Series Talk: PENS vs Montreal Canadiens Round 1 (Best Of Five) - Episode II: On a peur, très peur!

[LOGiK]

I don't want to go all Tomlin way of thinking here, but round 1 could be pens - flyers. Round 2 Pens - Caps. Round 3 Pens - Bolts....

Nothing... nothing! is better than a penguins flyers match up... to me it is the best match up in the whole of sports.

 

[Bumpus]

2:23 of I-forgot-exactly-how-great-this-was!

 

[LOGiK]

It's about balancing skill sets

Like, you have Horny on L3 but....you probably want a guy like that on a PP line, too...Even if your top two lines are better without him

Shooting or lack thereof is totally different lol the pens are very frustrating at times...for no reason

Not to mention ego's. Some players would not take kindly being on the second unit.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

HFPens is in shambles when reading this

I believed it after reading a write up @JackFr did.

 

[Peat]

I'm kind of bored lately, well not really.... let's just say having plenty of time to think.
So, I been thinking about hockey and dumb stuff about it.... I thought, why don't teams just use the regular lines on the power play. Why scramble lines up when it's basically L1 and L2 for all the power plays... outside of entering the attk zone and positioning - players know what to do and wouldn't require all new lines to practice and have more players have to gel with on top of their own line.....why throw (pass) the puck around 25 times before shooting?
Why not use a different tactic with a man advantage....

If you watch other teams --- they all have that prime puck carrier that lags behind a secondary player who gets to center (ish) ice and just leaves the puck there or softly drops it to the following primary zone enter man. Since when did this become power play status quo?

Like sully and crew changed the face of the game with speed over brute caveman tactics - I think the power play is going to be next in line for a coach taking a radical new approach to take advantage of having a whole two minutes with an extra man.

So there's a bunch of stuff there.

1 - Why not use regular lines?

A) You don't always have all the best talent on your top 2 lines (think Kessel on HBK, Horny this season, Guentzel's brief stint at 3C, etc.etc.) B) Lines change pretty often, particularly in Sully world, but the PP unit can stay pretty consistent, so it results in better chemistry C) PPs always get better results with 4 forwards, so you've got to scramble lines anyway, so why not go all the way D) these guys have egos and want to play with the best. Not playing PP with each other would be unpopular.

2 - Why always the drop pass?

This article explains the mechanics of PPs better than I can but the basic reason is it's a response to the most common 1-3 PK forecheck. The first man up is trying to funnel the puck carrier to one side or the other, so the centre man in the three can converge, and you've got a 3 on however many in a tight spot. It's pretty difficult to gain the blueline like that. So the idea behind the drop pass is the puck carrier forces the first man to bite, then makes the safe pass behind him, and the two trailing forwards can initiate an attack on the side without the first forechecker and get a 2 on 1 against a stationary dman to force the zone. The issue is you'll see teams make the drop pass without really forcing the bite.

Incidentally, I feel like I occasionally see the Pens sort of do a 1-1-2, with the first forward pretty high and forcing the dump-off early, leaving the second forward with a chance to funnel the puck carrier as well.

3 - Why no radical new approach?

I know you didn't quite ask this but it's kind of there and the issue is time. And conservatism too, but mainly time. How long is Pens training every day? Couple of hours? In that time, they're breaking down the last game, prepping for the next one, giving new linemates a chance to know each other due to chemistry... they don't have the time to implement new systems to the point where it won't lose the next few games. Maybe they would at a camp like this one - in fact, a camp like this is the perfect opportunity, and maybe we see some innovation in hockey - but mainly it's just hard.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Not to mention ego's. Some players would not take kindly being on the second unit.

They've tried splitting the units before to be more like the first and second actual lines and it was a shitshow every time.

If you want to hold Malkin or Crosby off the ice for almost a whole powerplay and intentionally shoot yourself directly in the foot that's a great way to do it.

 

[LOGiK]

So there's a bunch of stuff there.

1 - Why not use regular lines?

A) You don't always have all the best talent on your top 2 lines (think Kessel on HBK, Horny this season, Guentzel's brief stint at 3C, etc.etc.) B) Lines change pretty often, particularly in Sully world, but the PP unit can stay pretty consistent, so it results in better chemistry C) PPs always get better results with 4 forwards, so you've got to scramble lines anyway, so why not go all the way D) these guys have egos and want to play with the best. Not playing PP with each other would be unpopular.

