Post-Game Talk: Pens/Devils: A Penguins 7 day trip to a warm place in hell

[Al Smith]

Very sad to hear that. X's and O's are more than just a style of play. You can be fast while trapping or giving the sense of trapping. When you invent something that changed the game and everyone copies you, it's your responsibility to be able to beat what you created. The gap was going to close. We were never going to win 2 Cups and all of a sudden be the fastest team by the largest margin. There weren't even teams focusing solely on speed 100% in 15-16 and now every team wants to get younger and faster. Hell.. in 2015, 4th lines will had your Tanner Glass players.

To fully understand just how much the Pens changed the game of hockey is difficult. So when people say "Maaaaaybe we should adjust to beat what we started", it makes perfect sense.

The need for adjustment is obvious as the team core gets older and slower. There are also, of course, different types/shades of trap. And certainly sullys job is to win by any means.

Having said that, as a long time fan of this team that has a certain identity, I’d much rather watch a fast, somewhat flawed team than a slower team that needs to slow down the game to win and might be more successful. That’s what the 2005 strike was meant to do and it did so and made the game more watchable until the refs and mega-goalie pads negated the rule changes to a large extent.

I know it’s a bit counterintuitive not to put winning over everything, but there are a lot better options with limited time (especially as you get older and the future is more finite) than watching 2.5 hours of a boring product, whether it’s the Pens or someone else.

 

[Ryder71]

I think they might, but I doubt a new coach coming in changes anything.

I would say our main issues right now are

# 1: Roster construction: Especially the defense.

# 2: Defensive play by our forwards: Especially the top two lines.

# 3: Goaltending: Murray hasn’t been horrible, but he’s definitely not been good.

# 4: Coaching. Line combinations have been weird and as Colepens has alluded to you can’t make Sprong, Simon and Riikola accountable for everything then let Johnson, Sheahan, and Jake get away with some of their play.

# 5: Injuries. I kind of want to put this higher, but with the money tied up in D that we have we should be able to succeed without Schultz. Brassard is only one forward and the reason we brought in Cullen / Grant was to be able to handle an injury to C.

I believe this team is undisciplined and doesn't want to adhere to a more rigid or structured regiment. It's not that they can't do it, but more that after a while they lose their focus or appreciation for playing the ''right way''. We saw a lot of good things during the road trip. They still had some turnovers and occasional break downs, but overall they played with a purpose and determination, had great cycling sequences thus keeping teams hemmed in, and used guys like Hags and Rust very effectively on the forecheck. Even some of the fastest young teams in the league had their hands full. Then, We go home and lay a brick. Pretty disappointing, like.

 

[ronduguayshair]

wouldn't you if you only get 6 minutes in a game and any mistake you make likely means it's your last shift for the game?

He hasn’t been good enough. I’m sorry it is not working out for the Sprong fanclub.

 

[Gurglesons]

I believe this team is undisciplined and doesn't want to adhere to a more rigid or structured regiment. It's not that they can't do it, but more that after a while they lose their focus or appreciation for playing the ''right way''. We saw a lot of good things during the road trip. They still had some turnovers and occasional break downs, but overall they played with a purpose and determination, had great cycling sequences thus keeping teams hemmed in, and used guys like Hags and Rust very effectively on the forecheck. Even some of the fastest young teams in the league had their hands full. Then, We go home and lay a brick. Pretty disappointing, like.

And that isn’t on Sullivan. That is on our stars.

Sid especially.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

He hasn’t been good enough. I’m sorry it is not working out for the Sprong fanclub.

Actually, he's had a few good games lately. He also looks like he over thinks things. But to the point, he's had 13 SOG total for the year. IS that him, to some degree yes. It also is no where near good enough leaving him to rot for 8 mins ATOI and never getting a chance to play when the chips are on the table.

On a side note, Rust is ATOI is almost double of Sprong's (PK in there) and he amassed 20 SOG. TBT, you should be much more concerned about Rust in my mind.

 

[canadianguy77]

He hasn’t been good enough. I’m sorry it is not working out for the Sprong fanclub.

Lol. Get back to me when he isn't outscoring Hagelin, Rust, Sheahan, and Grant. Some of those guys are paid what, 5 times as much as him, and you think Sprong is the problem?

 

[ronduguayshair]

Lol. Get back to me when he isn't outscoring Hagelin, Rust, Sheahan, and Grant. Some of those guys are paid what, 5 times as much as him, and you think Sprong is the problem?

Difference is the guys you’ve listed have proven it before. Sprong hasn’t. I am not sure why people treat him like he’s done enough for promotion. What has he proven? He’ll get a shot eventually but to this point he hasn’t earned it.

Again, I am very sorry.

 

[Gurglesons]

Lol. Get back to me when he isn't outscoring Hagelin, Rust, Sheahan, and Grant. Some of those guys are paid what, 5 times as much as him, and you think Sprong is the problem?

