Post-Game Talk: Pens vs Leafs: Spanking, Canada's revenge

[BusinessGoose]

Was Dubas supposed to fix every problem this team has in one offseason? Hell, Rutherford completely misfired in his first offseason here, too.

I think a lot of the gripes come down to impatience and unrealistic expectations.

Anything the core does at this stage of their careers is a bonus. You try to compete with them, but expecting it to actually work out and holding them to the same standard of their primes is just ridiculous.

Same with a coaching change. There's an argument to fire Sullivan. But the "Anyone But Sullivan" crowd is so focused on a short-term fix that they don't care if the short-term fix blows up in their face. The smart move is to wait and get someone who can actually bring sustainable change and new ideas, not just a two-week bump in the standings.

We don't have time to figure things out.

Rutherford was here while we had time.

Dubas needs to perform magic or be known as the doctor on shift when the patient finally died. Even if the ambulance crew dropped them off in the ER without much of a pulse left.

So the only option is to accept they're garbage and a waste of time for the next half decade until they have 1st round picks again.

 

[Gurglesons]

Glad @DesertedPenguin is now defending Dubas because who could’ve predicted spending the 15 million in cap space we had on Lars Eller, Ryan Graves, Noel Acciari, Matt Nieto and Tristan Jarry wouldn’t help elevate our offensive depth issues..

 

[DearDiary]

Even if FSG is telling Dubas to keep Sullivan, why is Reirden still in Pittsburgh?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Glad @DesertedPenguin is now defending Dubas because who could’ve predicted spending the 15 million in cap space we had on Lars Eller, Ryan Graves, Noel Acciari, Matt Nieto and Tristan Jarry wouldn’t help elevate our offensive depth issues..

Your boy Tlusky would have likely targeted the same players, because they all have excellent analytics and Carolina has taken a similar approach to its roster building.

Hell, Staal's line is the poster child for defensive + possession but less production.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If I were a betting man, I would wager the problem tonight was that they didn’t get to their game.

The organization would first have to accept that Sullivan's the main issue.

Problem is, it's crystal clear they think it's a million things other than Sullivan.

Penguins - We have 99 problems but Sullivan ain't one.

Except we have 1 major problem and that pillock is it.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Even if FSG is telling Dubas to keep Sullivan, why is Reirden still in Pittsburgh?

Because maybe Reirden isn't the problem like many here want him to be, he might be one but it falls on the head coach, even when Reirden was with the Caps as Head Coach, his powerplay tanked with Forsythe and his team was ousted early twice and he was out, yet he still put up 40+ wins both times (won division twice). The funniest shit is that Reirden won a cup as an Assistant before taking over as head coach, he wins the division twice, loses in the 1st round twice and is fired, meanwhile in those 2yrs, Sullivan is out in the 1st round and then the Qualifying Round, which is to me his first playoffs miss. I mean here's a good example of the issues and what the powerplay has been with the other Assistant before Todd.

Mark Recchi's tenure running the powerplay per season:
2017-18 - Ranked 1st
2018-19 - Ranked 5th
2019-20 - Ranked 16th

Todd Reirden's tenure running the powerplay per season:
2020-21 - Ranked 4th
2021-22 - Ranked 19th
2022-23 - Ranked 14th
2023-24 - Currently 27th

From 2016-17 to 2018-19, the Pens ranked 4th (Tocchet), 1st (Recchi), and 5th (Recchi). That was their best stretch. Reirden came on board the first stint in 2010-11, Pens were ranked 25th that year, then 5th, 2nd, and 1st before he moved on to the Caps, then came the dreadful MJ era - 2014-15 they dropped to 10th, 16th, and 4th with Tocchet at the helm. The funny thing is in his first stint - he did amazing, that first year was rough, but then 5th, 2nd, and 1st? Yeah you can't ignore that. Also you can't ignore the Caps powerplay that he ran as well.

With the Capitals - their situation was weird, if you looked at who ran their powerplay, you'd read that Blane Forsythe did from 2012-2023, but during Reirden's tenure as Assistant he also coached the Defense and the Powerplay as well, as head coach, Blaine took over sole duties again. In the time Reirden was there as Assistant - They had some pretty solid years on the powerplay as well as getting better defensively (1st, 5th, 3rd, and 7th were the PP ranks for Reirden's time - then when he took HC, Blaine had them do 12th, 17th, 3rd, 23rd, and 16th, now he's with the Coyotes where they jumped from 24th to 11th). His defensive work though - they went from 21st the year before him to - 7th, 1st, 1st, then 16th.


It's easy to shit on Reirden, but the blame to me falls on Mike Sullivan. To be fair, I would probably fire Sullivan & Reirden together and name Vellucci the interim head coach.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Penguins - We have 99 problems but Sullivan ain't one.

Except we have 1 major problem and that pillock is it.

First and only time I ever heard that term was when my cousin from England visited when he was 11 and he got pissed off at me for cheating at a video game and called me that.

I was like, "are you insulting me or calling me awesome at this game?"

