Post-Game Talk: |Pens vs Panther | OT win | We are so very special. Our special teams giveth and taketh away

[AuroraBorealis]

They’re terrible defensively though. And the little bump in offense from Rust to Rakell isn’t making up for it. And if you look at our win loss record with Rust on L1 vs Rakell on L1, it’s not even close. We’re at about a .350 winning winning percentage when Rust plays on L1. This shouldn’t be about Malkin or Crosby. It should be about what’s best for the team.

Yep. A lot of Rakell's production is on the PP. Rakell needs to be on L1 cuz that's how we get more out of Jake and Sid, Rust plays better on L2, and the top 6 as a whole give up fewer goals against and control territory more.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I believe many Pens fans struggle to properly evaluate goalie talent. Though in fairness it's so difficult with so many factors.

You put Jarry in Boston and he's the vezina leader (health permitting). Teams effect their goalies numbers drastically.

I think Jarry is a top 10 goalie. He just has to get healthy. He's certainly our best shot sans Hextall getting real slick with deals all of a sudden...but I don't think there's a goalie version of Big Jeff so we'll stay put.

I'm guessing a 6.5Mx5yr contract incoming

Hard to stay healthy when your crease is easy to get to with the weakest crease clearing defensive unit in the league.

Jarry is a bigger goalie than CDS so he comes out and defends more aggressively and that’s just in his own crease, in both of his games back, he had to deal with a lot of contact and pushing back. CDS doesn’t even get that much bs.

Sully hates the physical types on this team, but honestly it’s the biggest element missing on this team the last 6 seasons. And it’s not from a lack of having them, it’s a coach that despises using them.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

f*** the Caps. We can beat that team with either #87 or #71 out. They're as old as us, and equally flawed. This time we will beat them with Wilson and Bäcky playing. Bonus. Hate that team.

Caps’ issues are the same as ours. A mental dipshit for a coach. Caps actually have options but the coach uses that team like he doesn’t.

 

[K Fleur]

What a game back for Letang. That dude rules.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yep. A lot of Rakell's production is on the PP. Rakell needs to be on L1 cuz that's how we get more out of Jake and Sid, Rust plays better on L2, and the top 6 as a whole give up fewer goals against and control territory more.

21 of his 32 pts are even strength.
11 of his is on the power play.

That’s not a lot. Guentzel has 1 less point and Sid and Geno lead the way. The issue is not enough wingers capitalize on the man advantage, which is the issue Rust is having. Rakell is top 5 on the team for 5v5 points. Rust being away from L1 and even L2 is the solve. But it won’t happen when the coach is a moron and sees only the same options. Giving up goals is also a possession issue, style etc. they have pulled away from the style that Bylsma and MJ had in puck possession and when Sullivan came in it was at the tail end of that with added speed that made the team a success.

They don’t cycle as much anymore and try to play off the rush with bad possession issues all over the place.

Funny enough, we need a power play specialist for a winger so the man advantage is a legit threat. If you neutralize Sid and Geno then you’re going to succeed on the PK because Raks and Guentzel have a lower chance of scoring without their playmaking. But having a winger or forward that thrives there is never a bad thing on this team.

I think a lot of blokes here agree - Rust should be on the third line. Better match ups, allows him to be the go to on the line which he also thrives with. I like Poehling for his C on the third line.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

What a game back for Letang. That dude rules.

It’s amazing he was able to get 2 on that incredible third stringer.

Alex Lyon has been a standout his entire career, easily the next big goalie to be a vezina candidate imo.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

21 of his 32 pts are even strength.
11 of his is on the power play.

That’s not a lot. Guentzel has 1 less point and Sid and Geno lead the way. The issue is not enough wingers capitalize on the man advantage, which is the issue Rust is having. Rakell is top 5 on the team for 5v5 points. Rust being away from L1 and even L2 is the solve. But it won’t happen when the coach is a moron and sees only the same options. Giving up goals is also a possession issue, style etc. they have pulled away from the style that Bylsma and MJ had in puck possession and when Sullivan came in it was at the tail end of that with added speed that made the team a success.

They don’t cycle as much anymore and try to play off the rush with bad possession issues all over the place.

