Phil Kessel Discussion Thread. (no goals as of Feb 4, 2013)

[The Apologist]

This. He's failed to adapt to scouting from other teams and he's failing miserably. I do not for one second buy this luck garbage; plenty of forwards have gone through droughts but they push to the net and make their own luck while this guy just stays 30 ft from the net and glides around passionless. He's a one-trick pony who very rarely gives full effort and this team will never be a winner while a guy like this is who you lean on to lead your offence.

So how do you explain the 99 goals as a Leaf?

 

[Gobias Industries]

Well surely if a player as great as Gretzky can go six games and be ok, a lesser player like Kessel will survive as well?

Of course he'll survive, but I don't get that reasoning.

 

[egd27]

Actually its very easy - did you know that a 6% increase in PK effeciency - has a net gain of -20 goals against. Thats moving from 28th to a modest 10th in the league.

Did you know that getting our GAA's under 3.00 would translate into a +40 goal differential from last season.

Did you know that Phil Kessel was responsible in one way or another of 47 goals against last year? Can you show your work?

Correct my math if its wrong but ... I see a +70 Goal Differential just by removing Phil from the lineup and replacing him with a guy that scores 0 goals - can help improve our Pk - and finishes the season breaking even 0 plus/minus

I'm sure there's some argument that neither Bozak or Lupul would score either - becuase obviously Phil makes them as players - so feel free to remove all of their goals as well!

I'll do it for you. They combined scored 43 goals last year ... lets take them off too

So we now have no phil kessel - 0 goals from Lupul and 0 goals from Bozak. Yet by the addition of one defensively sound player - that also scores 0 goals we have just allowed 27 less goals against.

Who is this magic player that scores no goals, yet ensures his team is never scored upon when he plays? Can we get one for each line and march to the Stanley Cup?

I shudder to think of the impact legitimate players would have

I have a couple of questions on your math.

 

[diceman934]

It's not supportable though, you honestly think if Kessel was breaking league scoring records, we'd throw him up on the cross after six games?

Not true, invalid point, waste of time.

Exactly......what a joke!

 

[egd27]

Man, 6 games without a goal for the great one? What a bust. He was extremely soft too.

Never surprises me who gets the point and who does not. Cheers.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Never surprises me who gets the point and who does not. Cheers.

What's the point, don't cheers us off, I'm open to debate.

I contend that if Phil Kessel was breaking league scoring records like the example you proivded, we wouldn't harp on him for having a six game slump.

What is your contention?

 

[Gobias Industries]

Actually its very easy - did you know that a 6% increase in PK effeciency - has a net gain of -20 goals against. Thats moving from 28th to a modest 10th in the league.

Did you know that getting our GAA's under 3.00 would translate into a +40 goal differential from last season.

Did you know that Phil Kessel was responsible in one way or another of 47 goals against last year?

Correct my math if its wrong but ... I see a +70 Goal Differential just by removing Phil from the lineup and replacing him with a guy that scores 0 goals - can help improve our Pk - and finishes the season breaking even 0 plus/minus

I'm sure there's some argument that neither Bozak or Lupul would score either - becuase obviously Phil makes them as players - so feel free to remove all of their goals as well!

I'll do it for you. They combined scored 43 goals last year ... lets take them off too

So we now have no phil kessel - 0 goals from Lupul and 0 goals from Bozak. Yet by the addition of one defensively sound player - that also scores 0 goals we have just allowed 27 less goals against.


I shudder to think of the impact legitimate players would have

You think one player can have this effect?

Head coaches spend years trying to accomplish the bolded, and you think shipping Kessel has this changed immediately?

 

[egd27]

What's the point, don't cheers us off, I'm open to debate.

I contend that if Phil Kessel was breaking league scoring records like the example you proivded, we wouldn't harp on him for having a six game slump.

What is your contention?

Sure ok.

Too lazy for exact quotes but:

Dice said Toronto never liked soft players.

I replied that he was right and Gretzky (he was considered soft) would likely get run out of town at the first sign of struggle.

This statement was using sarcasm to imply that there are certain people within the Toronto "fan base" can go to ludicrous extremes. (See, not liking Gretzky because he was soft, would be silly)

I then tried to pre-empt the argument that "Gretzky never slumped" by referencing an article about a slump he had been going through.

I wasn't actually making any direct comparisons between Gretzky and Kessel. (Again that would be silly)

And finally, I said "Cheers" to Eddie because I didn't have to write all of this out for him to understand it.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Sure ok.

Too lazy for exact quotes but:

Dice said Toronto never liked soft players.

I replied that he was right and Gretzky (he was considered soft) would likely get run out of town at the first sign of struggle.

This statement was using sarcasm to imply that there are certain people within the Toronto "fan base" can go to ludicrous extremes. (See, not liking Gretzky because he was soft, would be silly)

I then tried to pre-empt the argument that "Gretzky never slumped" by referencing an article about a slump he had been going through.

