Post-Game Talk: Pens out loser the Sens

[Victor Z]

Dumping pucks in, per se, is not a problem. The next step after dumping the puck in is.... go and get the damn puck!

Even if the "system" (WHAT system?) incorporated the above fact, there's still the problem that the Pens are so weak, so soft, so timid, and so afraid of being hit. This makes puck retrieval rather unlikely most of the time.

The best explanation I've heard for the Pens' stationary, pass forever around the perimeter but don't shoot approach on the PP is that once they DO shoot then possession is normally lost because they aren't physically able to win a puck battle.... and down the ice goes the puck. Better to keep possession and inflate that all-important total of fake goals (xGF or whatever), than to risk actually getting a REAL goal.

I look forward to the Pens making the "xGF Playoffs" and excelling there, while other teams have to settle for merely making the real playoffs.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

We looked pretty good the 1st 1/2 of the game, then I had to remind myself that we were playing Ottawa, against a goalie with an 0.880 save percentage and were making him look like a Vezina winner.

Then came the part where we get confused and Ottawa dominates us. Predictable!
OT was just hilarious! Just needed the Benny Hill music!

I'm happy that Bunting scored. I actually think he may fit in well. Kind of reminds me of a Zucker in ways. I just hope he can play above a 4.5M contract, which means 25+ goals. I don't know if he can do that.

It would be hilarious if Dubas says he's finally done with his actual GM search and promotes Mike Sullivan. Who then elevates Reirden to HC. There's your nightmare-fuel before I head to bed.

Don't say stuff like that! I honestly would consider resigning from the team as a fan.

Hope you're right about Sully being fired. Hope you're wrong about Dubas refusing to pull the plug and continuing to tie this team to lame players with term. The only guy really worthwhile is Reinhart, and I have no idea why he'd come here, or how much the team would have to outbid others to land him.

As long as we pay him as a 30-35 goal scorer and not a 50 goals scorer. Though I agree, unless he gets a through the roof offer from us, he's not coming here. No longer do players want to come here for a chance at the cup.

 

[HandshakeLine]

As a self identified moron, what even is Sullivan's system?

I think it would be a fascinating question to ask Mike Sullivan to explain his own system to the public by pointing out what they do in game footage. For starters, I'm curious if he can even recognize that the system he says we play isn't in fact what actually play on the ice.

 

[Andy99]

We looked pretty good the 1st 1/2 of the game, then I had to remind myself that we were playing Ottawa, against a goalie with an 0.880 save percentage and were making him look like a Vezina winner.

Then came the part where we get confused and Ottawa dominates us. Predictable!
OT was just hilarious! Just needed the Benny Hill music!

I'm happy that Bunting scored. I actually think he may fit in well. Kind of reminds me of a Zucker in ways. I just hope he can play above a 4.5M contract, which means 25+ goals. I don't know if he can do that.


Don't say stuff like that! I honestly would consider resigning from the team as a fan.


As long as we pay him as a 30-35 goal scorer and not a 50 goals scorer. Though I agree, unless he gets a through the roof offer from us, he's not coming here. No longer do players want to come here for a chance at the cup.

We’ll have to severely overpay getting great players here in free agency…plus, they’re all older players anyway, 28+…we shouldn’t be wading into FA unless it’s a college FA or RFA who was not qualified…we should be focused on drafting great and making trades moving forward…

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

We looked pretty good the 1st 1/2 of the game, then I had to remind myself that we were playing Ottawa, against a goalie with an 0.880 save percentage and were making him look like a Vezina winner.

Then came the part where we get confused and Ottawa dominates us. Predictable!
OT was just hilarious! Just needed the Benny Hill music!

I'm happy that Bunting scored. I actually think he may fit in well. Kind of reminds me of a Zucker in ways. I just hope he can play above a 4.5M contract, which means 25+ goals. I don't know if he can do that.


Don't say stuff like that! I honestly would consider resigning from the team as a fan.


As long as we pay him as a 30-35 goal scorer and not a 50 goals scorer. Though I agree, unless he gets a through the roof offer from us, he's not coming here. No longer do players want to come here for a chance at the cup.

I'm not sure the Pens were ever a preferred destination for FAs, even when Sid/Geno were in their primes and the team was perennially in the Cup discussion.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Players never came here, people just bought that line because it felt better than admitting that nobody actually ranked this team that highly even during the B2B era.