Yeah but 8 of them are goals, which increases the value. Would be much different if those were secondary assists where he wasn't driving the play.
That's the most PPGs on the team, when he hasn't even been on PP1 for close to half the season. He's also had some nice screens there leading to goals which he gets no points for.

Rakell is top 5 in 5v5 points largely because of usage. He gets 14:51 5v5 TOI per game. 12 seconds back of Sid.

1.63 is not the greatest for a top 6 guy who gets 63% O-zone starts. You'd like it to be near 2.00 on a top 10 offense like ours.
But he makes up for that rate by increasing the rates of others through good puck management, passing, forechecking and backchecking.
He's easy to establish chemistry with. That's his biggest strength at 5v5 imo.

I still think he has more to give at 5v5. Some of it is on Jake too. He's not been consistent. He's missed a ton of glorious chances.

 

[Gurglesons]

Caps’ issues are the same as ours. A mental dipshit for a coach. Caps actually have options but the coach uses that team like he doesn’t.

I give Lavi a little more of a break because he’s playing guys who make 6+ mil

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah but 8 of them are goals, which increases the value. Would be much different if those were secondary assists where he wasn't driving the play.
That's the most PPGs on the team, when he hasn't even been on PP1 for close to half the season. He's also had some nice screens there leading to goals which he gets no points for.

Rakell is top 5 in 5v5 points largely because of usage. He gets 14:51 5v5 TOI per game. 12 seconds back of Sid.

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1.63 is not the greatest for a top 6 guy who gets 63% O-zone starts. You'd like it to be near 2.00 on a top 10 offense like ours.
But he makes up for that rate by increasing the rates of others through good puck management, passing, forechecking and backchecking.
He's easy to establish chemistry with. That's his biggest strength at 5v5 imo.

I still think he has more to give at 5v5. Some of it is on Jake too. He's not been consistent. He's missed a ton of glorious chances.

Rakell, to me, is definitely one of those "production doesn't tell the full story" guys, especially this year. There were several times throughout the year when his forechecking prowess created the scoring opportunity. For one reason or another, he didn't end up on the score sheet but the eye test tells you he was key to the team scoring.

Whichever line Rakell is on, is the line that is driving the offense. Rust, despite decent production, is struggling to drive play this year. Dude looks like he aged 10 years compared to last season.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Rakell, to me, is definitely one of those "production doesn't tell the full story" guys, especially this year. There were several times throughout the year when his forechecking prowess created the scoring opportunity. For one reason or another, he didn't end up on the score sheet but the eye test tells you he was key to the team scoring.

Whichever line Rakell is on, is the line that is driving the offense. Rust, despite decent production, is struggling to drive play this year. Dude looks like he aged 10 years compared to last season.

Totally agree. He for example pressures guys into mistakes without touching the puck, or he makes a good play in the neutral or D-zone and the puck gets touched by 3 other guys before the goal, so he's not on the scoresheet. But I'd say we also give him a lot more leeway on the board than Rust here, because he's newer.
He's made some bad defensive plays lately that cost us, that never gets mentioned. And I'd say that in the meantime Rust has stabilized his game with some solid performances that don't always get rewarded on the scoresheet. We're still sort of carrying on narratives from earlier in the year when there was a bigger gap between their play.

It's important to note that Rust is shooting 8.3% on the season when his career average is 12.4%.
Rakell on the other hand is 1% above his career average.
These differences sound insignificant, but over the course of 82 games are huge.
So some of the reason we hate on Rust here as much as we do is just bad finishing this year.

That line's been fine for me. Nothing special but not something that sinks us either.
Before dropping Rust to L3, I still think ZCRak + GMRust should be tried. My fear is that if Rust was dropped to the bottom 6 then we'd get nothing out of him, because of how little O-zone starts they get. He'd be a wasted ghost. We know he's better than what he's shown this year and it's vital to get him going for the playoffs. He's definitely been trending upwards for a while now.

 

[AlphaMikeFoxtrots]

How cute, people still think this team would consider trading Dumo...I mean it is possible, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm not holding my breath on anything.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

21 of his 32 pts are even strength.
11 of his is on the power play.