2 - Why always the drop pass?

This article explains the mechanics of PPs better than I can but the basic reason is it's a response to the most common 1-3 PK forecheck. The first man up is trying to funnel the puck carrier to one side or the other, so the centre man in the three can converge, and you've got a 3 on however many in a tight spot. It's pretty difficult to gain the blueline like that. So the idea behind the drop pass is the puck carrier forces the first man to bite, then makes the safe pass behind him, and the two trailing forwards can initiate an attack on the side without the first forechecker and get a 2 on 1 against a stationary dman to force the zone. The issue is you'll see teams make the drop pass without really forcing the bite.

Incidentally, I feel like I occasionally see the Pens sort of do a 1-1-2, with the first forward pretty high and forcing the dump-off early, leaving the second forward with a chance to funnel the puck carrier as well.

3 - Why no radical new approach?

I know you didn't quite ask this but it's kind of there and the issue is time. And conservatism too, but mainly time. How long is Pens training every day? Couple of hours? In that time, they're breaking down the last game, prepping for the next one, giving new linemates a chance to know each other due to chemistry... they don't have the time to implement new systems to the point where it won't lose the next few games. Maybe they would at a camp like this one - in fact, a camp like this is the perfect opportunity, and maybe we see some innovation in hockey - but mainly it's just hard.

Also, PP is mostly L1 and L2 (exceptions like you said, horny) and PK is mostly L3 L4 (with exceptions, Sid, etc)
So while resting L1 and L2 on the PK they get to come out against the teams L3 / L4 after an unsuccessful power play...

 

[Peat]

HFPens is in shambles when reading this

I believed it after reading a write up @JackFr did.

I'm really hoping we can get an article from Jesse or someone else on how it all works. The statistical sample is a decent sized one and it's pretty unforgiving - chances and shots actually flow much the same, but Blueger-Tanev go from decisively controlling the high quality chances with ZAR to being decisively controlled without him - but I need to know how it actually works.

Looking at the other partners Blueger-Tanev had statistically... bad with Simon, slightly worse with Chucky, somehow a little worse again with McCann, holy mother of thunder my eyeballs exploded bad with Lafferty, and super dominant with Rodrigues. Now, tiny samples (about 40 minutes) with each guy, but that isn't a line of defensive schmucks. It's not surprising having ZAR worked out better than Chucky, but Simon's usually solid chance wise (and was with ZAR and Blueger), McCann's a player, Lafferty dipped but knows how to defend...

I need to know how this works

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The Pens seem to be a very determined team. Crosby and Malkin setting the tone and the rest of the team is following. Many arriving a half hour early to practice and staying after.



Jarry employing the old dog training trick.

 

[LOGiK]

The Pens seem to be a very determined team. Crosby and Malkin setting the tone and the rest of the team is following. Many arriving a half hour early to practice and staying after.



Jarry employing the old dog training trick.

I love Jarry man. So glad he made good on his chance at the big show.

 

[EightyOne]

As if jarry needed to puckhandle even better?!?

 

[LOGiK]

As if jarry needed to puckhandle even better?!?

Exactly...

Did Murray do anything to work on that glove of his?


(waits patiently for empoleon to jump in.... shouldn't be long.)

 

[LOGiK]

@EightyOne

Do you have PM's turned off?

 

[EightyOne]

@EightyOne

Do you have PM's turned off?

Who knows. Maybe I'm on restriction lol lol

 

[LOGiK]

Who knows. Maybe I'm on restriction lol lol

I pm'd another poster no problem, but you, you sir, I can not.

Never heard of a pm restriction. Is that even a thing? Can you do me?

 

[Khelandros]

2:23 of I-forgot-exactly-how-great-this-was!

