OT: Philadelphia Phillies: 2019 Offseason #FireSZN

[DrinkFightFlyers]

This is where we’re going to have the exact opposite reaction.

With all of the talk about severity this is a slap on the wrist.

Really? What more could they have done? Losing four draft picks and your manager and GM AND a $5 million fine? That seems pretty steep.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Really? What more could they have done? Losing four draft picks and your manager and GM AND a $5 million fine? That seems pretty steep.

Ban them for life, which is established that MLB has no problem doing so.

Make it so they can’t spend any money on the international market.

They won a World Series and now fired the manager and GM so while they were very good at their job that no longer is a punishment. They’ll just hire very good replacements instead of running a skeleton crew.

Five million dollars and four draft picks is nothing.

 

[DancingPanther]

Ban them for life, which is established that MLB has no problem doing so.

Make it so they can’t spend any money on the international market.

They won a World Series and now fired the manager and GM so while they were very good at their job that no longer is a punishment. They’ll just hire very good replacements instead of running a skeleton crew.

Five million dollars and four draft picks is nothing.

I said many moons ago take their top 3 draft choices away, no international FAs, and no compensation picks (regardless of who bolts from the franchise) all for the next 2 years

As you pointed out, we're now in a "you can't fire me I quit" type of scenario that renders the main part of this punishment silly

 

[Here4ThaLids]

Wake me up when there's talk of vacating wins or some form of 'death penalty'. Flags fly forever, right?

The 21st century, really even just the replay era, has been absolutely punishing for any kind of belief in fair play or meritocracy in sports. We always knew -- we always knew! -- but so many veils have been ripped and tossed aside.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Ban them for life, which is established that MLB has no problem doing so.

Make it so they can’t spend any money on the international market.

They won a World Series and now fired the manager and GM so while they were very good at their job that no longer is a punishment. They’ll just hire very good replacements instead of running a skeleton crew.

Five million dollars and four draft picks is nothing.

Ban who for life? Hinch and the GM? Aside from Pete Rose who have they banned for life?

 

[DancingPanther]

Ban who for life? Hinch and the GM? Aside from Pete Rose who have they banned for life?

Half the Black Sox team, including Shoeless Joe? What's your point?

When you read that punishment, do you think it is severe enough to deter teams from doing it in the future? "All it costs is 4 draft picks and a couple sabbaticals for me my team to cheat in the playoffs en route to a World Series win"

EDIT: Strip the WS win from the records, strip any awards the team's players accrued in that time span. It's a joke that the players get off without anything here. Punish everyone. You don't need to suspend Altuve for the season, but something needed to be done from the top to the bottom and everyone in between.

 

[Halladay]

Ban who for life? Hinch and the GM? Aside from Pete Rose who have they banned for life?

Joe Jackson. Also the former Braves GM cause apparently he was a jackass and no one liked him.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Ban who for life? Hinch and the GM? Aside from Pete Rose who have they banned for life?

Hinch and the GM.

Former Braves GM John Coppolella Banned for Life from MLB for Rule Violation

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Wake me up when there's talk of vacating wins or some form of 'death penalty'. Flags fly forever, right?

The 21st century, really even just the replay era, has been absolutely punishing for any kind of belief in fair play or meritocracy in sports. We always knew -- we always knew! -- but so many veils have been ripped and tossed aside.

Too much money involved for all parties to get these type of punishments levied these days. That essentially goes for all major money sports.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I don’t care he’s a bit out there but Trevor Bauer is entertaining as f***.

 

[baudib1]

It's not. Pete Rose did nothing "wrong."

I don't even think of him when these things are brought up. If he bet against his team then sure.

I was a big Pete Rose fan and even an apologisit/denier for many years, but you're wrong. A manager betting on his team absolutely compromises integrity of the game.

 

[baudib1]

Joe Jackson. Also the former Braves GM cause apparently he was a jackass and no one liked him.

There were 22 players banned (some not officially, like Hal Chase) for gambling/throwing games, including the 8 Black Sox players.

 

[baudib1]

The MLB has guys who were known KKK members or of some association in the HoF right? There’s certainly guys in there who wouldn’t employ non-whites.

In general I really don’t know why any of these things in all sports take such a high horse stance when there’s known bad guys in all of them various reasons. There’s probably a fair amount of guys who have skeletons in their closet too that the public doesn’t even know about.

The reason why gambling and association with gamblers is the biggest crime in baseball is because it literally was going to destroy the game.

 

[baudib1]

Who hits more homers the rest of their career? Alonso or Harper? I'd guess Harper but it's close, he's two years older.

 

[baudib1]

I think Utley is in the HoF if Pujols is. It's been almost a decade since the latter was even a first division regular. Without the injuries, Utley's tenure with the Phillies is probably right there with Pujols' with the Cardinals.

BTW I think Utley is a Hall of Famer but the two aren't remotely comparable. Bill James once said that Utley led the league in every stat that wasn't readily available. He would look up stuff like most times reaching first base on an error, and the leader would be Chase Utley. Or most times going first to third on a single. Stuff like that.

