Post-Game Talk: Pens/Devils: A Penguins 7 day trip to a warm place in hell

[Empoleon8771]

Sure, let's see it for a few games. I'm fine with that if it's the right thing now, but it has no long term sustainability because JJ is not a top pairing defender and will get exposed.

Nice to know you can tell the future. Care to share tomorrow's lottery numbers?

I mean, come on. Stop talking in absolutes as if you can tell the future. That pair has long term sustainability as long as Letang is playing like a Norris caliber defenseman, The Penguins have had way worse than Johnson on their top pair in the past, and it has never caused them problems.

Do people forget what kind of defensemen the Penguins had as their top pair LD with Letang before Dumoulin? Outside of Martin for some stretches, it's mostly guys like Eaton, Scuderi and a declined Orpik and Ehrhoff. Letang has been in Norris conversations multiple times with worse D partners than Johnson, so I don't see how Johnson is suddenly going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

When Letang plays 25+ minutes a night, JJ has to play more.

Johnson would be getting at most the same ES TOI/game as Dumoulin got on the top pair role. Dumoulin is at about 18 minutes a night at ES on the year so far, Johnson has been at about 15:45. It's really not a huge difference. If the minute difference is such a big deal, just give Dumoulin a couple of extra shifts with Letang.

Do you really think that's a good idea?

If Letang is playing well and Dumoulin is anchoring the second pair, 100% yes. Letang is playing well enough where Johnson is perfectly fine on the top pair. If Letang stops playing well, that changes things. But as it is right now, Letang is playing at a Norris caliber level. You can put a mediocre minute eating defenseman like Johnson along a guy playing at Letang's level and have it be a successful pair, based solely on Letang playing well.

Edit: just to further emphasize this point, here are Letang's most common D partners in every year since he became a top pair D:

2010-2011: Orpik with 700 minutes, Martin with 240 minutes, Lovejoy with 100 minutes, no one else over 100 minutes
2011-2012: Orpik with 345 minutes, Martin with 340 minutes, no one else over 100 minutes
2013: Niskanen with 220 minutes, Orpik with 115 minutes, Eaton with 85 minutes, no one else above 75
2014: Maatta with 220 minutes, Scuderi with 200 minutes (in 15 games), Niskanen with 120 minutes, no one else at 100 minutes.

 

[Andy99]

Joel Quenville just fired by the Hawks...let’s get him pronto! I’m serious....this type of thing needs to happen here if they want to put themselves in Cup contention....Sully’s expiration date has arrived....

 

[vikingGoalie]

MAF has gotten plenty of respect from Pens fans, and I recall many times when he was playing like total ass the crowd would cheer his name to pick him up.

He’s the last guy we should ever be talking about needing respect from the fans.

That doesn’t change the reality that he was a flakey goalie and he once again flaked out in the cup this past June, after playing so well until then. It’s just who he is and it’s very unlikely to change given he’s like 32 yrs old.

Agree on everything but the bolded, i won't bother doing a detailed why of it. But the caps took advantage of Fleury's play style. Fleury was playing very aggressively all playoffs long, His defense was able to take the pass and box out players from crashing the crease. Against the caps the vegas defense was out manned and outplayed. When your goalie is a foot out of the crease and taking the high danger chance shot and the pass goes through to the far side low for a one timer that is not flaking out, and while that was not ALL the goals scored upon vegas there were enough of them. Those and a guy just working his way through the entire defense and scoring from 2 feet away.
I think Fleury *did* get a bit jumpy against the caps, and I think it was because they went down 0-2 and he was starting to think he had to play shot AND pass because the caps just had a lot more star power and they were clicking (and lucky) that did result in Fleury not playing as well as he did previously. I just don't think an islander meltdown (flaking out) or bad angle shots from the Habs going in is quite the same as what we saw out of Fleury against the Caps last year.

But yes Fleury got plenty of respect from the fans, and I think Murray really doesn't get enough.
If the fans all started chanting "MURRAY" like they did for fleury it might actually pick him up and get him going.

playoff save percentage for Fleury
2014/15: .927
2015/16: .875 <--- asterik here as this was just 1 start and it was an impossible situation
2016/17: .924
2017/18: .927
average CAREER including some early debacles. .911
average since 2014/15 (using last 3 meaningful playoff seasons he played in): .925 (.926 if you round .9258 up)

playoff save percentage for Murray
2015/16: .923
2016/17: .937
2017/18 .908
average: .923

Only point here is I think Fleury's flaking in the playoffs from years ago is not as relevant to his current play as the last 3 meaningful playoff seasons.
I think those that watched him fall apart back against flyers/islanders/habs all have PTSD or something, he has been quite a bit better since he got the shrink and we tossed Blysma out.

