Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Teh offseason! All your defense are belong to us

[Darren McCord]

I mean trading redundant players for assets. JR would regularly dump those guys for nothing (like the guys I mentioned as cap dumps) when he could have gotten decent assets for them.

Shero was much better at asset managment but he wasted a lot of sid and genos prime standing pat hoping something would change.

 

[Peat]

Also because this is in my mind...

There's a lot of "I wish Rutherford had done this philosophy" or "He should have done that philosophy". Hell, I do it sometimes too.

But at the end of the day the philosophies were far far less a problem than constantly making an absolute mess of whether a player would fit in and/or maanging to trade for a player shortly before they got major injury problems. That's the real cause of things. Maybe he'd have traded a guy for a 1st and prospect like Tampa did with Miller if his trades had had the same level of success.

It doesn't matter which read the quarterback picks if he always drops the ball as he throws it.

 

[Pancakes]

Also because this is in my mind...

There's a lot of "I wish Rutherford had done this philosophy" or "He should have done that philosophy". Hell, I do it sometimes too.

But at the end of the day the philosophies were far far less a problem than constantly making an absolute mess of whether a player would fit in and/or maanging to trade for a player shortly before they got major injury problems. That's the real cause of things. Maybe he'd have traded a guy for a 1st and prospect like Tampa did with Miller if his trades had had the same level of success.

It doesn't matter which read the quarterback picks if he always drops the ball as he throws it.

At the end of the day he got us two cups so whatever. I can forgive the rest. But I am glad he's gone, and we're better off for it.

I like Hextall's approach so far of adding when he can but without sacrificing major assets.

Will be interesting to see if that approach changes this year. Is he going to move our first this year since FSG seems intent on trying to win? Or is he going to tinker

 

[Pens x]

To add, on that redundant NHLer point, I really wish that was something JR would have done more than he did. I think the only times he did that were trading Bennett for a 3rd in 2016, Kessel for POJ in 2019 and Murray for a 2nd in 2020. I feel like there were opportunities to gain assets more when JR was here, but he'd rather sit on an asset until it was worthless over trying to get any value out of it.



The Oleksiak situation was all around egregious with this. He traded a 4th for Oleksiak, which was a fine gamble at the time. Oleksiak showed he was a solid regular, so you trade him back for literally the same pick you traded for him? The hell?

There were numerous trades that JR just completely mishandled when he was the Penguins GM. He messed it up badly with Oleksiak as I said already. He basically traded a 1st for Reaves, only to give him away as a cap dump. He gave up Cole as a cap dump when he had value as a rental. He used Sheary to pay to get out of a bad UFA signing. He gave up Hagelin, who ended up having the value of a 3rd as a rental, and ended up with Gudbranson, who he ended up trading for a 7th. It's just mismanaged assets after mismanaged assets.

Sullivan sent most of those guys packing because they dared to play physical. They weren’t unskilled smurfs, aka Sully’s vision. The coach made the trades worse.

 

[Rudy Russo]

Penguins fans celebrate.
Dominik Simon rejects pens invite to camp heads home to the Czech league.
Per the Sparta release, Simon, 28, said, “Pittsburgh offered me a camp, but while I was waiting I realized that I would actually like to be at home in Prague and in an environment that I know well. I’m glad that we agreed and I can play in Sparta. I feel very good here.”

 

[Gurglesons]

Also because this is in my mind...

There's a lot of "I wish Rutherford had done this philosophy" or "He should have done that philosophy". Hell, I do it sometimes too.

But at the end of the day the philosophies were far far less a problem than constantly making an absolute mess of whether a player would fit in and/or maanging to trade for a player shortly before they got major injury problems. That's the real cause of things. Maybe he'd have traded a guy for a 1st and prospect like Tampa did with Miller if his trades had had the same level of success.

It doesn't matter which read the quarterback picks if he always drops the ball as he throws it.

Yeah that’s what I was going to say. JR’s issue wasn’t “getting value” it was his actual definition of value and building a team.

I’d even argue his home run trades didn’t even build an identity.

Sullivan mostly did that. Which is why I still respect him despite some of the idiocy over the last 5 years versus Rutherford who every time he opens his mouth convinces me he is a clown who knows who to put in effective roles to make him look good.

 

[Peat]

At the end of the day he got us two cups so whatever. I can forgive the rest. But I am glad he's gone, and we're better off for it.