But Pujols in the first half of his career was tracking to be the best first baseman of all time. He didn't get there, but Pujols for his Cardinals career is Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Hank Aaron -- a top 20 peak/prime player. The second half of his career is worthless but he already had a Hall of Fame career before then. It's kinda like Ernie Banks, who was a top 5 shortstop and then probably top a top 200 first baseman.

Utley's a top 15 second baseman.

 

[Flybynite]

Shouldn't Astros players be punished? They utilized the cheating or is MLB saying "just following orders" is ok?

 

[FlyingPhilly]

Wonder what happens with the Red Sox and Cora

 

[Petr Svoboda Mullet]

Wonder what happens with the Red Sox and Cora

He’ll be canned by tomorrow

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Half the Black Sox team, including Shoeless Joe? What's your point?

When you read that punishment, do you think it is severe enough to deter teams from doing it in the future? "All it costs is 4 draft picks and a couple sabbaticals for me my team to cheat in the playoffs en route to a World Series win"

EDIT: Strip the WS win from the records, strip any awards the team's players accrued in that time span. It's a joke that the players get off without anything here. Punish everyone. You don't need to suspend Altuve for the season, but something needed to be done from the top to the bottom and everyone in between.

Yeah I do. If I am the manager or GM or owner am I going to want to risk being suspended for a year and being branded a cheater? If I am the owner am I going to want to pay $5 million? It is so funny that people complain when a player is overpaid by $1 million or an extra year or whatever and trading draft picks or wasting draft picks for a championship is sacrilege and prospects and picks are so valuable but now all the sudden GMs and owners should risk this kind of punishments because money isn't a big deal and "only four" draft picks aren't important.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Joe Jackson. Also the former Braves GM cause apparently he was a jackass and no one liked him.

I was unaware of the Braves GM getting banned life. Still though, 100 years ago guys got in trouble for rigging a WS, Pete Rose bet on baseball, and this guy. I do not think what the Astros did is as bad as Rose and the Black Sox (don't know the specifics of the Braves guy so that could be comparable). Everyone steals signs, that is part of baseball. They just did it in an egregious way. Four picks, suspensions for the management, and $5 million is a hefty penalty.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Hinch and the GM.

Former Braves GM John Coppolella Banned for Life from MLB for Rule Violation

Did not know about this. I will read and get back to you.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Hinch and the GM.

Former Braves GM John Coppolella Banned for Life from MLB for Rule Violation

Wow, I am actually surprised that guy got banned for life. I feel like this is definitely worse. That being said, I don't think either should result in lifetime bans. I wouldn't have been upset with harsher penalties but I think their punishment is fair. Another option could have been (maybe still be?) to vacate their title? I think that would be more than appropriate.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

A little more reason as to why I don't think this deserves lifetime ban. Sign stealing is normal but the way in which they stole them was not. You don't think the Phillies have guys in the bullpen or on second base or whatever trying to figure out the signs in every single game and then use that during the next inning/game/series/whatever? That's how it is done. The Astros CLEARLY went above and beyond this and should be punished and were punished. This doesn't change the game. Did they win the WS because of this? I don't know, they were held two or fewer runs in 3/7 games in the WS. You want to take away the title, ok that's fine.

Something like betting on the games is infinitely worse. That calls into question the very integrity of the game. You don't if or when a guy is intentionally throwing a game. As many times as Pete Rose says he never bet AGAINST himself, you can't simply take that at face value. The guy is a gambling addict. Anyone that knows anything about any addiction is that they lie about their addiction, especially when faced with negative consequences. I would even go out and say steroids is worse than what the Astros did. I'm fully on board with a one and done rule for steroids. You want to stop guys from cheating that way, hit them hard. Stealing signs? You're not gonna get a lifetime ban from Commissioner DFF, certainly not on the first offense. My goodness would anyone even care about this if the Dodgers won?

 

[Hurricane28]

If the MLB wanted to have an actual on-field punishment, they would've handed down a 2020 postseason ban. That sets an example, and deters anyone from doing it again. Like previously said, this is a slap on the wrist.

Vacating a World Series is just stupid and has no impact.

 

[DancingPanther]

A little more reason as to why I don't think this deserves lifetime ban. Sign stealing is normal but the way in which they stole them was not. You don't think the Phillies have guys in the bullpen or on second base or whatever trying to figure out the signs in every single game and then use that during the next inning/game/series/whatever? That's how it is done. The Astros CLEARLY went above and beyond this and should be punished and were punished. This doesn't change the game. Did they win the WS because of this? I don't know, they were held two or fewer runs in 3/7 games in the WS. You want to take away the title, ok that's fine.

Something like betting on the games is infinitely worse. That calls into question the very integrity of the game. You don't if or when a guy is intentionally throwing a game. As many times as Pete Rose says he never bet AGAINST himself, you can't simply take that at face value. The guy is a gambling addict. Anyone that knows anything about any addiction is that they lie about their addiction, especially when faced with negative consequences. I would even go out and say steroids is worse than what the Astros did. I'm fully on board with a one and done rule for steroids. You want to stop guys from cheating that way, hit them hard. Stealing signs? You're not gonna get a lifetime ban from Commissioner DFF, certainly not on the first offense. My goodness would anyone even care about this if the Dodgers won?

Picking signs is gamesmanship. Using technology to steal signs is explicitly prohibited and is cheating. Your opinion is bad.