 

[IcedCapp]

Gotta re-tool the bottom six a few more times. The past fifty times didn't work, but maybe if we keep trying it eventually will.

to be fair, the bottom-6 is, has been, and may always be a pile of poop. Like there are good pieces there, but as a group it's well below average

 

[HandshakeLine]

to be fair, the bottom-6 is, has been, and may always be a pile of poop. Like there are good pieces there, but as a group it's well below average

It's because Mike Sullivan loves bad bottom 6s.

 

[Sideline]

to be fair, the bottom-6 is, has been, and may always be a pile of poop. Like there are good pieces there, but as a group it's well below average

And part of this is the last decade of selling draft picks catching up with the Penguins. Two ELC guys with good legs and the skill to put 30 points up would go a long way to upgrade over the waiver fodder playing in those spots. Need to get lucky on the scrap heap at this point.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

to be fair, the bottom-6 is, has been, and may always be a pile of poop. Like there are good pieces there, but as a group it's well below average

But that seems to be by design of the coach's wishes. He doesn't seem to want "skill" in his bottom six, but six guys who are defensively decent but offensively inept.

You're always going to have a questionable bottom six if the entire purpose is to replicate six ZARs.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

And part of this is the last decade of selling draft picks catching up with the Penguins. Two ELC guys with good legs and the skill to put 30 points up would go a long way to upgrade over the waiver fodder playing in those spots. Need to get lucky on the scrap heap at this point.

Yeah. This team's drafting and development the last like ten-ish years has badly hampered their ability to put together a good bottom six. Obviously they have had less top end draft picks to work with but you'd think they'd find some decent pieces past the first round throughout this timeframe. But if they weren't sabotaged at the draft table with the pick itself... they were when it came to opportunity or a lack thereof. Trying to poach other teams' bottom six players (sometimes at premium prices) has largely not worked. You have to do your own homework, there and for a multitude of reasons over the years the Penguins haven't.

I was actually fine with the team looking to go with a much more defensive bottom six this year because that's what the coach wants and I'm sick and tired of hearing how the coach never QUITE has the lineup he wants. Now he does. And here we are.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Because maybe Reirden isn't the problem like many here want him to be, he might be one but it falls on the head coach, even when Reirden was with the Caps as Head Coach, his powerplay tanked with Forsythe and his team was ousted early twice and he was out, yet he still put up 40+ wins both times (won division twice). The funniest shit is that Reirden won a cup as an Assistant before taking over as head coach, he wins the division twice, loses in the 1st round twice and is fired, meanwhile in those 2yrs, Sullivan is out in the 1st round and then the Qualifying Round, which is to me his first playoffs miss. I mean here's a good example of the issues and what the powerplay has been with the other Assistant before Todd.

Mark Recchi's tenure running the powerplay per season:
2017-18 - Ranked 1st
2018-19 - Ranked 5th
2019-20 - Ranked 16th

Todd Reirden's tenure running the powerplay per season:
2020-21 - Ranked 4th
2021-22 - Ranked 19th
2022-23 - Ranked 14th
2023-24 - Currently 27th

From 2016-17 to 2018-19, the Pens ranked 4th (Tocchet), 1st (Recchi), and 5th (Recchi). That was their best stretch. Reirden came on board the first stint in 2010-11, Pens were ranked 25th that year, then 5th, 2nd, and 1st before he moved on to the Caps, then came the dreadful MJ era - 2014-15 they dropped to 10th, 16th, and 4th with Tocchet at the helm. The funny thing is in his first stint - he did amazing, that first year was rough, but then 5th, 2nd, and 1st? Yeah you can't ignore that. Also you can't ignore the Caps powerplay that he ran as well.

With the Capitals - their situation was weird, if you looked at who ran their powerplay, you'd read that Blane Forsythe did from 2012-2023, but during Reirden's tenure as Assistant he also coached the Defense and the Powerplay as well, as head coach, Blaine took over sole duties again. In the time Reirden was there as Assistant - They had some pretty solid years on the powerplay as well as getting better defensively (1st, 5th, 3rd, and 7th were the PP ranks for Reirden's time - then when he took HC, Blaine had them do 12th, 17th, 3rd, 23rd, and 16th, now he's with the Coyotes where they jumped from 24th to 11th). His defensive work though - they went from 21st the year before him to - 7th, 1st, 1st, then 16th.


It's easy to shit on Reirden, but the blame to me falls on Mike Sullivan. To be fair, I would probably fire Sullivan & Reirden together and name Vellucci the interim head coach.

I've got an inkling this might be part of the reason why:

Yeah. This team's drafting and development the last like ten-ish years has badly hampered their ability to put together a good bottom six. Obviously they have had less top end draft picks to work with but you'd think they'd find some decent pieces past the first round throughout this timeframe. But if they weren't sabotaged at the draft table with the pick itself... they were when it came to opportunity or a lack thereof. Trying to poach other teams' bottom six players (sometimes at premium prices) has largely not worked. You have to do your own homework, there and for a multitude of reasons over the years the Penguins haven't.

I was actually fine with the team looking to go with a much more defensive bottom six this year because that's what the coach wants and I'm sick and tired of hearing how the coach never QUITE has the lineup he wants. Now he does. And here we are.