I like Hextall's approach so far of adding when he can but without sacrificing major assets.

Will be interesting to see if that approach changes this year. Is he going to move our first this year since FSG seems intent on trying to win? Or is he going to tinker

Well I'm certainly happy he didn't add anything to endeavours with awful luck/shaky foundations.

But I'll be reserving judgement. Being patient is nothing without recognising the moment you've been patient for. So far Rutherford's roster hasn't really given him much choice beyond be patient or be stupid, but we're getting into the part where he's got enough freedom that we can see a bit more Hextall's philosophy and judgement. And I do care a lot more about the latter.

Yeah that’s what I was going to say. JR’s issue wasn’t “getting value” it was his actual definition of value and building a team.

I’d even argue his home run trades didn’t even build an identity.

Sullivan mostly did that. Which is why I still respect him despite some of the idiocy over the last 5 years versus Rutherford who every time he opens his mouth convinces me he is a clown who knows who to put in effective roles to make him look good.

I was about to argue with you then... eh. Yeah. Maybe. Rutherford wasn't building the fastest team in the NHL until Sully entered the room. Daley and Hagelin were good adds to that, but they weren't defining, most of that came from the pieces already lying around. Credit for getting good pieces to add to in the place core and Shero's hidden treasure chest but yeah, fair point, he reinforced an identity rather than built it.

Then he correctly diagnosed the NHL would swing physical and did an absolutely appalling job of changing it, then decided to get faster but in doing so created a one trick pony of a team complete with probably the worst 3m contract the league has ever seen... fun times.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well I'm certainly happy he didn't add anything to endeavours with awful luck/shaky foundations.

But I'll be reserving judgement. Being patient is nothing without recognising the moment you've been patient for. So far Rutherford's roster hasn't really given him much choice beyond be patient or be stupid, but we're getting into the part where he's got enough freedom that we can see a bit more Hextall's philosophy and judgement. And I do care a lot more about the latter.



I was about to argue with you then... eh. Yeah. Maybe. Rutherford wasn't building the fastest team in the NHL until Sully entered the room. Daley and Hagelin were good adds to that, but they weren't defining, most of that came from the pieces already lying around. Credit for getting good pieces to add to in the place core and Shero's hidden treasure chest but yeah, fair point, he reinforced an identity rather than built it.

Then he correctly diagnosed the NHL would swing physical and did an absolutely appalling job of changing it, then decided to get faster but in doing so created a one trick pony of a team complete with probably the worst 3m contract the league has ever seen... fun times.

The frustrating part is the actual value we gave up in the trades is not too bad. It’s just he like built the team with what was around versus targeting what we needed.

Look at Tampa when they needed grit and size. They add Maroon and Goodrow who are big dickheads that can beat the shit out of people but still had skill to play minutes with Getzlaf, Thornton, and McDavid.

Then they add Coleman and Shattenkirk who fit their identity.

Just sucks what Rutherford did to this team tbh.

Alvin is doing the same scatterbrain approach in Vancouver with him right now.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

@AuroraBorealis - I'll try to reply to all your points later, but just on goals by periods and what not -

74-55 in P1 (14th for GF, 3rd for GA)
88-80 in P2 (17th for GF, t-11th for GA)
101-83 in P3 (11th for GF, 10th for GA)
6-4 in OT

Our win percentage when leading in the first period was .828 (11th in the league) and we had 24 wins from that position (12th in the league)

We won .914 of the games where we led in the 2nd (7th), which happened 32 times (11th)

We won .227 of the games where we were behind in the 1st (t-17th) which happened 5 times (t-19th).

We won .172 of the games where we were behind in the 2nd (13th), which happened 5 times (t-11th)

I mean something to note from that is that an awful lot of hockey games are effectively decided by who's leading at the end of the 1st. Florida are the only team who were above .5 for games won when trailing at the end of the 1st and .3 for games won when trailing at the end of the 2nd. You don't want to get behind, and it looks like Sully was preaching a locked in turn up early approach given how hard it was to score against us in the 1st period.

So yeah we spent more time leading games than trailing in games - top 10 for both - and maybe that plays into it. But that shouldn't be unusual territory. There is meat on the bone to be better at getting back into games.

