Peter Forsberg Vs Alexander Ovechkin in their prime?

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Ovechkin has been fortunate enough to remain healthy for the majority of his career. That's the main difference in their respect Hart voting resumes.

How many times has Ovechkin been a Selke finalist?

who the hell cares about the selke? it's one tiny step above the lady byng

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Sometimes yes, however, it is sometimes the other way around, that the supporting cast is a substantial factor in a player's ability to accumulate goals. I dont buy this "goals is more valuable than assists" when comparing top playmakers and top goal scorers. Forsberg scored 29 goals during his hart trophy season, his linemate Milan Hejduk scored 50 goals. Despite this huge difference, no one claimed that Hejduk was the superior player on that line.

Not only did Hejduk outscore Forsberg 50-29 in terms of goals, he also comfortably outscored Forsberg in terms of primary points (77-70). Nobody at the time suggested that Hejduk was the better hockey player, or the more productive offensive talent. Not to discredit Hejduk (he was a very good player), but it was obvious to anybody who watched them play who was the catalyst on the line.

It's true that, on average, goals are more valuable than assists, but that reasoning is likely untrue for elite playmakers. The goals created stat, for example, probably discounts assists too heavily (it suggests that Forsberg was never once a top five scorer).

(Fun fact - when Forsberg won the Hart and Art Ross in 2003, he was only 7th in "primary points" - behind Joe Thornton (87), Markus Naslund (80), Todd Beruzzi (77), Milan Hejduk (77), Pavol Demitra (73) and Dany Heatley (71)).

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

who the hell cares about the selke? it's one tiny step above the lady byng

It's just as valid a measurement of who was better in their prime as who had more top 6 finishes in the Hart voting against completely different groups of peers (aka they both don't mean much of anything).

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It's just as valid a measurement of who was better in their prime as who had more top 6 finishes in the Hart voting against completely different groups of peers (aka they both don't mean much of anything).

Ovechkins three hart wins came with malkin finishing second twice and Crosby finished second

 

[Ben White]

3 harts
3 Lindsay’s
7 Richards
1 art ross
1 smythe

Vs
1 hart
1 art ross

Come on guys

Doesn’t tell jack about their level of prime play though. Tells a lot about who played more full seasons however.

 

[Ben White]

How do you explain the huge gap in hart voting?

Saying Forsberg was 2nd best point producer of his era is cherry picking. Sakic clearly had a better point per game from 95 to 2001, Lindros had a better point per game every year from 1994 to 2000.

Forsberg peak is 1.5 years, Ovechkin is 3 straight years

Forsberg played a grand total of 1 full season + 4 where he played more than 60 games. Maybe that gives you a clue...

 

[Machinehead]

We always play the "if" game with Forsberg, but at what point in a poll like this, do we just assume that Forsberg isn't playing 82 games?

He got hurt every year. That's part of the package.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Ovechkins three hart wins came with malkin finishing second twice and Crosby finished second

That's great. Now, where would OV have finished in 95-96 when Forsberg scored 116 points (5th in the NHL) and ended up 13th in the Hart voting, behind 11 other future hall of famers and Jim Carey's Vezina winning season? Where would Forsberg have finished most years if his only real competition for the Hart was Crosby and Malkin?

 

[heretik27]

We always play the "if" game with Forsberg, but at what point in a poll like this, do we just assume that Forsberg isn't playing 82 games?

He got hurt every year. That's part of the package.

I'd still take him for the playoff monster that he was.

 

[flipp]

We always play the "if" game with Forsberg, but at what point in a poll like this, do we just assume that Forsberg isn't playing 82 games?

He got hurt every year. That's part of the package.

He still played a lot in the playoffs and that should be included in the evaluation of who was better during their prime IMO. Take the 98-99 season as an example. Forsbergs regular season stats was great (4:th most points) but not outstanding, however if you include his insane playoff performance that season (24 points in 19 games) it is plausible to rank him as the best or att least second best forward after Jagr that season.