List of career achievements by Allen Iverson

NBA achievements
Iverson with the Sixers

• Hall of Famer
  • Class of 2016 – Individual
• NBA Most Valuable Player – 2001
• Four-time NBA scoring champion
• 11-time NBA All-Star
• Two-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
• 7-time All-NBA
• Three-time NBA steals leader
• Seven-time NBA minutes leader
• NBA Rookie of the Year – 1997
• NBA All-Rookie First Team – 1997
• NBA Rookie Challenge MVP – 1997
• Number 3 retired by the Philadelphia 76ers

College

• Consensus first-team All-American (1996)
• First-team All-Big East (1996)

Personal

• Meme

List of career acheivements by Sidney Crosby

Award / Honour	Year
NHL
NHL All-Rookie Team	2006
NHL All-Star Game	2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019
Art Ross Trophy	2007, 2014
Hart Memorial Trophy	2007, 2014
Ted Lindsay Award	2007, 2013, 2014
Mark Messier Leadership Award	2007, 2010
NHL First All-Star Team	2007, 2013, 2014, 2016
Stanley Cup champion	2009, 2016, 2017
Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy	2010, 2017
NHL Second All-Star Team	2010, 2015, 2017, 2019
Conn Smythe Trophy	2016, 2017
NHL All-Star Game SuperSkills Accuracy Winner	2017
NHL All-Star Game Most Valuable Player	2019
Pittsburgh Penguins
Michel Brière Rookie of the Year Award	2006
Most Valuable Player Award	2006, 2007, 2010, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2019
A.T. Caggiano Memorial Booster Club Award	2006, 2007, 2010, 2013, 2014
Aldege "Baz" Bastien Memorial Good Guy Award	2006, 2009, 2010
The Edward J. DeBartolo Community Service Award	2010, 2016, 2017
Players' Player Award	2018, 2019
International
World Junior Gold Medal	2005
World Championship Leading Scorer	2006
World Championship Best Forward	2006
World Championship All-Star Team	2006
Olympic Gold Medal	2010, 2014
World Championship Gold Medal	2015
World Cup of Hockey Gold Medal	2016
World Cup of Hockey Leading Scorer	2016
World Cup of Hockey Most Valuable Player	2016
Junior
President's Cup	2004
RDS/JVC Trophy	2004
QMJHL All-Rookie Team	2004
Michel Bergeron Trophy	2004
CHL Rookie of the Year	2004
QMJHL First All-Star Team	2004, 2005
Michel Brière Memorial Trophy	2004, 2005
Jean Béliveau Trophy	2004, 2005
Paul Dumont Trophy	2004, 2005
Offensive Player of the Year	2004, 2005
CHL First All-Star Team	2004, 2005
CHL Player of the Year	2004, 2005
CHL Top Scorer Award	2004, 2005
Canada Post Cup	2004, 2005
Guy Lafleur Trophy	2005
Mike Bossy Trophy	2005
Top Pro Prospect	2005
Memorial Cup All-Star Team	2005
Ed Chynoweth Trophy	2005
Rimouski Océanic and Quebec Major Junior Hockey League Océanic de Rimouski retired jersey #87	2019[24]
Minor
Nova Scotia Major Midget Hockey League Champion	2002
Air Canada Cup Tournament MVP Award	2002
Air Canada Cup Top Scorer Award	2002
Air Canada Cup Scholarship	2002
USA Hockey National Midget Champion	2003
Other awards
Dapper Dan Sportsman of the Year	2006, 2007, 2017
Sporting News, NHL Player of the Year	2007[227]
ESPY Award, NHL Player of the Year	2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017
Lou Marsh Trophy (Canadian athlete of the year)	2007, 2009[228]
Lionel Conacher Award (Canadian male athlete of the year)	2007, 2009, 2010
Order of Nova Scotia	2008[229]
AIF Chairman's Award for leadership in community and charitable activities	2008
ESPN, Top Ten NHL Players of the Decade (2000–2009)	2009[230]
Sporting News, Top 50 Players in Today's NHL (Ranked No. 1)	2009[231]
Sporting News, Top Under-25 Athlete	2010
The Sports Network, Hockey's Top 50 (Ranked No. 1)	2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016[232]
The Hockey News, Saku Koivu Award (Comeback Player)	2013
The Hockey News, Mario Lemieux Award (Best Player)	2013, 2014
Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal	2013[233]
The Hockey News, Wayne Gretzky Award (MVP)	2014, 2016
Triple Gold Club	2015
ESPN, Top 20 Athletes 1995–2015 (Ranked No. 20)	2015[234]
Emmy Award, Best Sports One-Time Special	2016
Sporting News, NHL Athlete of the Decade	2010–2020[235]
ESPN, NHL's All-Decade Awards: MVP	2010–2020[236]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Practice!

