathan Marchessault

You have to admit that is impressive. I did not pick guys in bad years, I only counted forwards who are first-line level in overall points, 0.8 ppg or more, and compared their ES points to Danault's.

Now I am NOT saying that Danault is the unknown superstar who should be put on the PP and he will be one of the top scorers in the league. No, what I am saying is that the way he is being used, with top-6 minutes at ES (and also on PK) is totally appropriate. It is not for nothing that his line gets 60% of the grade A scoring chances when he is on the ice and 66% of the shots. It's because his skill at puck pursuit and retrieval as well as his ability to break up opposing players' offence and re-launch a counter-attack is excellent. These things tilt the ice at 5-on-5.

 

[CheldishGamibno]

Danault's line plays against opponents top lines. People here really think we need to give that pressure to Kotka? I don't agree.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Dismantling a productive line (and simultaneously your primary matchup line) for the benefit of one individual, however talented, is such a bizzare idea that I can't even begin to explain. It's absolutely contrary to how the coaches think the game, which they do in terms of lines and units. What do you expect to achieve with such a move? Gallagher and Tatar start producing more than they currently are? The third line based around Danault and Lehkonen will be more productive? We will somehow shut down the best opponents better? The only results that I see is a possible slight increase in Kotkaniemi's production at the expense of completely screwing up the balance that we currently have throughout the forward lines. It's such a fantasy-league move that it's downright funny.

You know the Habs have a hard time winning half their game right now right ?
You also know Habs have not won two in a row in a month right ?

 

[ECWHSWI]

Danault's line plays against opponents top lines. People here really think we need to give that pressure to Kotka? I don't agree.

and he can keep doing that with different wingers...

 

[DAChampion]

Danault is playing very well this year.

Regardless, I hope that Kotkaniemi's ice time can be bumped up from its current 13 minutes a game.

 

[NotProkofievian]

What is the purpose of such experiment? I see the downside, but nobody explained the expected result. We are one of the best 5 on 5 scoring teams in the league. Surely, you expect an improvement after such move?

Well, here's what's happened Archi: the downside has been dismissed as catastrophizing nonsense. The downside of ''ruining the balance'' of the team is completely artificial. Claude could change the lines back after a single shift if he would like. There is no downside, at least not one that makes any sense.

As for the upside, my question for you is what do you do when the music stops for Danault's line? And it will. While everyone else was predicting Danault's 50+ point season last year, I used the number of goose eggs he put up to predict almost exactly what he would produce. I suppose if you can believe the claims made by your article - that not only will Tomas Tatar produce a career high by 13 points, but that this may be an underestimate - you could be persuaded of anything, but being realistic, things are going to slow down. Now, invariably your response will be ''well fine, let's wait until that happens.'' There's an old saying ''first the kid drowns, then you cover the well.'' It doesn't sound like wise policy, does it?

My suggestion is this: Danault can keep his regular shift in tied or leading scenarios. In situations where we need a goal, we play Kotkaniemi. Why would this be? I suppose it would be for the same reason Claude Julien doesn't play Danault on the powerplay, but he plays Kotkaniemi. Danault has no offensive talent. Jesperi does.

 

[The Great Weal]

You greatly undervalue Danault.

There are only 65 forwards with more ES points than Danault, that's 2.1 per team. That makes him clearly worthy of a top-6 role at ES, low first line actually. And this is not new, his ES production the past two years were also easily within the top-6 forwards of most teams.

Before this statistic is dismissed as suspect, take a look at some of the players who are top scorers (0.8ppg or more) but have less or the same ES points as Danault:
Evgeni Kuznetsov
Brad Marchand
Nicklas Backstrom
Steven Stamkos
Matthew Barzal
Taylor Hall
David Krejci
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
Elias Lindholm
Mikko Koivu
Chris Kreider
Mike Hoffman
Cam Atkinson
Mika Zibanejad
Kyle Connor
Jonathan Marchessault

You have to admit that is impressive. I did not pick guys in bad years, I only counted forwards who are first-line level in overall points, 0.8 ppg or more, and compared their ES points to Danault's.

Now I am NOT saying that Danault is the unknown superstar who should be put on the PP and he will be one of the top scorers in the league. No, what I am saying is that the way he is being used, with top-6 minutes at ES (and also on PK) is totally appropriate. It is not for nothing that his line gets 60% of the grade A scoring chances when he is on the ice and 66% of the shots. It's because his skill at puck pursuit and retrieval as well as his ability to break up opposing players' offence and re-launch a counter-attack is excellent. These things tilt the ice at 5-on-5.

I dont really think I'm undervaluing Danault. He is a 3rd line center and nothing more. His ES numbers are nice but playing with the teams best wingers definitely helps. Last night was a perfect example. He killed every single chance offensively when he touched the puck. Kotkaniemi should be on that line imo.