 

[vodeni]

I really want Jeff Halpern to be the coach. I think he'd be a perfect fit for how Dubas thinks as well as maximizing the remaining star talent while still developing youthful potential. He's an excellent blend of analytics, on-ice coaching, and creative ideas.

anyone but low high game genius

 

[SEALBound]

This is why I initially LOVED Sullivan. There was accountability and adaptability. Jesse is 100% spot on with the 16-17 Cups and Sullivan's willingness to make changes. Then all of a sudden...poof...it stopped and we've been on the downward slide ever since.

Translation: he a fraud.

I don't think he's a fraud, I think it's just that his time with the Penguins has expired. Happens with 100% of NHL coaches.

Firing him doesn't tell the NHL world that he's a bad coach. There's a difference between being a bad coach and the wrong coach. He's the wrong coach for this team now and forever more. There is not going back to the Sullivan that won B2B.

 

[deakka]

Bunting the poor bastard didn't get the memo that the team has quit. He even looked happy and celebrated when he scored. The rest of the players were like "come on man. Dont make us play OT"

 

[Slaaapshuter]

I don't think he's getting fired. I refuse to get my hopes up about it because it will just make me angry if he's still behind the bench next year.

Hell if the team starts off really bad next year I'm *still* not convinced they won't just blame it on age and say it's not his fault lol.

I mean they traded Guentzel, before that they were of course killing the league and a shoe in for the playoffs. Dubas will volutarily fall on that knife himself before anything is said about Sullivan.

Next year? Well they traded Guentzel, what is Sullivan suppose to do?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sullivan and Tomlin are very similar in most ways.

Good motivators. Good with the room. Utter shite with Xs and Os. Has to be the smartest guy in the room. Stubborn to the point of comedy.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

Sullivan and Tomlin are very similar in most ways.

Good motivators. Good with the room. Utter shite with Xs and Os. Has to be the smartest guy in the room. Stubborn to the point of comedy.

Must be a Mike thing. No offense to any Mikes here.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This is why I initially LOVED Sullivan. There was accountability and adaptability. Jesse is 100% spot on with the 16-17 Cups and Sullivan's willingness to make changes. Then all of a sudden...poof...it stopped and we've been on the downward slide ever since.

I don't think he's a fraud, I think it's just that his time with the Penguins has expired. Happens with 100% of NHL coaches.

Firing him doesn't tell the NHL world that he's a bad coach. There's a difference between being a bad coach and the wrong coach. He's the wrong coach for this team now and forever more. There is not going back to the Sullivan that won B2B.

We have far more evidence for Sullivan being a stubborn idiot who lucked into winning than we have for him as a genius who just happens to keep making bad mistakes for 8 years because of bad luck.

At this point I am very much in doubt that he had any real hand in the original success of this team just because we literally haven't seen any evidence of it since.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Mike Sullivan's coaching career is a dumpster fire outside of two (very important) years.

 

[SEALBound]

We have far more evidence for Sullivan being a stubborn idiot who lucked into winning than we have for him as a genius who just happens to keep making bad mistakes for 8 years because of bad luck.

At this point I am very much in doubt that he had any real hand in the original success of this team just because we literally haven't seen any evidence of it since.

This is likely true. Bylsma wasn't a great coach but he took a high performing team and lightly touched them and they won. Sullivan basically did the same thing.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We have far more evidence for Sullivan being a stubborn idiot who lucked into winning than we have for him as a genius who just happens to keep making bad mistakes for 8 years because of bad luck.

At this point I am very much in doubt that he had any real hand in the original success of this team just because we literally haven't seen any evidence of it since.

This is the thing. People are basing him being a "good coach" on 2 seasons. But Sullivan has been coaching in the NHL for more than 2 seasons and in each of those other seasons he's either missed the playoffs entirely or been ousted in round 1.

Also, "good coaches" continually adapt. Coaches like Bylsma (ie. flashes in the pan) have one miracle stretch where they seem to push all the right buttons, but over time struggle to adapt when what they did isn't working anymore. Sullivan's doing exactly that. He's failing to adapt over the past 5-ish years of failures. That's not the hallmark of a "good coach".

 

[Fogel]

This is where the eye test is so important. Advanced stats may one day cover everything but until then the Eye is important.

It isn't an either or. Scouts and analytics should be working together. There is no reason teams shouldn't be investing heavily on both scouts and analysts; there is no cap on the operations side of things (other than fattening the bottom line).

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

We’ll have to severely overpay getting great players here in free agency…plus, they’re all older players anyway, 28+…we shouldn’t be wading into FA unless it’s a college FA or RFA who was not qualified…we should be focused on drafting great and making trades moving forward…

That is true. That's the UFA conundrum. Everybody is 28+ looking for pretty much their last contract.

I'm not sure the Pens were ever a preferred destination for FAs, even when Sid/Geno were in their primes and the team was perennially in the Cup discussion.

True. I remember Panarin spurning us for just that reason. They all want to go to the big cities.

Maybe I should say that we were a "more preferred destination" than we are today. I mean nobody really wants to go to a rebuilding team (or one on the cusp), and no matter how you spin it (last years of Crosby, etc), after next year, we are pretty much officially in full rebuild.

One more thing I forgot to mention....
Loved Ludvig's hit!

He just has to learn when and when not to drop the gloves. Right it seems like he drops his gloves at every opportunity as he feels that's what he is supposed to do.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Mike Sullivan's coaching career is a dumpster fire outside of two (very important) years.

Odd that he and JR benefitted so much from those back to backs, because they both had the same timespan of clarity and usefulness.

Both have been dogshit pretty much every second of their careers otherwise.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is the thing. People are basing him being a "good coach" on 2 seasons. But Sullivan has been coaching in the NHL for more than 2 seasons and in each of those other seasons he's either missed the playoffs entirely or been ousted in round 1.

Also, "good coaches" continually adapt. Coaches like Bylsma (ie. flashes in the pan) have one miracle stretch where they seem to push all the right buttons, but over time struggle to adapt when what they did isn't working anymore. Sullivan's doing exactly that. He's failing to adapt over the past 5-ish years of failures. That's not the hallmark of a "good coach".

I for one can not wait to see him crash and burn.

It's going to be hilarious if he goes to the Devils. Erik Haula will be playing over Bratt on L1 in no time.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This is the thing. People are basing him being a "good coach" on 2 seasons. But Sullivan has been coaching in the NHL for more than 2 seasons and in each of those other seasons he's either missed the playoffs entirely or been ousted in round 1.

Also, "good coaches" continually adapt. Coaches like Bylsma (ie. flashes in the pan) have one miracle stretch where they seem to push all the right buttons, but over time struggle to adapt when what they did isn't working anymore. Sullivan's doing exactly that. He's failing to adapt over the past 5-ish years of failures. That's not the hallmark of a "good coach".

I just want to know what technical adjustments Mike Sullivan made that were smart and could have led to sustained success if it wasn’t for bad puck luck or whatever the excuse du jour is.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Odd that he and JR benefitted so much from those back to backs, because they both had the same timespan of clarity and usefulness.

Both have been dogshit pretty much every second of their careers otherwise.

I mean... it's almost as if Sid Crosby and (even injured) Geno were super exceptional players right around the prime of their careers or something. Oh and that Phil Kessel guy. And a goaltender who flashed in the pan RIGHT when the team needed him to.

But nah the guy modeling suits with a stopwatch behind the bench was the reason. Much like when people wanna cite like Mike Rupp and Rob Scuderi as the reasons the team won the first Cup while Sid/G put up near-historic playoff numbers.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean... it's almost as if Sid Crosby and (even injured) Geno are super exceptional players right around the prime of their careers or something. Oh and that Phil Kessel guy. And a goaltender who flashed in the pan RIGHT when the team needed him to.

But nah the guy modeling suits with a stopwatch behind the bench was the reason. Much like when people wanna cite like Mike Rupp and Rob Scuderi as the reasons the team won the first Cup while Sid/G put up near-historic playoff numbers.

Touching back on Phil; holy shit did this team land him at the exact right time. Dude had a massive chip on his shoulder and his goal aligned with the team's just long enough to achieve what they did, then everything went back to slop.

Stars really aligned for those couple of years in there. JR managing to hit homerun after homerun without stopping his "throw shit at the wall and hope it sticks" style. Sullivan's "hey guys, skate fast" genius replacing Johnston's 60min of prevent defense. Phil finding it in himself to care about winning at just the perfect time. Wild ride, those back to backs.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I for one can not wait to see him crash and burn.

It's going to be hilarious if he goes to the Devils. Erik Haula will be playing over Bratt on L1 in no time.

It's going to be glorious. When (if) he's fired and a new team hires him, I can't wait to see the shocked Pikachu faces of the new team's fanbase when the results don't line up with his reputation as a top tier coach, similar to how Buffalo fans (and casual NHL fans) were shocked when Buffalo didn't match the Pens' success when they landed Bylsma.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

It isn't an either or. Scouts and analytics should be working together. There is no reason teams shouldn't be investing heavily on both scouts and analysts; there is no cap on the operations side of things (other than fattening the bottom line).

This was not an attack on analytics.