I know some here will think I'm saying that we made the wrong choice, I'm not. Murray's struggles were all in the future and we 100% made the right choice at the time. I'm merely pointing this out that before people start doing the Murray is a playoff god and Fleury always flakes out in the playoffs and did it again last june that you should look at the stats, and also look at how they get scored on. I'm more worried about Penguins hockey. Fleury left on good terms but he's gone.
I am starting to worry about Murray though. Come Janurary if he is sub 90% we are moving into we need to find another goalie territory. DeSmith *might* be a full time NHL starter but that is a huge unknown. I like how DeSmith moves in the crease and how he plays quite a bit, that said. The best games from Murray *THIS* season were the best games a penguins goal tender has had this season. I'd greatly prefer Murray to just find his game again.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Sprong has great IQ. IMO his positioning is one his best traits. I think his problems are purely confidence and adjustment related.

Imo he’s a step slow mentally. Everyone his shots get blocked. This wasn’t the case before this season. Seems he’s thinking too much out there.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Imo he’s a step slow mentally. Everyone his shots get blocked. This wasn’t the case before this season. Seems he’s thinking too much out there.

wouldn't you if you only get 6 minutes in a game and any mistake you make likely means it's your last shift for the game?

 

[Shady Machine]

Nice to know you can tell the future. Care to share tomorrow's lottery numbers?

I mean, come on. Stop talking in absolutes as if you can tell the future. That pair has long term sustainability as long as Letang is playing like a Norris caliber defenseman, The Penguins have had way worse than Johnson on their top pair in the past, and it has never caused them problems.

Do people forget what kind of defensemen the Penguins had as their top pair LD with Letang before Dumoulin? Outside of Martin for some stretches, it's mostly guys like Eaton, Scuderi and a declined Orpik and Ehrhoff. Letang has been in Norris conversations multiple times with worse D partners than Johnson, so I don't see how Johnson is suddenly going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.



Johnson would be getting at most the same ES TOI/game as Dumoulin got on the top pair role. Dumoulin is at about 18 minutes a night at ES on the year so far, Johnson has been at about 15:45. It's really not a huge difference. If the minute difference is such a big deal, just give Dumoulin a couple of extra shifts with Letang.



If Letang is playing well and Dumoulin is anchoring the second pair, 100% yes. Letang is playing well enough where Johnson is perfectly fine on the top pair because we currently have a beter optio. If Letang stops playing well, that changes things. But as it is right now, Letang is playing at a Norris caliber level. You can put a mediocre minute eating defenseman like Johnson along a guy playing at Letang's level and have it be a successful pair, based solely on Letang playing well.

Okay. Is there anything in Johnson's recent career history (last 5 years) to suggest he can be a top pairing defenseman even with a partner as talented as Letang?

I'm not just blindly saying it won't work, I'm using Johnson's performance here in 10 games + his track record in Columbus and LA. Even when he was a top pairing guy, it's fair to question whether he belonged there in the first place.

I have no interest in playing Letang with the Eaton, Scuderi, and declining Orpik's and Ehrhoffs. Those teams didn't do jack shit in the playoffs. Let Dumo-Letang be your top pair and figure the rest of it out. Don't water down your top pair to make your 2nd pair less sucky. Make a trade if the mix isn't right but don't hinder Letang's best start to a season with Jack Johnson. Just not worth it for Letang or the team IMO.

I get your perspective, but I don't think the benefit of Dumo on 2nd pair outweighs the negative of JJ on the top pair. That said, I'm open to see it for a few games since something needs to change this losing skid.

 

[MrBurghundy]

I'd love to see this team try to trap it up for a game or two, and stop defensemen pinching all the time. Try to force turnovers in the neutral zone and attack off that.

The defense tends to be ok when we aren't giving up odd man rushes every 2 minutes, and the forwards aren't flying the zone as soon as a teammate simply touches the puck.

We aren't the fastest team in the league anymore, and we need to stop playing like we are.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Okay. Is there anything in Johnson's recent career history (last 5 years) to suggest he can be a top pairing defenseman even with a partner as talented as Letang?

I'm not just blindly saying it won't work, I'm using Johnson's performance here in 10 games + his track record in Columbus and LA. Even when he was a top pairing guy, it's fair to question whether he belonged there in the first place.