 

[EightyOne]

I pm'd another poster no problem, but you, you sir, I can not.

Never heard of a pm restriction. Is that even a thing? Can you do me?

I probably turned everything off lol

Every few months I swear I'm never logging in again, destroy everything..

..then log in three days later lol

 

[KIRK]

JJ will get PK time. He is fine at it.

Schultz will get PP2 time.

I do agree that their 5v5 minutes will be very limited.

Which is why the question of how many minutes Pets-Marino can eat will be almost as important as the goaltending question.

 

[KIRK]

HFPens is in shambles when reading this

I'll admit. A little piece of me died reading this.

But for heaven's sake, don't let @ColePens see this.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Which is why the question of how many minutes Pets-Marino can eat will be almost as important as the goaltending question.

We know Letang and Dumoulin are good for 25. Letang can go up to 28-30 if needed.

I am confident Marino can give us about 22. Pettersson is the wild card here, but I think he can give us 20 solid minutes.

So, realistically, JJ and Schultz need to give us between 10 and 15 minutes each. They can manage that.

 

[KIRK]

We know Letang and Dumoulin are good for 25. Letang can go up to 28-30 if needed.

I am confident Marino can give us about 22. Pettersson is the wild card here, but I think he can give us 20 solid minutes.

So, realistically, JJ and Schultz need to give us between 10 and 15 minutes each. They can manage that.

See it 100% the same as you.

Trying to think why I'm especially sour on the Sid, Geno, Jake, Horny, 1D unit, and I think it goes beyond the movement and support issues we regularly see in the offensive zone. I think-- and I'm not sure why or even if this is right-- like the guy taking a pass entering the zone a lot is Horny (little speed because he's up ice when the breakout starts, gets jumped, hard to support).

 

[LOGiK]

I probably turned everything off lol

Every few months I swear I'm never logging in again, destroy everything..

..then log in three days later lol

I'd have to agree and say I have similar sentiment ... one day it will stick though... and I'll be free from it all.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

List of career achievements by Allen Iverson

NBA achievements
Iverson with the Sixers

• Hall of Famer
  • Class of 2016 – Individual
• NBA Most Valuable Player – 2001
• Four-time NBA scoring champion
• 11-time NBA All-Star
• Two-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
• 7-time All-NBA
• Three-time NBA steals leader
• Seven-time NBA minutes leader
• NBA Rookie of the Year – 1997
• NBA All-Rookie First Team – 1997
• NBA Rookie Challenge MVP – 1997
• Number 3 retired by the Philadelphia 76ers

College

• Consensus first-team All-American (1996)
• First-team All-Big East (1996)