I wasn't actually making any direct comparisons between Gretzky and Kessel. (Again that would be silly)

And finally, I said "Cheers" to Eddie because I didn't have to write all of this out for him to understand it.

So you got tangential and then frustrated for him not following you?

Maybe we could be pertinent and avoid this kind of crap?

 

[egd27]

So you got tangential and then frustrated for him not following you?

Maybe we could be pertinent and avoid this kind of crap?

No I commented on eddies post.

 

[enixer]

Again with Sundin......he was never fearful of going to the dirty areas of the ice.....never! A much better comparison is Inge Hammarstrom....he hated physical contact as well.

lol
Now I know you're just arguing for the hell of it. I never watched Yzerman in the 80s and have no personal view on it. I simply pointed out that there is some debate regarding his development, which there clearly is, and you feel the need to argue with me about whether or not he was always a solid two way player.
Then I mention Sundin, whose jersey I picked up in '96 because I thought he was that good for the Leafs. I remember all the constant criticism he was getting, particularly because I disagreed with it. And here you are arguing with me again about whether or not he was always a solid two way player.

I'm assuming you decided to get into these pointless side arguments because you do recognize that players develop during the course of their careers, so that it is possible that we will see Kessel improve the currently weaker parts of his game.
binop7 suggested that Selanne was a better comparison to what we would hopefully see from Kessel, particularly since Carlyle had helped Selanne's defensive development as well. I believe there are many examples of players who improved their defensive play as they got older.
Seriously, that was my only point here. Again, I'm cool with you not agreeing, or with those who don't believe Kessel can improve even though Wilson's gone. But at least make some effort to understand the argument being made instead of arguing things that people aren't even disagreeing with you about.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Leaf fans surprisingly didn't boo him last night (from what I could tell from watching the game on tv).

 

[Mr Lahey]

Actually its very easy - did you know that a 6% increase in PK effeciency - has a net gain of -20 goals against. Thats moving from 28th to a modest 10th in the league.

Did you know that getting our GAA's under 3.00 would translate into a +40 goal differential from last season.

Did you know that Phil Kessel was responsible in one way or another of 47 goals against last year?

Correct my math if its wrong but ... I see a +70 Goal Differential just by removing Phil from the lineup and replacing him with a guy that scores 0 goals - can help improve our Pk - and finishes the season breaking even 0 plus/minus

I'm sure there's some argument that neither Bozak or Lupul would score either - becuase obviously Phil makes them as players - so feel free to remove all of their goals as well!

I'll do it for you. They combined scored 43 goals last year ... lets take them off too

So we now have no phil kessel - 0 goals from Lupul and 0 goals from Bozak. Yet by the addition of one defensively sound player - that also scores 0 goals we have just allowed 27 less goals against.


I shudder to think of the impact legitimate players would have

So basically we get rid of Kessel and become one of the top teams in the league defensively (based off your numbers). Maybe it's time to get that calculator...

 

[DaveT83*]

You think one player can have this effect?

Head coaches spend years trying to accomplish the bolded, and you think shipping Kessel has this changed immediately?

Sure one player - two players - a decent goalie. There are many facets to winning a hockey game. Scorings goals is just one of them.

You can win 1-0 - key word WIN as WINS vs LOSSES is all that matters. What does it matter if Phil scores 4 goals a game - and we loose 5-4?

Honestly what have we accomplished? We filled one hole and created 3-4 others. Maybe its time we try to fill those other 3-4 holes - and worry about where we can recoup Phil and his 30 goals later.

So basically we get rid of Kessel and become one of the top teams in the league defensively (based off your numbers). Maybe it's time to get that calculator...

Sorry I didn't realized that a

10th ranked PK
20th ranked GA's

Would make us a TOP DEFENSIVE TEAM in NHL. Expectations must be REALLLY low around here

 

[ACC1224]

Leaf fans surprisingly didn't boo him last night (from what I could tell from watching the game on tv).

Yes, the crowd was pretty intelligent last night. His effort was appreciated, he's the least of the Teams problems. There were lots of cheers of encouragement.

There were some Blue jay chants directed at the whole team and they were boo'd off the ice.

 

[diceman934]

Sure ok.

Too lazy for exact quotes but:

Dice said Toronto never liked soft players.

I replied that he was right and Gretzky (he was considered soft) would likely get run out of town at the first sign of struggle.

This statement was using sarcasm to imply that there are certain people within the Toronto "fan base" can go to ludicrous extremes. (See, not liking Gretzky because he was soft, would be silly)

I then tried to pre-empt the argument that "Gretzky never slumped" by referencing an article about a slump he had been going through.

I wasn't actually making any direct comparisons between Gretzky and Kessel. (Again that would be silly)

And finally, I said "Cheers" to Eddie because I didn't have to write all of this out for him to understand it.

Had you read my posts you would have understood that I was not attacking Kessel about his lack of scoring at all......I understand slumps etc. Read my posts and you will find that I have always focus on his willingness to compete.

