Peter Forsberg Vs Alexander Ovechkin in their prime?

[Troubadour]

show me an all time list that has forsberg near jagr

forsberg's best playoff performance was when he rested the entire regular season, he is easily the most overrated player on this forum with lindros close behind

All-time? This is about comparing primes. During their respective primes, Forsberg was ranked very close to Jagr. Once Jagr's Washngton phase hit its bottom, they weren't close. Of course Jagr is gonna look much better in the all-time context, as he played nearly the same number of games as Gordie Howe.

 

[flipp]

All-time? This is about comparing primes. During their respective primes, Forsberg was ranked very close to Jagr. Once Jagr's Washngton phase hit its bottom, they weren't close. Of course Jagr is gonna look much better in the all-time context, as he played nearly the same number of games as Gordie Howe.

Agree. Many experts believed that Forsberg was as good as Jagr during the late 90s, Jagr had the offensive edge but Forsbergs defensive game and stellar play-off performance compensated for his slightly worse offensive production.

 

[daver]

Agree. Many experts believed that Forsberg was as good as Jagr during the late 90s, Jagr had the offensive edge but Forsbergs defensive game and stellar play-off performance compensated for his slightly worse offensive production.

Slightly worse? How about 25 points/82 games worse.

NHL.com - Stats

1.54 PPG vs. 1.26

Even their peak seasons weren't close: 1.57 (without Mario) to 1.41

I agree 2-way play and playoff performances close the gap but then team strength needs to be considered too.

 

[Iceman]

I want to say Ovi but man, Forsberg in the playoffs was something else.

 

[Troubadour]

Also, why has no-one mentioned international play so far?

 

[The Macho King]

Also, why has no-one mentioned international play so far?

Because the sample sizes are crap and teams are generally not equal.

That being said, of all of the all-time greats in international play, Ovi may be the absolute worst player in the top 100 as far as that resume goes. Disappointing in pretty much every venue.

 

[Troubadour]

Because the sample sizes are crap and teams are generally not equal.

That being said, of all of the all-time greats in international play, Ovi may be the absolute worst player in the top 100 as far as that resume goes. Disappointing in pretty much every venue.

Teams are generally not equal in the NHL either, and the sample sizes, while small, are not that miniscule. It definitely provides something to compare.

Juniors:

Forsberg 20 GP 15 G 44 A 59 TP / 2,95 PPG
Ovechkin 32 GP 41 G 15 A 56 TP / 1,75 PPG

Senior career:

Forsberg 63 GP 20 G 37 A 57 TP / 0,904
Ovechkin 96 GP 43 G 33 A 76 TP / 0,791 PPG

Forsberg smokes Ovi.

 

[The Macho King]

Teams are generally not equal in the NHL either, and the sample sizes, while small, are not that miniscule. It definitely provides something to compare.

Juniors:

Forsberg 20 GP 15 G 44 A 59 TP / 2,95 PPG
Ovechkin 32 GP 41 G 15 A 56 TP / 1,75 PPG

Senior career:

Forsberg 63 GP 20 G 37 A 57 TP / 0,904
Ovechkin 96 GP 43 G 33 A 76 TP / 0,791 PPG

Forsberg smokes Ovi.

Sample size and parity in international play is insignificant when compared to an NHL career. Draws in the group stage can have a huge effect on point totals, for instance, or how often they played in the WCs (which generally has very low quality of competition). And just in general - unless you have no other comparison point (for instance, many Soviet players), the NHL is much more significant comparison. If you're not talking about a player whose prime wasn't played in the NHL, international is an afterthought and not the thrust of the argument.

 

[flipp]

Slightly worse? How about 25 points/82 games worse.

NHL.com - Stats

1.54 PPG vs. 1.26

Even their peak seasons weren't close: 1.57 (without Mario) to 1.41

I agree 2-way play and playoff performances close the gap but then team strength needs to be considered too.

I agree, slightly worse was the wrong term, but as you say 2-way play and playoff performances at least make the gap a lot narrower, one could also throw in international play here (as Troubadour did) and that closes the gap even more.

 

[Troubadour]

Sample size and parity in international play is insignificant when compared to an NHL career. Draws in the group stage can have a huge effect on point totals, for instance, or how often they played in the WCs (which generally has very low quality of competition). And just in general - unless you have no other comparison point (for instance, many Soviet players), the NHL is much more significant comparison. If you're not talking about a player whose prime wasn't played in the NHL, international is an afterthought and not the thrust of the argument.

Anything over fifty games seems ample enough to base conclusions upon. Draws can have a huge effect on point totals of everyone, and WCs do not have very low level of competition. If they did, average NHL players would be dominating them every year, which is definitely not the case.

 

[The Macho King]

Mmmkay. Forsberg is the best. I'm convinced. The less than 100 games for each of them and only 150 total, most of which being World Championship games, definitely means more than the thousands of games between both of them in the NHL + playoffs.

 

[authentic]

Mmmkay. Forsberg is the best. I'm convinced. The less than 100 games for each of them and only 150 total, most of which being World Championship games, definitely means more than the thousands of games between both of them in the NHL + playoffs.

You don't wanna go there.

 

[The Macho King]

You don't wanna go there.

I'm hardly an Ovechkin defender in the normal course of business, but Forsberg is up there with Pronger and Niedermayer as the most overrated players on this board.