Also, while we're on the subject, look at the kind of players this team has targeted in free agency, waiver wire, and through the undrafted/NCAA route. They're very rarely the kinds of players this team actually needs, just the kinds of players this coaching staff likes.

 

[Icarium]

Many of the Pens former bottom six players do just fine for other teams. I wonder why that might be. Maybe it's all Mercury Retrograde's fault or something.

 

[pistolpete11]

And part of this is the last decade of selling draft picks catching up with the Penguins. Two ELC guys with good legs and the skill to put 30 points up would go a long way to upgrade over the waiver fodder playing in those spots. Need to get lucky on the scrap heap at this point.

This doesn't get brought up enough.

If this was 2016, DOC should be Tommy Kuhnhackl, but since we don't have anyone else, we're hoping he's Bryan Rust. He's not.

I've got an inkling this might be part of the reason why:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Many of the Pens former bottom six players do just fine for other teams. I wonder why that might be. Maybe it's all Mercury Retrograde's fault or something.

Just bad puck luck!

Much like all the goals this team scores that just don't go in. These are players that panned out... just not here. Still counts!

 

[HandshakeLine]

This doesn't get brought up enough.

If this was 2016, DOC should be Tommy Kuhnhackl, but since we don't have anyone else, we're hoping he's Bryan Rust. He's not.

I would also argue that the coaching staff willing themselves to believe he IS Bryan Rust despite evidence to the contrary is part of the problem. Really, a lot of this team's problems come down to the coaching staff and ownership suckering themselves into believing that the problems don't exist.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

@Pens x found it, I'm just reposting it because damn if it doesn't just sum up this team's coaching woes.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Also, while we're on the subject, look at the kind of players this team has targeted in free agency, waiver wire, and through the undrafted/NCAA route. They're very rarely the kinds of players this team actually needs, just the kinds of players this coaching staff likes.

This team seems to stay clear of any player with the term "dynamic" in his player profile. It's like they automatically assume these draft picks/prospects won't reach their ceilings, so might as well draft "safe" players so we can play them as the 12th or 13th forward.

And the few times they *do* draft for skill, it's usually someone who is so god-awful defensively (who also happens to be a defenseman) that they can't stick in the NHL because of how bad they are away from the puck.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Pillorying a guy for one random clip of a blank wipeboard would usually make me kinda roll my eyes. But for anyone who has watched a Penguins powerplay the last two years... that clip of Todddddddddddd doin' "work" sums up a lot of frustrations with how this team is being run -- no ideas... no will/want to change.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Pillorying a guy for one random clip of a blank whiteboard would usually make me kinda roll my eyes. But for anyone who has watched a Penguins powerplay the last two years... that clip of Todddddddddddd doin' "work" sums up a lot of frustrations with how this team is being run -- no ideas... no will/want to change.

Yeah, it's a little unfair, but man, if that isn't a sign of the end, I don't know what is. Team doesn't care, coaches can't coach/don't care, and there's no interest in fixing anything from ownership down.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Pillorying a guy for one random clip of a blank wipeboard would usually make me kinda roll my eyes. But for anyone who has watched a Penguins powerplay the last two years... that clip of Todddddddddddd doin' "work" sums up a lot of frustrations with how this team is being run -- no ideas... no will/want to change.

Reirden looks like the kid in high school who doesn't know the answer so he's trying to look at the other students' exam papers, but in this case he's screwed because he's the only one holding a white board.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah, it's a little unfair, but man, if that isn't a sign of the end, I don't know what is. Team doesn't care, coaches can't coach/don't care, and there's no interest in fixing anything from ownership down.

It's completely baffling that they haven't at least made a change, there. Sure... hold on to your precious Beantown HC because he did some great things going on a decade ago. I think it's idiotic to believe you've somehow outsmarted a tried and true rule of the road in this league but whatever... it seems like a pretty set in stone choice they won't back down from. But Todd Reirden? They're gonna die on THAT hill? OK.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean, the cynic in me says it's because TR is liked by both Sullivan and Sid, but man, someone needs to kick both in the balls.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean, the cynic in me says it's because TR is liked by both Sullivan and Sid, but man, someone needs to kick both in the balls.

I think at least some of it is the embarrassment of having to clean out a HC's staff what... twice? I realize that it's over multiple tenures but it's still one of those things that tacitly admits there is a problem/disconnect there. And we know how this team is about admitting there are problems that need addressed beyond "switch Rust and Rakell" or "put Sid and Malkin on separate powerplays."

 

[IcedCapp]

And part of this is the last decade of selling draft picks catching up with the Penguins. Two ELC guys with good legs and the skill to put 30 points up would go a long way to upgrade over the waiver fodder playing in those spots. Need to get lucky on the scrap heap at this point.

Yeah, but that's something I'm willing to accept (also something a lot of us said would happen eventually). But it's still possible to build a better bottom-6 *than this* through UFA/trades. I'm a big Dubas fan, but i really didn't like his work on the bottom-6 and in net.