 

[Thenameless]

If Forsberg was healthy and in his peak I would take him. He made other players better than Ovechkin does. Ovechkin is a better goal scorer but certainly not a better hockey player then Forsberg. Forsberg had elite offensive skills and was excellent defensively. Ovechkin has had a much more successful individual career though.

I agree with this word-for-word. The only reasons I picked Ovechkin in the poll were: 1) his greater durability 2) he is definitely better at goal scoring 3) as strong as Washington has been at times, it's still not the powerhouse that Colorado was (and I have to account for that). But yes, Forsberg is definitely the better player period, when both he and Ovechkin are on their game. 5 Forsbergs on the ice easily beats 5 Ovechkins.

 

[trentmccleary]

There is a right answer and a wrong answer to this poll.

Ovechkin is a 5 time Hart finalist. Ovechkin has been in the top 6 seven times. Forsberg did that once.

What a disaster.

The Hart Trophy is not an MVP Trophy! It's an MVP of your team trophy. Which basically means that it is a news story of the NHL trophy. Being good on a team without competing stars or better yet a bad team that makes the playoffs? You get Hart votes for that. Do you remember Yashin's 2nd place Hart vote in 1999? This is when you need to get over the idea that it's some kind of list of the best players in the NHL. Do you remember when a one-dimensional scoring forward who only finished 6th in scoring was the 2nd best player in the NHL? ... N-E-V-E-R, that's when. He got the vote because they were condemning the rest of the team.

This is actually closer than many people believe. Forsberg had a very good and long prime. Take a look at TSN yearbook ranking and compare Forsberg to Jagr who is the only player that is close to Forsberg during this time span.
Forsberg was ranked first 2 times, second 4 times and top 5 ten years in a row. This is precisely what I member from the that time period, Forsberg was always in the conversation regarding whos the best player in the league.

1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006
Jagr	2	Top 5	4	1	1	1	4	14	20	12	3
Forsberg	5	Top 5	3	2	2	4	2	1	1	2	13

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If you read these lists enough, it becomes clear that they aren't an analysis of who was great so much as a prediction of who is going to be great. So you'll constantly see them do stuff like this:

2020: two virtually similar players
ranked 15th - 25yo who had 70 points last year
ranked 20th - 35yo who had 75 points last year

2021: same two players
ranked 15th - 26yo who had 70 points last year
ranked 20th - 36yo who had 75 points last year

2022: same two players
ranked 15th - 27yo who had 70 points last year
ranked 20th - 37yo who had 75 points last year

Their projections are always a part of it, so their lists always fail when players don't perform as expected.

 

[canucks4ever]

Forsberg played a grand total of 1 full season + 4 where he played more than 60 games. Maybe that gives you a clue...

Oh really, Ovechkin misses 10 games and still finishes 2nd in hart voting. Excuses.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It's [the Selke] just as valid a measurement of who was better in their prime as who had more top 6 finishes in the Hart voting against completely different groups of peers (aka they both don't mean much of anything).

LOL no it isn't. Holy cow.

The Hart is the league MVP. It takes all factors into account.

The Selke is for the best defenseman among guys who aren't defenseman. And Forsberg never won one anyway and was only a finalist once.

Weak sauce.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The Hart Trophy is not an MVP Trophy! It's an MVP of your team trophy. Which basically means that it is a news story of the NHL trophy. Being good on a team without competing stars or better yet a bad team that makes the playoffs? You get Hart votes for that. Do you remember Yashin's 2nd place Hart vote in 1999? This is when you need to get over the idea that it's some kind of list of the best players in the NHL. Do you remember when a one-dimensional scoring forward who only finished 6th in scoring was the 2nd best player in the NHL? ... N-E-V-E-R, that's when. He got the vote because they were condemning the rest of the team.

Certainly there are outliers here and there in Hart voting but Ovechkin isn't one of them.

Generally they are the best players in the league - certainly if a particular name keeps appearing over and over again.

If you don't like the Hart, let's do Lindsay/Pearson. Same result - Ovechkin destroys Forsberg. Ovechkin has been nominated 6 times and won 3. Forsberg has been nominated, what, once? And won 0.