That’s not a lot. Guentzel has 1 less point and Sid and Geno lead the way. The issue is not enough wingers capitalize on the man advantage, which is the issue Rust is having. Rakell is top 5 on the team for 5v5 points. Rust being away from L1 and even L2 is the solve. But it won’t happen when the coach is a moron and sees only the same options. Giving up goals is also a possession issue, style etc. they have pulled away from the style that Bylsma and MJ had in puck possession and when Sullivan came in it was at the tail end of that with added speed that made the team a success.

They don’t cycle as much anymore and try to play off the rush with bad possession issues all over the place.

Funny enough, we need a power play specialist for a winger so the man advantage is a legit threat. If you neutralize Sid and Geno then you’re going to succeed on the PK because Raks and Guentzel have a lower chance of scoring without their playmaking. But having a winger or forward that thrives there is never a bad thing on this team.

I think a lot of blokes here agree - Rust should be on the third line. Better match ups, allows him to be the go to on the line which he also thrives with. I like Poehling for his C on the third line.

Not that it's the ONLY thing wrong with how we play, but I think the lack of puck possession game is a big reason we struggle so much at defending leads. Sullivan has them playing dump and chase hockey, so whenever we hit the red line it's dumped in and then we attempt (emphasis on attempt, not on succeed) to forecheck their D in deep. But instead the result is we only kill like 10 seconds which is the time it takes them to retrieve the puck and move it up the ice.

Puck possession allows you to hang on to the puck and forces the OTHER team to try and take it from you. You don't readily give up possession willingly like with dump and chase. It also allows you to regroup. Puck carrier is on a 1 on 3 break because his linemates are changing? Hold into the puck, circle back and wait or the new line to come on the ice so you can attack with numbers with the puck. Instead, we dump it in and surrender possession. And in situations where the line change is a bit slow, the opposition has a quick up the ice and catches us on a slow change.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

 

[ChaosAgent]

Totally agree. He for example pressures guys into mistakes without touching the puck, or he makes a good play in the neutral or D-zone and the puck gets touched by 3 other guys before the goal, so he's not on the scoresheet. But I'd say we also give him a lot more leeway on the board than Rust here, because he's newer.
He's made some bad defensive plays lately that cost us, that never gets mentioned. And I'd say that in the meantime Rust has stabilized his game with some solid performances that don't always get rewarded on the scoresheet. We're still sort of carrying on narratives from earlier in the year when there was a bigger gap between their play.

It's important to note that Rust is shooting 8.3% on the season when his career average is 12.4%.
Rakell on the other hand is 1% above his career average.
These differences sound insignificant, but over the course of 82 games are huge.
So some of the reason we hate on Rust here as much as we do is just bad finishing this year.

View attachment 641377

That line's been fine for me. Nothing special but not something that sinks us either.
Before dropping Rust to L3, I still think ZCRak + GMRust should be tried. My fear is that if Rust was dropped to the bottom 6 then we'd get nothing out of him, because of how little O-zone starts they get. He'd be a wasted ghost. We know he's better than what he's shown this year and it's vital to get him going for the playoffs. He's definitely been trending upwards for a while now.

Rust has played much better including yesterday. He missed a couple of finishes but he also showed jump and drew a penalty. I don't get the urge to bury him from so many here.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Rust has played much better including yesterday. He missed a couple of finishes but he also showed jump and drew a penalty. I don't get the urge to bury him from so many here.

Yep, and he didn't get scored on at ES in a goal fest. Rakell got scored on 3 times.
If Zucker deserves the patience he got from the board in the summer then Rust certainly deserves it. 156 points in 171 games the last few years and we're just gonna send him to where offense goes to die? I'd rather exhaust all options first. There's no way Kap or McGinn are better players.

 

[Flying Dego]

Yep, and he didn't get scored on at ES in a goal fest. Rakell got scored on 3 times.
If Zucker deserves the patience he got from the board in the summer then Rust certainly deserves it. 156 points in 171 games the last few years and we're just gonna send him to where offense goes to die? I'd rather exhaust all options first. There's no way Kap or McGinn are better players.

While I agree with you here...there's still a small part of me that imagines Sully has hacked your account to spread Rust propaganda.

In fairness Rust couldn't handle the suit game Zuck like does. Really that's the difference.

 

[Pens x]

Zucker magically healthy in a contract year? Weird.