 

[Tyson]

Danault's line plays against opponents top lines. People here really think we need to give that pressure to Kotka? I don't agree.

Danault eats a lot of important minutes and does a great job at it. Kotkaniemi needs more PP time for now. Top 6 minutes come.

 

[The Great Weal]

If Danault is not playing with Gally/Tatar, it doesnt mean hes not facing the tough assignments.

Yup. Agostino-Danault-Lehkonen seems more like a shutdown line to me. Then you plug in Byron and Armia when they come back.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I dont really think I'm undervaluing Danault. He is a 3rd line center and nothing more. His ES numbers are nice but playing with the teams best wingers definitely helps. Last night was a perfect example. He killed every single chance offensively when he touched the puck. Kotkaniemi should be on that line imo.

His even strength numbers are not just "nice". They are, so far this year, at a first line level. If he truly killed every single offensive chance for his line, he would not be among the better forwards in the league offensive stats-wise.

The truth is you are exaggerating, and I've asked you a million times not to do that!

 

[BaseballCoach]

Im curious, where does his 1 goal rank despite his ice time and linemates? I said last night he killed every chance and he absolutely did. Danault is a 3rd line center and nothing more. I'd rather try Kotka with linemates who dont suck.

Shaw or Hudon could work for now, until Byron or Armia come back.

 

[habsfan891]

Im curious, where does his 1 goal rank despite his ice time and linemates? I said last night he killed every chance and he absolutely did. Danault is a 3rd line center and nothing more. I'd rather try Kotka with linemates who dont suck.

I'd have to think that 1 goal would be among the bottom of 1st line player rankings

 

[BaseballCoach]

I'd have to think that 1 goal would be among the bottom of 1st line player rankings

True, and I'm not saying Danault is a true first line player. but his usage as a top-6 player at ES only is not hurting the team.

 

[Mrb1p]

True, and I'm not saying Danault is a true first line player. but his usage as a top-6 player at ES only is not hurting the team.

Imagine the ES production of a talent like Kotkaniemi if Danault can reach that being spoon-fed offensive opoortunities left and right?

Its the same debate than with DD and Galchy, except Danault is worse offensively and doesnt have the benefit of a 1st line winger vouching for him.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Imagine the ES production of a talent like Kotkaniemi if Danault can reach that being spoon-fed offensive opoortunities left and right?

Its the same debate than with DD and Galchy, except Danault is worse offensively and doesn't have the benefit of a 1st line winger vouching for him.

On the PP I would agree with you. At ES, Danault is at the origin of a lot of the opportunities by retrieving the puck for his line/team.

I'm sure that Kotkaniemi will get better wingers as he continues to learn the ropes.

 

[BaseballCoach]

delete

 

[Mrb1p]

On the PP I would agree with you. At ES, Danault is at the origin of a lot of the opportunities by retrieving the puck for his line/team.

I'm sure that Kotkaniemi will get better wingers as he continues to learn the ropes.

You have to take this out of your head, Kotkaniemi is an UPGRADE on Danault, he's going ot produce even more chances than he does.

 

[BaseballCoach]

You have to take this out of your head, Kotkaniemi is an UPGRADE on Danault, he's going ot produce even more chances than he does.

Maybe offensively, but it very plausible that Tatar and Gallahger will have to spend more time in their own zone and less in the offensive zone, while Agostino and Lehkonen spend more time in the offensive zone and less in their own zone. Trouble is the guys who would get more offensive zone time are not the more productive ones.

 

[DAChampion]

He is now a credible second line C.

 

[Mrb1p]

Maybe offensively, but it very plausible that Tatar and Gallahger will have to spend more time in their own zone and less in the offensive zone, while Agostino and Lehkonen spend more time in the offensive zone and less in their own zone. Trouble is the guys who would get more offensive zone time are not the more productive ones.

Kotkaniemi is a better play driver than Danault, so no, it's not plausible, at all.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Kotkaniemi is a better play driver than Danault, so no, it's not plausible, at all.

But he's not better at killing the other team's play in our end and starting back forward.

 

[Mrb1p]

But he's not better at killing the other team's play in our end and starting back forward.

But he's not better at killing the other team's play in our end and starting back forward.

First, says who.

Two, who cares, really.

Three, it's not about playing in your zone but playing in their zone.

 

[Zorba]

He is now a credible second line C.

Danault? He’s a 3rd liner at best.
His one goal shows that and he’s not even a good defensive centre like pleks was In his prime
Danault is a dime a dozen player

 

[No More Subban]

Shaw or Hudon could work for now, until Byron or Armia come back.

Nahh.. Shaw is fine. I like what he brings to Domi's line. He knows he'll be scratched again if he does stupid things again.

When Byron and Armia come back, I'd sit Hudon and Agostino.

As for Danault, I can't really complain. He's a bottom 6 C who's being asked to be a top line C. He's not where he's supposed to be. That's not his fault.