 

[authentic]

I'm hardly an Ovechkin defender in the normal course of business, but Forsberg is up there with Pronger and Niedermayer as the most overrated players on this board.

That's a cool story.

 

[tony d]

Ovie for me.

 

[flipp]

Mmmkay. Forsberg is the best. I'm convinced. The less than 100 games for each of them and only 150 total, most of which being World Championship games, definitely means more than the thousands of games between both of them in the NHL + playoffs.

I see a players production and overall quality of play in international tournaments and the Stanley cup playoffs as an indication of how good a player is when it really counts. Forsberg has a edge over Oveckin in that context. Think about, if you want to win a cup and could choose between prime Forsberg or prime Ovechkin, would it really be that crazy to choose Forsberg?

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

I want to say Ovi but man, Forsberg in the playoffs was something else.

yeah it was something else for the Avs to win the cup the last 2 rounds without him

something else for him to be 100% fresh after taking off the entire regular season in 2002

zero conn smythe wins, something else for sure

 

[Iceman]

yeah it was something else for the Avs to win the cup the last 2 rounds without him

something else for him to be 100% fresh after taking off the entire regular season in 2002

zero conn smythe wins, something else for sure

You mean when he led the playoffs in scoring without even playing in the finals?

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

You mean when he led the playoffs in scoring without even playing in the finals?

yeah that was 2002 right? when he sat out the entire season

ever think the rest of the guys were fatigued from a long season?

and he still played in 3 rounds, so it's not overly impressive

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Teams are generally not equal in the NHL either, and the sample sizes, while small, are not that miniscule. It definitely provides something to compare.

Juniors:

Forsberg 20 GP 15 G 44 A 59 TP / 2,95 PPG
Ovechkin 32 GP 41 G 15 A 56 TP / 1,75 PPG

Senior career:

Forsberg 63 GP 20 G 37 A 57 TP / 0,904
Ovechkin 96 GP 43 G 33 A 76 TP / 0,791 PPG

Forsberg smokes Ovi.

You literally questioned why someone was comparing Jagr's career to Forsberg because this poll is about "prime". Then you turn around and bring crap like international junior stats? Was that part of prime? Were those international all part of prime? OV tears Forsberg a new one in the NHL so his fanboys have to bring in junior stats.

Forsberg came top 5 in hart voting 1x. Before you bring up missed games, he played 70+ games 5x, all in his prime. That's more than enough games. So 1/5 he came top 5. OV has more hart wins than Forsberg has nominations. OV missed 10 games and still came runner up. Forsberg = most overrated player on this board.

 

[authentic]

yeah that was 2002 right? when he sat out the entire season

ever think the rest of the guys were fatigued from a long season?

and he still played in 3 rounds, so it's not overly impressive

He had more points than anyone who played all 4 rounds, and he did the same thing in 1999 after playing 78 games so your theory doesn't hold up. Also we've seen how well some other players play after having lots of time off, like Nylander this season for instance, except picture missing the rest of the season and then jumping straight into the playoffs. That's not even considering that he was recovering from injury and then getting back into game shape during all that time off.

 

[EXTRAS]

I'm a huge forsberg supporter. But I gotta go ovechkin if you're taking single season peak. There was a point when ovechkin was an absolute physical monster and offensive juggernaut.

 

[Troubadour]

You literally questioned why someone was comparing Jagr's career to Forsberg because this poll is about "prime". Then you turn around and bring crap like international junior stats? Was that part of prime? Were those international all part of prime? OV tears Forsberg a new one in the NHL so his fanboys have to bring in junior stats.

Forsberg came top 5 in hart voting 1x. Before you bring up missed games, he played 70+ games 5x, all in his prime. That's more than enough games. So 1/5 he came top 5. OV has more hart wins than Forsberg has nominations. OV missed 10 games and still came runner up. Forsberg = most overrated player on this board.

At least parts of their junior careers arguably overlap with their primes. Especially in Ovechkin's case.

Ovechkin was at his best by 2005, which is when he participated at his last WJC.

11 points in 6 games is nice for a nineteen-year-old.

Nowhere close to Forsberg's 31 points in 7 games though. And when you consider that Ovechkin was closer to his prime than Forsberg was to his, boy, does Forsberg blow Ovi out of the water. It's like comparing a carp with a whale.

Still, go ahead, time-frame their primes any way you want and Forsberg still comes off as a better international player.

Since the number of games played is a huge factor in deciding how valuable a player is to their team (as proven by Hart voting in 2000), you pompously declaring he played "more than enough" games further underlines your reluctance towards objectivity.

You still fail at comparing the players / their primes, instead, you compare their awards, ignoring the fact Forsberg played 82 games only once -- in his sophomore season.

Imagine Ovi being healthy only in his sophomore year. It's quite possible we wouldn't even be talking about him now.

So yeah, Forsberg by a hair. And trust me, you've missed out on a lot, having never seen him play.

 

[Plural]

Who in their right mind thinks OV was at his best in 2005?

 

[Troubadour]

Who in their right mind thinks OV was at his best in 2005?

I do. I remember the fall 2005 very, very well.

Btw Ovechkin was 20+20 in 34 games for the Caps. Not his peak, but definitely prime.