Do you really want another Rust on this team next year? I really like Zucker, but I don’t want a Zucker signed long term again, only older.

We all know Hextall will just re-sign guys since that’s easier than having to acquire a legitimate player or watching tape on other teams’ players.

 

[Flying Dego]

Zucker magically healthy in a contract year? Weird.

Do you really want another Rust on this team next year? I really like Zucker, but I don’t want a Zucker signed long term again, only older.

Whether you want it or not it's a good chance of happening.

Until Hextall shows creativity I'll assume we sign Jarry and Zucker to multi-year deals in line with the rest that got contracts.

Where we will really get reamed is if he decides to retain Dumo. That is a #1 must move on from. At least the other two can play the game at an NHL level when healthy.

 

[Pens x]

Whether you want it or not it's a good chance of happening.

Until Hextall shows creativity I'll assume we sign Jarry and Zucker to multi-year deals in line with the rest that got contracts.

Where we will really get reamed is if he decides to retain Dumo. That is a #1 must move on from. At least the other two can play the game at an NHL level when healthy.

Oh I know it’s likely to happen. Not because it’s best for the team, but because it’s easiest for the GM, which really aggravates me.

 

[vodeni]

Yep, and he didn't get scored on at ES in a goal fest. Rakell got scored on 3 times.
If Zucker deserves the patience he got from the board in the summer then Rust certainly deserves it. 156 points in 171 games the last few years and we're just gonna send him to where offense goes to die? I'd rather exhaust all options first. There's no way Kap or McGinn are better players.

people really don't watch games with open eyes, Rakell has been cheating big time and is not all that good on forecheck last several games. He is floating, cheating and looking for a space for a shot while Zuck and Geno do the dirty work. In our zone he is always on the blue line and covering no one. How's that for a take? There is little bit of bad luck that that line has seen lately and started leaking goals. Rust is better now offensively but he also has a total floater on the opposite side, the worst effort guy in the Top 6, so I don't know...just let them play, its not like we have anyone, anyone ready to jump to that TOP 6 except Pustinen sarcasm

 

[vodeni]

not sure if anyone listened to Sully presser but the way he responded to the question when was Jarry injured indiicates that he is so annoyed by Jarry and that this injury is something totally weird that may got nothing to do with hockey.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Jarry seems like he's literally always either dealing with an injury that's hobbling him, or just straight up on the shelf with injury. Whatever it is, the team needs to get it taken care of because it feels like it's been years of this durability issue.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

people really don't watch games with open eyes, Rakell has been cheating big time and is not all that good on forecheck last several games. He is floating, cheating and looking for a space for a shot while Zuck and Geno do the dirty work. In our zone he is always on the blue line and covering no one. How's that for a take? There is little bit of bad luck that that line has seen lately and started leaking goals. Rust is better now offensively but he also has a total floater on the opposite side, the worst effort guy in the Top 6, so I don't know...just let them play, its not like we have anyone, anyone ready to jump to that TOP 6 except Pustinen sarcasm

Well isn't his job to wade into space and be the danger man in those situations? I know on the flipside we've gotten burned by a guy waiting near the net while his buddies went scrounging, many, many times this season.
If you sacrifice all 3 men to try and win the puck on the wall, that usually just leads to an outlet to the point in our system and nothing comes out of it. I guess it's situational. If he's in position to reach the puck before Zuck or Malkin, he should definitely try to win it back himself.

My beef with Rakell lately has been more in the D-zone. For example...



or

 

[Andy99]

not sure if anyone listened to Sully presser but the way he responded to the question when was Jarry injured indiicates that he is so annoyed by Jarry and that this injury is something totally weird that may got nothing to do with hockey.

Definitely something weird w it but I also got the sense they didn’t think it was too serious…

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I give Lavi a little more of a break because he’s playing guys who make 6+ mil

He did that thing with Strome when Backs was back where it threw them off course. It’s the kind of shit Sully does. Oh snap you’re back from a hard injury? f*** easing you in mate, take your spot back. Get your normal ice time back! Rather than slowly playing them in and keeping what works together and layering it in. It would have provided them a better look at depth but instead they’ll f*** it up the way Sully does with this need to pander towards the core vs what works and making sure the depth in the line up is sorted.