And I think if we want to talk about how our speed and system are no longer as dominant as they were, comparing our fairly mild 2nd period performance with the way we'd crush teams on the long change in 16-17 is a fairly good indicator of what we already knew.

Quality stats. Appreciate you looking those up. Is that Frozenpool, NST or what?

Glad my memory isn't failing me completely. We locked it down pretty good in 1st periods. We weren't exceptional in any period though. It spanned from good to very good basically, which makes sense.

.914 when leading at any point in the 2nd period or at the end of them? Fundamental difference. Assuming the latter.

The .227 speaks to your point pretty well. There's still 40 minutes to recover and we couldn't do it even a quarter of the time. Room for growth.

One thing that concerns me a little this year will be our penalty count. I don't think it's a stretch to say that last season the refs took it extremely easy on us.
Was noticing a crazy amount of missed tripping/slashing calls on a regular basis. I don't feel like we deserved 2nd best in PIM/G at all. Something like 8th would have been more fair IMO.
Highly doubt they're gonna be as accommodating again. The PK is gonna get tested. The personnel may be worse now, or just perform worse.

Our speed's not gonna be as good as 16/17 for sure. When we succeeded last year a huge part of it was just mental error limitation. Smart pinches, clears, dump-ins when under pressure etc... That's gonna need to be the case again with all these old boys.

I guess our 1sts were a product of the pre-game speech with "playing the right way", and then the message erodes as the game progresses. It's also hardest to prevent goals against in the 3rd. Extra man situations, refs performing game management, and taking the foot off the gas with 2+ goal leads with barely any sand left in the hourglass.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

So Jake is making at least 8 million on his next contract.

I've always assumed we'd be giving him most of Carter's contract money when it expires.

That said, that was 6 years ago, when Crosby, Malkin and Letang were still all under 30, and it doesn't appear that there are any Guentzel or Rust caliber prospects at the moment (albeit, _Rust_ didn't look like a Rust-caliber prospect until suddenly he was...)

I think this is the best prospect pool we've had since Guentzel was brought up. I think one of the prospects we have right now will go on to have a Rust-like impact on the team. I'm not sure which of them it would be though.

I don't understand what the Penguins saw in Simon last year in 55 games to make them think "let's bring him back and let him have the chance of earning a contract".

Emphasis mine:

Regular season 5v5 advanced stats​

Data via Natural Stat Trick. The ranking is out of 17 forwards on the team who qualified by playing a minimum of 150 minutes.

Corsi For %: 57.84 (2nd)
Goals For %: 50.00 (12th)
xGF %: 58.01 (2nd)
Scoring Chance %: 55.64 (7th)
High Danger Scoring Chance %: 56.89 (5th)
5v5 on-ice shooting %: 6.49 (16th)
On-ice save %: 90.61 (14th)
Goals/60: 0.3
Assist/60: 0.7
Points/60: 1.0

What does this tell us? Simon was a great possession driver, but couldn’t create tangible offense. Stop me if you’ve heard that before. All process, no results, and it’s a results-oriented business.

 

[Pens x]

Penguins fans celebrate.
Dominik Simon rejects pens invite to camp heads home to the Czech league.
Per the Sparta release, Simon, 28, said, “Pittsburgh offered me a camp, but while I was waiting I realized that I would actually like to be at home in Prague and in an environment that I know well. I’m glad that we agreed and I can play in Sparta. I feel very good here.”

I thought you were kidding, but they actually did offer him a spot at camp. Why is this team so god damn infatuated with him? Thank god Simon decided to go back home.

Simon and ZAR were starters here, and now one is going to Europe while the other received a training camp invite. I guess the rest of the league saw what Hextall and Sully couldn’t.

Why would Hextall invite that turd to camp when he knows Sully can’t resist playing him?

Reason #76 why Sully should be gone. He can’t evaluate talent anymore. Shame on Hextall for enabling Sully’s stupidity.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Ruhwedel - Malkin - Archibald

Par for the course with Sully.

 

[Pens x]

Erod - still unsigned
Simon - went back to Europe
Boyle - unsigned
ZAR - PTO

Sully’s boys are not doing well this summer.

 

[Rudy Russo]

I thought you were kidding, but they actually did offer him a spot at camp. Why is this team so god damn infatuated with him? Thank god Simon decided to go back home.