These two players are not on the same level. Not close.

 

[Plural]

Certainly there are outliers here and there in Hart voting but Ovechkin isn't one of them.

Generally they are the best players in the league - certainly if a particular name keeps appearing over and over again.

If you don't like the Hart, let's do Lindsay/Pearson. Same result - Ovechkin destroys Forsberg. Ovechkin has been nominated 6 times and won 3. Forsberg has been nominated, what, once? And won 0?

These two players are not on the same level. Not close.

Where can you see the nominations? I'd love to browse through some of the earlier one's.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Where can you see the nominations? I'd love to browse through some of the earlier one's.

Good question. I don't know the answer. I found a news article for Ovechkin's 6th nomination and another for Forsberg's nomination in 2003.

 

[Plural]

Good question. I don't know the answer. I found a news article for Ovechkin's 6th nomination and another for Forsberg's nomination in 2003.

Okay. Thanks.

It's amazing how little credit us fans sometimes give for Ovechkin about his Hart and Lindsay support. Those are not infallible awards but when you're so consistently among the top in both it means something.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

LOL no it isn't. Holy cow.

The Hart is the league MVP. It takes all factors into account.

The Selke is for the best defenseman among guys who aren't defenseman. And Forsberg never won one anyway and was only a finalist once.

Weak sauce.

My point was that how you match up against your peer group doesn't really mean anything when it comes to comparing you against someone from a completely different peer group, and the idea that it somehow definitively proves something is laughable. Forsberg scored 116 points one year and finished 13th in the Hart. OV only had 71 points in 79 games and finished 6th in the Hart vote. Which one was the better season? According to where they finished in the Hart vote, it's somehow the guy with 37 fewer points. Do you see a problem with that?

 

[Midnight Judges]

My point was that how you match up against your peer group doesn't really mean anything when it comes to comparing you against someone from a completely different peer group, and the idea that it somehow definitively proves something is laughable. Forsberg scored 116 points one year and finished 13th in the Hart. OV only had 71 points in 79 games and finished 6th in the Hart vote. Which one was the better season? According to where they finished in the Hart vote, it's somehow the guy with 37 fewer points. Do you see a problem with that?

No, I don't.

Scoring was significantly down from '96 to '16 - league wide from 3.16 GPG to 2.73. The discrepancy was compounded for top players because there were 5+ power play opportunities per game in '96 vs 3.11 in '16. Not coincidentally there were 12 guys over 100 points in Forsberg's year, and 1 in Ovie's, and that guy was barely over 100 whereas Forsberg had 2 guys with 149+ points dwarfing his stats.

 

[Randyne]

Where can you see the nominations? I'd love to browse through some of the earlier one's.

Good question. I don't know the answer. I found a news article for Ovechkin's 6th nomination and another for Forsberg's nomination in 2003.

2017-18 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

second line menu has "NHL Season Voting" option, rollover it and choose any season you want.

 

[Plural]

2017-18 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

second line menu has "NHL Season Voting" option, rollover it and choose any season you want.

Thanks!

Edit: They actually don't have Lindsay/Pearson votes in there. Those are the one's that I've been trying to find and haven't had any luck. It's the trophy that's voted by the NHL players.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

I voted Ovechkin a week ago, kinda surprised this is even still open to be honest.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Is this serious?

Ovechkin. Not close.

 

[bathdog]

No, I don't.

Scoring was significantly down from '96 to '16 - league wide from 3.16 GPG to 2.73. The discrepancy was compounded for top players because there were 5+ power play opportunities per game in '96 vs 3.11 in '16. Not coincidentally there were 12 guys over 100 points in Forsberg's year, and 1 in Ovie's, and that guy was barely over 100 whereas Forsberg had 2 guys with 149+ points dwarfing his stats.

This just looks bad on you.

Lemieux scored 161pts and thus outscored Forsberg by 38.8%.
Forsberg finished 5th in scoring.

Kane scored 106pts and thus outscored Ovechkin by 49.3%.
Ovechkin finished 15th in scoring.

What's next, Kane > Lemieux? Give it a rest.