The problem is that the Penguins consistently played players on par or worse than Johnson on the top pair with Letang and it worked fine. Letang's entire career has been carrying lesser players on the top pair, Dumoulin was really his first great D partner. Johnson isn't a top pair defenseman, but with Letang, they wouldn't need him to be a top pair defenseman. I was editing in some players as my computer shut down, but Letang's most common partners from 2010-2015 were Orpik, bad Martin (as in Martin from 2010-2012, Letang really never played with good Martin) and Niskanen on his off-side. I don't view Johnson to be worse than any of those options. I don't think having a Johnson caliber defenseman with Letang is a problem as long as Letang is playing well, because they have proven to be fine with playing lesser defensemen with Letang in the past.

And like I said, the real benefit here isn't playing Johnson with Letang, it's playing Dumoulin on the 2nd pair. Drawing a comparison to 2013, it would be like running with Orpik or Niskanen with Letang as the top pair and letting Martin anchor the 2nd pair, instead of having their 2 best guys in Martin and Letang together (which is what they did). Today, Orpik/Niskanen is Johnson and Martin is Dumoulin, I think both of those comparisons are between very similar players in terms of ability. I think the improvement from having Dumoulin on the 2nd pair is way bigger than the negative of having Johnson on the top pair, just because Letang is playing that well.

I have no interest in playing Letang with the Eaton, Scuderi, and declining Orpik's and Ehrhoffs. Those teams didn't do jack **** in the playoffs. Let Dumo-Letang be your top pair and figure the rest of it out. Don't water down your top pair to make your 2nd pair less sucky. Make a trade if the mix isn't right but don't hinder Letang's best start to a season with Jack Johnson. Just not worth it for Letang or the team IMO.

Those teams didn't fail based on their top pair not being good enough, though. The problems they've had this year is that their bottom-2 pairs suck, why load up your top pair to an unnecessary level and sacrifice your other pairs?

I get your perspective, but I don't think the benefit of Dumo on 2nd pair outweighs the negative of JJ on the top pair. That said, I'm open to see it for a few games since something needs to change this losing skid.

I do not see any negatives of JJ on the top pair because of how Letang is playing. That's an endorsement of Letang, not Johnson. As long as Letang is playing well, you can put anyone there that can play 20 minutes and I'd be comfortable with the pair. With Letang playing this well, I want a guy that can bring some physicality/grit and can eat minutes. That's what Johnson can do.

 

[Andy99]

I'd love to see this team try to trap it up for a game or two, and stop defensemen pinching all the time. Try to force turnovers in the neutral zone and attack off that.

The defense tends to be ok when we aren't giving up odd man rushes every 2 minutes, and the forwards aren't flying the zone as soon as a teammate simply touches the puck.

We aren't the fastest team in the league anymore, and we need to stop playing like we are.

I think we need to do this to start the game off since in our losses we’ve routinely let the first goal in and it might help settle Murray down...if we can get the lead, then we can go back to pinching and playing more aggressively...of course this counterpunch approach requires a good shooting %...have to hope we make good on our chances...

 

[AverageJoeFan]

We are losing the puck battles way too often.

Every team double teams the guy moving the puck out of our end and we turn it over. Guys are STILL flying the D zone and not giving enough support.

No rotation on pinching D- STILL

The garbage comments about Murr are INSANE. He is the ONLY reason that game wasn't 10-1.

The Pens are failing on the basics of playing a 200' game. The entire team. Putting it on JJ or whomever is your scapegoat du jour is crap and flat out wrong.

 

[DegenX]

MOD WARNING ...
1.) We all cheer for the same team. Someone disagreeing with you is not just cause to be rude or condescending.
2.) We're all hockey fans. If someone who cheers for another team drops by to chat, as long as they're being friendly you should be as well.
3.) User names do not always reflect what fanbase they belong to. See point 2, above.
4.) Flower does not play for this team any longer. He does not belong in the post game discussion.

 

[phaeded]

It doesn't hurt my feelings, but it exposes your agenda and makes you sound uninformed.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Yikes...

 

[vikingGoalie]

yikes i didn't realize it was that bad.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

To the conversation that coaches have short tenures with teams in this league. Quenneville's ten years run with one team seems amazing.

Btw, Blackhawks' new head coach is only 33 y.o., that's crazy.