Simon and ZAR were starters here, and now one is going to Europe while the other received a training camp invite. I guess the rest of the league saw what Hextall and Sully couldn’t.

Why would Hextall invite that turd to camp when he knows Sully can’t resist playing him?

Reason #76 why Sully should be gone. He can’t evaluate talent anymore. Shame on Hextall for enabling Sully’s stupidity.

I was shocked too about the pens offering a PTO contract to Simon. Hopefully one of their prospects has a great training camp and pre-season.

 

[Darren McCord]

So Jake is making at least 8 million on his next contract.

Yo might be able to get him into the 7's depending on if he dips and if you add term.

But I think Jake is gone after this contract to be honest unless Rust is moved. One of them will be gone in two years. Book it.

 

[Pens x]

I was shocked too about the pens offering a PTO contract to Simon. Hopefully one of their prospects has a great training camp and pre-season.

Are you really that surprised with dumb and dumber Sully/Hextall running the team?

In the end, Simon saved us from himself, not our clown coach and clown gm.

My condolences to @Dipsy Doodle. He must be devastated the savant Simon is taking his lack of talent to Europe, where he should have been playing for the last 2 years. It just shows you lazy and unintelligent Hextall really is.

 

[Peat]

Yo might be able to get him into the 7's depending on if he dips and if you add term.

But I think Jake is gone after this contract to be honest unless Rust is moved. One of them will be gone in two years. Book it.

Cap is meant to start galloping up at the point Jake is up. I think that gives us a good chance of keeping the top six intact if that's what we want then.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yo might be able to get him into the 7's depending on if he dips and if you add term.

But I think Jake is gone after this contract to be honest unless Rust is moved. One of them will be gone in two years. Book it.

Why? Jake should be a Penguin for life, unless we get a huge haul for him.

Again I remind people that Rakell is movable. Yes, we paid him. Yes, he's new. He can still be traded.

 

[Darren McCord]

Why? Jake should be a Penguin for life, unless we get a huge haul for him.

Again I remind people that Rakell is movable. Yes, we paid him. Yes, he's new. He can still be traded.

Ya I kind of forgot about Rakell. But think the Penguins are going to be looking to add a big UFA next offseason or maybe through a trade. So I. think one of Rakell, Rust or Jake will be gone to make room for that contract. Horvat makes a lot of sense for the pens.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ya I kind of forgot about Rakell. But think the Penguins are going to be looking to add a big UFA next offseason or maybe through a trade. So I. think one of Rakell, Rust or Jake will be gone to make room for that contract. Horvat makes a lot of sense for the pens.

Horvat? I don’t see it.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If we're talking fantasyland scenarios that aren't gonna happen just sit on your cap space and throw a bonkers contract at Matthews when he gets fed up with Toronto's bullshit and refuses to re-sign.

 

[Darren McCord]

Horvat? I don’t see it.

Why not? I just think they target a top 6 center if they do not plan on going for a rebuild.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

If we're talking fantasyland scenarios that aren't gonna happen just sit on your cap space and throw a bonkers contract at Matthews when he gets fed up with Toronto's bullshit and refuses to re-sign.

Or Drai.

 

[Gurglesons]

Why not? I just think they target a top 6 center if they do not plan on going for a rebuild.

I don’t see them moving Malkin out of the 2C role and Horvat gets a lot of production on the Powerplay.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Penguins fans celebrate.
Dominik Simon rejects pens invite to camp heads home to the Czech league.
Per the Sparta release, Simon, 28, said, “Pittsburgh offered me a camp, but while I was waiting I realized that I would actually like to be at home in Prague and in an environment that I know well. I’m glad that we agreed and I can play in Sparta. I feel very good here.”

Probably for the best at this stage of his career. He's likely in that category where even if he does get NHL contracts, it'll be 1-year deals near league minimum (or even 2-way deals) where he'll have to hope each offseason that someone else is interested in him.

This way he still gets to make a decent living, but does so at home.

Ya I kind of forgot about Rakell. But think the Penguins are going to be looking to add a big UFA next offseason or maybe through a trade. So I. think one of Rakell, Rust or Jake will be gone to make room for that contract. Horvat makes a lot of sense for the pens.

Do you mean Horvat's that "big UFA" add? Because he's not better than those guys (or at least not better by much over a guy like Rakell) and he's certainly not cheaper than them.