I fully understood you point about Gretzky was but it was not valid as I have never attacked Kessel about his production. So hence why I asked what you point was.

I guess I expected that you had read my post before posting....sorry I will not make that same mistake again.

This is a debated about Kessel and his slump has nothing at all to do with my opinion regarding him. He is a very soft frighten player and he could score 30 goals from this point to the end of the season and my opinion of him will not change unless his play on the ice changes....that he shows that he is willing to engage in the physical aspect of the game. Not expecting him to be a bruiser or anything close, but at least be willing to be take a check to score a goal, or to get the puck out of the D zone.

 

[diceman934]

lol
Now I know you're just arguing for the hell of it. I never watched Yzerman in the 80s and have no personal view on it. I simply pointed out that there is some debate regarding his development, which there clearly is, and you feel the need to argue with me about whether or not he was always a solid two way player.
Then I mention Sundin, whose jersey I picked up in '96 because I thought he was that good for the Leafs. I remember all the constant criticism he was getting, particularly because I disagreed with it. And here you are arguing with me again about whether or not he was always a solid two way player.

I'm assuming you decided to get into these pointless side arguments because you do recognize that players develop during the course of their careers, so that it is possible that we will see Kessel improve the currently weaker parts of his game.
binop7 suggested that Selanne was a better comparison to what we would hopefully see from Kessel, particularly since Carlyle had helped Selanne's defensive development as well. I believe there are many examples of players who improved their defensive play as they got older.
Seriously, that was my only point here. Again, I'm cool with you not agreeing, or with those who don't believe Kessel can improve even though Wilson's gone. But at least make some effort to understand the argument being made instead of arguing things that people aren't even disagreeing with you about.

Maybe if you read my opinion of Kessel you would understand what my whole point is......I do not for a minute believe that Kessel does not understand what to do when he does not have the puck or where to be defensively in the D zone.....I believe that his is an intelligent player. My premise is that he lacks the guts/nuts etc to do it as seen by his play.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Sure one player - two players - a decent goalie. There are many facets to winning a hockey game. Scorings goals is just one of them.

You can win 1-0 - key word WIN as WINS vs LOSSES is all that matters. What does it matter if Phil scores 4 goals a game - and we loose 5-4?

Honestly what have we accomplished? We filled one hole and created 3-4 others. Maybe its time we try to fill those other 3-4 holes - and worry about where we can recoup Phil and his 30 goals later.

I agree with all of this, I'm a "trade Phil" supporter.

 

[Grabowaffle84]

Yes, the crowd was pretty intelligent last night. His effort was appreciated, he's the least of the Teams problems. There were lots of cheers of encouragement.

There were some Blue jay chants directed at the whole team and they were boo'd off the ice.

You can't blame the fans for getting restless. This team is underachieving and is better than what the current record indicates.

 

[ACC1224]

You can't blame the fans for getting restless. This team is underachieving and is better than what the current record indicates.

I'm not blaming the fans. They were terrible after the 1st last night.

I don't agree with the last part, their record reflects the Team.

 

[Erndog]

This team is underachieving and is better than what the current record indicates.

Noooooo chance.

No number 1 center. Arguably no #1 d-man. Their second best forward out for months. Playing 2-3 AHL D-men every night (Kostka, Fraser, Holzer). Decent, yet inconsistent goaltending with a GIANT question mark around both guys.

How they heck is that team NOT a 4-5 team!?!?! That has 4-5 written all over it.

 

[DaveT83*]

This goalless streak is a blessing in disguise - its really making Nonis and companies decision to trade him easier. Every GM in the NHL must be making inquiries. Tick Tock.

 

[-DeMo-]

Sure one player - two players - a decent goalie. There are many facets to winning a hockey game. Scorings goals is just one of them.

You can win 1-0 - key word WIN as WINS vs LOSSES is all that matters. What does it matter if Phil scores 4 goals a game - and we loose 5-4?

Honestly what have we accomplished? We filled one hole and created 3-4 others. Maybe its time we try to fill those other 3-4 holes - and worry about where we can recoup Phil and his 30 goals later.




Sorry I didn't realized that a

10th ranked PK
20th ranked GA's

Would make us a TOP DEFENSIVE TEAM in NHL. Expectations must be REALLLY low around here

with the addition's of JVR and Kadri, Frattin making the team full time in a couple of years these guys should be able to replace Kessel's offense.

 

[Gobias Industries]

This goalless streak is a blessing in disguise - its really making Nonis and companies decision to trade him easier. Every GM in the NHL must be making inquiries. Tick Tock.

Obviously the flip side is that this can't help his trade value.

 

[DaveT83*]

with the addition's of JVR and Kadri, Frattin making the team full time in a couple of years these guys should be able to replace Kessel's offense.

No doubt.

Imagine the additions of a 1bG / PWF / 1st + 3rd for example would have.

We'll be competing as early as next year.