Personal

• Meme

List of career acheivements by Sidney Crosby

Award / Honour	Year
NHL
NHL All-Rookie Team	2006
NHL All-Star Game	2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019
Art Ross Trophy	2007, 2014
Hart Memorial Trophy	2007, 2014
Ted Lindsay Award	2007, 2013, 2014
Mark Messier Leadership Award	2007, 2010
NHL First All-Star Team	2007, 2013, 2014, 2016
Stanley Cup champion	2009, 2016, 2017
Maurice "Rocket" Richard Trophy	2010, 2017
NHL Second All-Star Team	2010, 2015, 2017, 2019
Conn Smythe Trophy	2016, 2017
NHL All-Star Game SuperSkills Accuracy Winner	2017
NHL All-Star Game Most Valuable Player	2019
Pittsburgh Penguins
Michel Brière Rookie of the Year Award	2006
Most Valuable Player Award	2006, 2007, 2010, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2019
A.T. Caggiano Memorial Booster Club Award	2006, 2007, 2010, 2013, 2014
Aldege "Baz" Bastien Memorial Good Guy Award	2006, 2009, 2010
The Edward J. DeBartolo Community Service Award	2010, 2016, 2017
Players' Player Award	2018, 2019
International
World Junior Gold Medal	2005
World Championship Leading Scorer	2006
World Championship Best Forward	2006
World Championship All-Star Team	2006
Olympic Gold Medal	2010, 2014
World Championship Gold Medal	2015
World Cup of Hockey Gold Medal	2016
World Cup of Hockey Leading Scorer	2016
World Cup of Hockey Most Valuable Player	2016
Junior
President's Cup	2004
RDS/JVC Trophy	2004
QMJHL All-Rookie Team	2004
Michel Bergeron Trophy	2004
CHL Rookie of the Year	2004
QMJHL First All-Star Team	2004, 2005
Michel Brière Memorial Trophy	2004, 2005
Jean Béliveau Trophy	2004, 2005
Paul Dumont Trophy	2004, 2005
Offensive Player of the Year	2004, 2005
CHL First All-Star Team	2004, 2005
CHL Player of the Year	2004, 2005
CHL Top Scorer Award	2004, 2005
Canada Post Cup	2004, 2005
Guy Lafleur Trophy	2005
Mike Bossy Trophy	2005
Top Pro Prospect	2005
Memorial Cup All-Star Team	2005
Ed Chynoweth Trophy	2005
Rimouski Océanic and Quebec Major Junior Hockey League Océanic de Rimouski retired jersey #87	2019[24]
Minor
Nova Scotia Major Midget Hockey League Champion	2002
Air Canada Cup Tournament MVP Award	2002
Air Canada Cup Top Scorer Award	2002
Air Canada Cup Scholarship	2002
USA Hockey National Midget Champion	2003
Other awards
Dapper Dan Sportsman of the Year	2006, 2007, 2017
Sporting News, NHL Player of the Year	2007[227]
ESPY Award, NHL Player of the Year	2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017
Lou Marsh Trophy (Canadian athlete of the year)	2007, 2009[228]
Lionel Conacher Award (Canadian male athlete of the year)	2007, 2009, 2010
Order of Nova Scotia	2008[229]
AIF Chairman's Award for leadership in community and charitable activities	2008
ESPN, Top Ten NHL Players of the Decade (2000–2009)	2009[230]
Sporting News, Top 50 Players in Today's NHL (Ranked No. 1)	2009[231]
Sporting News, Top Under-25 Athlete	2010
The Sports Network, Hockey's Top 50 (Ranked No. 1)	2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016[232]
The Hockey News, Saku Koivu Award (Comeback Player)	2013
The Hockey News, Mario Lemieux Award (Best Player)	2013, 2014
Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal	2013[233]
The Hockey News, Wayne Gretzky Award (MVP)	2014, 2016
Triple Gold Club	2015
ESPN, Top 20 Athletes 1995–2015 (Ranked No. 20)	2015[234]
Emmy Award, Best Sports One-Time Special	2016
Sporting News, NHL Athlete of the Decade	2010–2020[235]
ESPN, NHL's All-Decade Awards: MVP	2010–2020[236]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Practice!

Unreal how lucky we got!

 

[Peat]

See it 100% the same as you.

Trying to think why I'm especially sour on the Sid, Geno, Jake, Horny, 1D unit, and I think it goes beyond the movement and support issues we regularly see in the offensive zone. I think-- and I'm not sure why or even if this is right-- like the guy taking a pass entering the zone a lot is Horny (little speed because he's up ice when the breakout starts, gets jumped, hard to support).

What if I were to tell you that exact unit has played less than 7 minutes together on the PP, only 4:46 of it this season?

 

[JackFr]

I'm really hoping we can get an article from Jesse or someone else on how it all works. The statistical sample is a decent sized one and it's pretty unforgiving - chances and shots actually flow much the same, but Blueger-Tanev go from decisively controlling the high quality chances with ZAR to being decisively controlled without him - but I need to know how it actually works.

Looking at the other partners Blueger-Tanev had statistically... bad with Simon, slightly worse with Chucky, somehow a little worse again with McCann, holy mother of thunder my eyeballs exploded bad with Lafferty, and super dominant with Rodrigues. Now, tiny samples (about 40 minutes) with each guy, but that isn't a line of defensive schmucks. It's not surprising having ZAR worked out better than Chucky, but Simon's usually solid chance wise (and was with ZAR and Blueger), McCann's a player, Lafferty dipped but knows how to defend...

I need to know how this works

I can't offer the Xs and Os that Jesse could, but ZAR had far higher puck retrievals/forechecking numbers than either Blueger or Tanev this season. So that would be my guess. He's able to use his physicality to get to pucks and keep them along the boards in a way that allows Tanev and Blueger to do their thing.

This was my write-up BTW: