Post-Game Talk: Pens/Devils: You already know how it goes

[WayneSid9987]

Penguins are a mess after another ugly loss to Devils

Here’s Adam Gretz’s take....lack of depth scoring...and no, he does not praise our fourth line, lol...

If thats the thought process of the forward lines, Sully is doing this wrong.
Especially the parts of putting Jake and Phil with #15 JUST to get #15 going and putting Rust with Sid just to try and get him going.

If Sid and Geno are all you've got 5on5. Surround them with the best supporting cast you've got to maximize their output and work thru your options to get the Sheahan's and Rust's going.

-cement Rust in the bottom 6
-let a Sprong take a spin with the big boys
-let Phil take a spin with Sid on a regular shift
-cycle thru the Wilkes options to try and get the bottom 6 going

Ex:

Jake-Sid-Phil
Hags-G-Sprong
Rust/Simon-Sheahan-Horny
Rust/Simon-Cullen-Angello/Haggerty/Lafferty/ZAR/Wilson

I'd even accept placing Rust on G's LW atm. Just anywhere thats NOT on Sid's RW.

 

[EightyOne]

If thats the thought process of the forward lines, Sully is doing this wrong.
Especially the parts of putting Jake and Phil with #15 JUST to get #15 going and putting Rust with Sid just to try and get him going.

If Sid and Geno are all you've got 5on5. Surround them with the best supporting cast you've got to maximize their output and work thru your options to get the Sheahan's and Rust's going.

-cement Rust in the bottom 6
-let a Sprong take a spin with the big boys
-let Phil take a spin with Sid on a regular shift
-cycle thru the Wilkes options to try and get the bottom 6 going

Ex:

Jake-Sid-Phil
Hags-G-Sprong
Rust/Simon-Sheahan-Horny
Rust/Simon/ZAR/Wilson-Cullen-Angello/Haggerty/Lafferty

For me, i think ZAR/Wilson are too much or the same thing. Get anyone i have on RW ^ to give a more offensive touch potentially.

I'd even accept placing Rust on G's LW atm. Just anywhere thats NOT on Sid's RW.

I hate the team being reduced to two lines...But..at least that would force the opponent to shutdown those two lines.

As it is, the Pens are shutting down all four lines for the opponents.

 

[WayneSid9987]

On the D side, i'd simply go to your best skating option but this time do the insulate JJ/split 8/58 thing they've been doing. Last time they didn't do that.

Last time was something like:
8-58
50-6
73-2

This time:
73-58
8-50/6
50/6-2

or

50-58
8-73/6
73/6-2

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If thats the thought process of the forward lines, Sully is doing this wrong.
Especially the parts of putting Jake and Phil with #15 JUST to get #15 going and putting Rust with Sid just to try and get him going.

If Sid and Geno are all you've got 5on5. Surround them with the best supporting cast you've got to maximize their output and work thru your options to get the Sheahan's and Rust's going.

-cement Rust in the bottom 6
-let a Sprong take a spin with the big boys
-let Phil take a spin with Sid on a regular shift
-cycle thru the Wilkes options to try and get the bottom 6 going

Ex:

Jake-Sid-Phil
Hags-G-Sprong
Rust/Simon-Sheahan-Horny
Rust/Simon-Cullen-Angello/Haggerty/Lafferty/ZAR/Wilson

I'd even accept placing Rust on G's LW atm. Just anywhere thats NOT on Sid's RW.

Yeah, Sully's so fixated on trying to get all four lines going, he's missing the fact that none of the lines are going because of it.

Stack the top two lines, then just hope the bottom two lines can play well enough defensively and chip in every dozen games like they're currently doing. Right now, at least, that would be better than all four lines looking like they can't do a thing without a super-human effort by one of the elite guys.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

But I heard ZAR and some dude named Wilson are great at hustle effectively.

Why aren't we scoring you guise? :/

*sad face*

 

[billybudd]

I just don't understand playing Wilson. All off-season we heard the organization talk about wanting to improve the bottom six, to make the lines more of a threat to score. And yet they're starting to build the 4th line into the exact thing they claimed to want to shift away from (ie. no offensive threat whatsoever pluggers).

It's like everything they said they want to do, they've just decided to do the opposite.

I get that they might think Cullen can get his **** together and that Aston-Reese may have offensive upside. I think anyone waiting for a 42 year old Cullen and an Aston-Reese who was eating through a straw in the offseason to click for 20 or so goals on a single season will be waiting forever, but they're not players who it would be inconceivable that you could get depth scoring from them in some configuration in a bottom six role.

Wilson, I don't understand. He is what he is, and what he is, like you say, is the type of guy that Rutherford said he doesn't want on the fourth line during his very first press conference after he was hired. There's just no reason for him to be on the team.

 

[Peat]

I stopped watching after the 2nd NJ goal and mentally, I've gone from "There may be more" to "No, we just need more".

And it wasn't that we were outworked or outsystemed particularly. We were just outtalented. Maybe outconfidenced too tbf. No particular interest in harping on about where in particular it was or the fixes except this...

The difference between our points totals in the latter half of 2017 when with Schultz and when without was absurd. I repeat this fact a lot because its horribly relevant. The team gets in trouble when the puck doesn't move quickly enough. Arguably we should be more forgiving due to his but it comes down to results and we need some.

 

[Burn]

Anyone else sick of the offensive zone rim on the PP. With every player on their off wing it means picking up the puck on the back hand.

It takes too long pick it up, find a play and actually make it.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

But I heard ZAR and some dude named Wilson are great at hustle effectively.

Why aren't we scoring you guise? :/

*sad face*

They are doing their job. They may not score but they're getting zone time and keeping it away from our net and shitty D. As a result, the HDCA's are coming down and the team is playing with more structure. It's a step up from what the 4th line was doing before they got here, so I'm not gonna complain.

My gripe is with guys like Sheahan, Rust and Hagelin...at least when it comes to forwards. They've been a joke offensively.

 

[WayneSid9987]

They are doing their job. They may not score but they're getting zone time and keeping it away from our net and ****ty D. As a result, the HDCA's are coming down and the team is playing with more structure. It's a step up from what the 4th line was doing before they got here, so I'm not gonna complain.

My gripe is with guys like Sheahan, Rust and Hagelin...at least when it comes to forwards. They've been a joke offensively.

Yea, i don't have a massive problem with it atm other then i'd like to either a) have 1 of ZAR/Wilson(not both) + an Angello/Haggerty/Lafferty or b) get Sprong into the top 6 which drops a Rust/Simon or Horny down to it.

I'd also tinker with Rust in for Hags job on G's LW which gives the bottom 6 a different look with Hags in the mix.

In terms of a doable lineup atm:

Jake-Sid-Phil
Hags-G-Sprong
Simon/Rust-Sheahan-Horny
ZARORWilson-Cullen-Rust/Simon

Is what i'd try.
I suppose i could settle for simply flipping Sid and Sheahan's wingers at minimum(from last nights lines) but it'd be really nice to atleast try that G-Sprong combo...

Back end, i continue to insulate JJ/split 8-58 but switch out 3 for 50:

JJ-Tang
Dumo-Rig/Riiko
Riiko/Rig-Ruh

or keep the top 2 pairs the same:

JJ-Tang
Dumo-Ruh
Riiko-Rig

 

[Son Goku]

On a positive note I think Cullen looked pretty good tonight.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

They are doing their job.

Exactly.

It's just that their job isn't worth doing, if that's all their job is. What you described is something that adheres to every hockey player.

Them being employed on the ice together is nothing more than a waste of good ice time, which could've been better spent trying to win the game.

I don't want to watch plugs like ZAR and some dude named Wilson being on the ice contributing nothing over players who potentially could.

You'll get no argument from me that we should fire Sheahan into the sun, and the same goes for Rust and Hagelin as well if things don't change. Putting in ZAR and some dude named Wilson on top of the above mentioned ineptitude is simply Pejorative Slured.

Why we no score? :/

(no personal rant against you, just becoming more unhinged)

 

[Son Goku]

So do you think a traddr happens today

 

[Peat]

Exactly.

It's just that their job isn't worth doing, if that's all their job is. What you described is something that adheres to every hockey player.

This. I get it stems the bleeding but we need more.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

They are doing their job. They may not score but they're getting zone time and keeping it away from our net and ****ty D. As a result, the HDCA's are coming down and the team is playing with more structure. It's a step up from what the 4th line was doing before they got here, so I'm not gonna complain.

My gripe is with guys like Sheahan, Rust and Hagelin...at least when it comes to forwards. They've been a joke offensively.

They are going to get caved in soon. ZAR can’t win a board battle to save his life. 2-3 times yesterday I saw him get completely owned on the boards, only to have Cullen or a pinching D come rescue him at the last minute as he was having the puck taken off him.

Then you have ZAR and Wilson with their slow feet trying to cover circle to point in their own end.... good luck with that. It will be reminiscent of Adams/Glass and Kuhn/Rowney once teams get more film on them and scout this obvious weakness.

But I’m sure we will be told they are doing awesome because they will be blocking shots all night.

 

[Icarium]

For supposedly such a talented team it sure is weird not to have a single player in the top 50 in shots right now. Geno has barely more than 2 shots per game. Half the time it seems they have no plan whatsoever what to do in the offensive zone. If they don't score off the rush they are lost and rely on lucky bounces which have been in short supply lately. This is simply unacceptable. Playing Jake and Phil with Sheahan is just so weird. What other team doesn't play their best wingers with their star centres? Not that Jake has played well this season but still.

I can understand defensive woes but after the Canadian road trip I thought at least we had this offence thing figured out. I don't expect as many goals as they scored on that trip but at least some consistency, We saw it against the Isles, we didn't get the bounces, something happened and the team has looked from bad to mediocre ever since.

Remember when we could come from behind and win quite often? Sure doesn't look that way this season.

 

[Coastal Kev]

They are going to get caved in soon. ZAR can’t win a board battle to save his life. 2-3 times yesterday I saw him get completely owned on the boards, only to have Cullen or a pinching D come rescue him at the last minute as he was having the puck taken off him.

Then you have ZAR and Wilson with their slow feet trying to cover circle to point in their own end.... good luck with that. It will be reminiscent of Adams/Glass and Kuhn/Rowney once teams get more film on them and scout this obvious weakness.

But I’m sure we will be told they are doing awesome because they will be blocking shots all night.

What's their identity as a team right now??? To me, it's a bastardized version of the DB/MJ years 2012-2015 only now with Sid, Geno and Letang that much older.

 

[TheGuiminator]

Honestly at this point, I'm not against the idea of firing Sully and hire a coach like Quenneville. Sully has been on panic mode for the last month : playing hot potatoe with the lines and making questionnable decisions behind the bench.

As long as we have Crosby/Malkin in the team, we need to go all in every year and try to win those Cups. They're arguably the 2 best centers in the league (behind Mcdavid). I think there's a legit 3-4 years left before Sid/Geno start really slowing down, so take advantage of that and retool !

 

[shoeshine boy]

On a positive note I think Cullen looked pretty good tonight.

except that he keeps getting tossed out of the faceoff circle and faceoffs are 60% of the reason we brought him back.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

Man @Peat is so right about Schultz. The transition game is all jacked up at this point. No flow or very little at all. The defense, well that's just another story all unto it's own.

Not sure why we bother thinking Sully is going to play Sprong. He isn't. At least certainly not with Geno or Sid.

DeSmith looked kind meh last night especially on the first goal.

Letang had some of his normal gaffes

Maatta needs to go, but that won't happen.

Rikk needs to play but sits for Chad...I get the RHD argument but man...

Rig has his moments. Consistency is his biggest issue IMO.

JJ hasn't been horribly bad with Letang. By far the only guy on the team with a physical prescience.

Trades you would think are impending, but I'm not so sure of that. I'm also not so sure the answer lies in WBS for our bottom 6, but what choice do we have at this point?

A big change needs to happen perhaps, but I think GMJR is going to make a small move if any.

 

[Rossi Rat]

On a lighter note, Taylor Hall is awesome. Easily saw what makes him an MVP last night.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Honestly at this point, I'm not against the idea of firing Sully and hire a coach like Quenneville. Sully has been on panic mode for the last month : playing hot potatoe with the lines and making questionnable decisions behind the bench.

As long as we have Crosby/Malkin in the team, we need to go all in every year and try to win those Cups. They're arguably the 2 best centers in the league (behind Mcdavid). I think there's a legit 3-4 years left before Sid/Geno start really slowing down, so take advantage of that and retool !

As much as Sully was the coach we needed for 15 thru 17, he might not be the coach needed for 18 and beyond. That's the way it goes in hockey. It's not football, coaches in hockey really only coach one end of the ice 90% of the time. The bulk of their job is lineup management and keeping the boys motivated. If you muck those two up......it's time to go.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yea, i don't have a massive problem with it atm other then i'd like to either a) have 1 of ZAR/Wilson(not both) + an Angello/Haggerty/Lafferty or b) get Sprong into the top 6 which drops a Rust/Simon or Horny down to it.

I'd also tinker with Rust in for Hags job on G's LW which gives the bottom 6 a different look with Hags in the mix.

In terms of a doable lineup atm:

Jake-Sid-Phil
Hags-G-Sprong
Simon/Rust-Sheahan-Horny
ZARORWilson-Cullen-Rust/Simon

Is what i'd try.
I suppose i could settle for simply flipping Sid and Sheahan's wingers at minimum(from last nights lines) but it'd be really nice to atleast try that G-Sprong combo...

Back end, i continue to insulate JJ/split 8-58 but switch out 3 for 50:

JJ-Tang
Dumo-Rig/Riiko
Riiko/Rig-Ruh

or keep the top 2 pairs the same:

JJ-Tang
Dumo-Ruh
Riiko-Rig

I got no problem with any of those lines, save for Hagelin's spot. At some point you have to produce as a top 6, regardless of how good you are in other aspects all over the ice. He's becoming a liability for Geno. How many 10-bell chances the last 3 games for him? 6? More? I'm tired of watching him f*** up. It's costing us standings points.

I'm a bit bummed that Haggerty's struggling in Wilkes. Seems like he'll never get a chance here. Curious how he'd do. Would be happy to sub Sheahan out for him, if Riley's gonna be this garbage.

As for Sprong and Rust, I suspect they're not long for this team. Rutherford was particularly irate with Rust in his radio interview. He's losing his patience and might do something reactionary today or in the following days. And if it's not him, I'm ready for Maatta and Sheahan to go.

If Olli will continue to play like this, then Riikola is better in almost every aspect at 1/4 the cap hit. Faster, stronger, more confident, more dangerous and more reliable. He's got the highest on-ice SV% of any of our defensemen. .945 I believe? Say what you will about his zone clearances/breakout passes and neutral zone play. He does NOT give the opposition free backdoor opportunities, breakaways and cheap goals due to shabby coverage. He's boxing out, shadowing his check and showing great desperation in scramble plays in front of our goalies. He's keeping it out of the net. Besides, he's got offensive upside that is still developing. Gotten close the last few games. If Sullivan is that determined to keep him out of the line-up, then I'm ready for Jim to trade Olli and forcibly make the space.

I thought @Honour Over Glory had a brilliant idea. Brandon Saad. Local boy. In his prime. Cross-conference team, so no issues there. Manageable cap hit. He can net you 45 points and give you an honest defensive effort, while hardly ever taking PIM's. He's not working out in Chicago, so I think it'd be a worthy gamble. I feel like he could really mesh well with Malkin.

I'd love to be able to to say that we got insane forward depth and don't need to bolster the LW, but apparently we do? 2 or fewer goals in 7 of 16 games. This team is a paper tiger as constructed.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Joel Q. step on down you're the next contestant in Pens change coaches and win a cup...

 

[ronduguayshair]

I can’t tell if the people here are more upset with JR and the the makeup of the bottom six and four or Sullivan and staff’s deployment of this lineup.

Honestly I think you have to pick a side. I feel like Sullivan is doing the best he can with this roster. This might come as a shock to some people here but the coaches are intelligent hockey finds. Some of the players not so much. Too many hope passes and inconsistent coverage in the d zone.

This is on the players not the coaching. You can’t fire a coach who’s won two of three years he has been coach. You know how insane that would be? Have you considered he would go to Philly?

Everyone needs to be patient. It’s november and we have some injuries. Relax. Maybe trade a complementary player or two for a first pass dman or a wing that’s better on the forecheck. Try to get the team’s attention (not sure why this team always loses its focus).

Only an amateur organization would make coaching changes at this point.