 

[Gurglesons]

The problem is that the Penguins consistently played players on par or worse than Johnson on the top pair with Letang and it worked fine. Letang's entire career has been carrying lesser players on the top pair, Dumoulin was really his first great D partner. Johnson isn't a top pair defenseman, but with Letang, they wouldn't need him to be a top pair defenseman. I was editing in some players as my computer shut down, but Letang's most common partners from 2010-2015 were Orpik, bad Martin (as in Martin from 2010-2012, Letang really never played with good Martin) and Niskanen on his off-side. I don't view Johnson to be worse than any of those options. I don't think having a Johnson caliber defenseman with Letang is a problem as long as Letang is playing well, because they have proven to be fine with playing lesser defensemen with Letang in the past.

And like I said, the real benefit here isn't playing Johnson with Letang, it's playing Dumoulin on the 2nd pair. Drawing a comparison to 2013, it would be like running with Orpik or Niskanen with Letang as the top pair and letting Martin anchor the 2nd pair, instead of having their 2 best guys in Martin and Letang together (which is what they did). Today, Orpik/Niskanen is Johnson and Martin is Dumoulin, I think both of those comparisons are between very similar players in terms of ability. I think the improvement from having Dumoulin on the 2nd pair is way bigger than the negative of having Johnson on the top pair, just because Letang is playing that well.



Those teams didn't fail based on their top pair not being good enough, though. The problems they've had this year is that their bottom-2 pairs suck, why load up your top pair to an unnecessary level and sacrifice your other pairs?



I do not see any negatives of JJ on the top pair because of how Letang is playing. That's an endorsement of Letang, not Johnson. As long as Letang is playing well, you can put anyone there that can play 20 minutes and I'd be comfortable with the pair. With Letang playing this well, I want a guy that can bring some physicality/grit and can eat minutes. That's what Johnson can do.

Johnson can not do that. And setting up Letang to fail is probably the worst thing we can do since he is a defenseman that runs on instinct and having a defensively solid partner that can skate and move the puck.

Which from JJ’s short time here is his three issues.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

Not sure what is worse looking at a terrible metric and taking it all for face value or assuming it tells you about the team playing in front of the netminder.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

I thought we were supposed to cool it on the goalie talk. In the interest of accurate information, though, I don't think that GSAA chart is current. The one on Sean Tierney's website right now (link here) still puts Murray near the bottom of the league, but it looks different than the one phaeded posted.

 

[Shady Machine]

I thought we were supposed to cool it on the goalie talk. In the interest of accurate information, though, I don't think that GSAA chart is current. The one on Sean Tierney's website right now (link here) still puts Murray near the bottom of the league, but it looks different than the one phaeded posted.

Ha so he and Fleury are right next to eachother! How ironic given the conversation in the thread.

 

[Turin]

I'd love to see this team try to trap it up for a game or two, and stop defensemen pinching all the time. Try to force turnovers in the neutral zone and attack off that.

The defense tends to be ok when we aren't giving up odd man rushes every 2 minutes, and the forwards aren't flying the zone as soon as a teammate simply touches the puck.

We aren't the fastest team in the league anymore, and we need to stop playing like we are.

I’d rather they get better players who can play a sustainable brand of hockey. Nobody is trapping their way to a Cup to mask deficiencies anymore.

Not sure what is worse looking at a terrible metric and taking it all for face value or assuming it tells you about the team playing in front of the netminder.

There’s not a single metric that says that Murray has been good the last calendar year.

 

[MrBurghundy]

I’d rather they get better players who can play a sustainable brand of hockey. Nobody is trapping their way to a Cup to mask deficiencies anymore.


There’s not a single metric that says that Murray has been good the last calendar year.

Well sure, get better players. But who? It's not like that's some menial task that can be easily accomplished.

In the meantime, some adjustments need to be made. We aren't the fastest team in the league anymore, and we need to stop acting like we are.

 

[Gurglesons]

I’d rather they get better players who can play a sustainable brand of hockey. Nobody is trapping their way to a Cup to mask deficiencies anymore.


There’s not a single metric that says that Murray has been good the last calendar year.

Caps implemented a neutral zone trap (1-1-3) to win the cup last year.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Just because you trap, doesn't mean you do it exactly like the Devil's of old.

 

[Turin]

Caps implemented a neutral zone trap (1-1-3) to win the cup last year.

Not to mask any deficiency. They were fast and talented and gelled well. Pens also trapped in 2016 all the time. The trap works better when you’re fast. There is no bandaid option anymore, in this league you either get faster or you die.

 

[Al Smith]

Just because you trap, doesn't mean you do it exactly like the Devil's of old.

The lack of the center line changes the trap a bit from how the Devils did it and almost ruined the sport