I mean, he technically isn’t outscoring anyone. He has a higher amount of assists.

 

[billybudd]

I keep seeing the “Penguins need to get bigger, more physical” thing and it makes no sense. Why don’t they try to get a speed advantage again? You win with speed, lose said speed and the answer is to lose more speed? They really don’t have the pieces like you said, and there’s no evidence that big teams are effective.

So, the answer to that is that a "speed advantage" was a market inefficiency when the Penguins hoarded it. It's not now.

It's also a depreciating asset. Rust is, what, 26 now? He's already not as fast as he was at 23 or 24. So, to maintain a speed advantage, you would need constant turnover and a very high percentage hit rate in the mid rounds of the draft.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Pens need fresher legs, but I just don't think a 2016-style faster-than-everybody thing is really in the cards. Even if it was, I don't think it's something that can be maintained for more than a year or two.

 

[billybudd]

Maybe.. ZAR & Angello can play physical. Kassian is available for probably next to nothing.

Aston Reese is more physical than the guys we have, but I wouldn't call him particularly physical. To play a physical style, you need like 10, 12 guys who can play a heavy game. We just don't have that. Calling up an Angello to add to Oleksiak doesn't really get us there.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Lol. Get back to me when he isn't outscoring Hagelin, Rust, Sheahan, and Grant. Some of those guys are paid what, 5 times as much as him, and you think Sprong is the problem?

Sprong IS a problem. He's been directly responsible for 5 goals against in 13 games. That's a lot, especially for someone with his meager minutes.

 

[Jacob]

Aston Reese is more physical than the guys we have, but I wouldn't call him particularly physical. To play a physical style, you need like 10, 12 guys who can play a heavy game. We just don't have that. Calling up an Angello to add to Oleksiak doesn't really get us there.

I dunno, we became a speed team virtually overnight with 2 trades and a couple call-ups. Oh and a coaching change.

I'm just suggesting adding a wrinkle, not necessarily changing the entire identity of the team.

 

[Ryder71]

I think adding another speedy winger with good offensive acumen would really help round out the top nine. Which is why I was clamoring for a guy like Domi last season. Such guys aren't easy to acquire but far from impossible.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

I think adding another speedy winger with good offensive acumen would really help round out the top nine. Which is why I was clamoring for a guy like Domi last season. Such guys aren't easy to acquire but far from impossible.

Also, guys like Haula and Pageau would have been far better targets for 3C role for this team than Sheahan and Brassard.

 

[Turin]

So, the answer to that is that a "speed advantage" was a market inefficiency when the Penguins hoarded it. It's not now.

It's also a depreciating asset. Rust is, what, 26 now? He's already not as fast as he was at 23 or 24. So, to maintain a speed advantage, you would need constant turnover and a very high percentage hit rate in the mid rounds of the draft.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Pens need fresher legs, but I just don't think a 2016-style faster-than-everybody thing is really in the cards. Even if it was, I don't think it's something that can be maintained for more than a year or two.

I don’t think they need to become the fastest team ever again, just keep up. They can do that by replacing some players with guys who can think the game at a faster pace or are just generally more skilled. I’ll use Bones as an example in this respect again. Rust is a lot of speed and not as much smarts or God-given skill, those guys might have to be replaced quickly unfortunately..

 

[Gurglesons]

ZAR up and Grant down. Rejoice. Our king will save us.

 

[Angrrus]

Just bruised massive egos.

Don't think they are really bruised. They don't look like they care at all.

 

[Angrrus]

I believe you are joking, but if not - I've heard that one PLENTY of times on this board. And I cannot wait to rub it in your face when this team goes on another run.

Last season showed that you can't mail it in in the RS and then magically flip the switch in PO. It simply doesn't work this way.

So "another run" ain't happening.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Aston Reese is more physical than the guys we have, but I wouldn't call him particularly physical. To play a physical style, you need like 10, 12 guys who can play a heavy game. We just don't have that. Calling up an Angello to add to Oleksiak doesn't really get us there.

Lets hope Pavlychev can turn into something, although that does nothing for us this year.

 

[billybudd]

I dunno, we became a speed team virtually overnight with 2 trades and a couple call-ups. Oh and a coaching change.

I'm just suggesting adding a wrinkle, not necessarily changing the entire identity of the team.

Thing is, those 2 trades and handful of callups constituted roughly a 30% turnover in the (execrable) opening night roster.

JR being JR, there's no guessing at what he does when he doesn't like what he sees, but another in-season 1/3 roster replacement strikes me as a longshot. Then again, the first time he did that was also a longshot and he did it, anyway.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Difference is the guys you’ve listed have proven it before. Sprong hasn’t. I am not sure why people treat him like he’s done enough for promotion. What has he proven? He’ll get a shot eventually but to this point he hasn’t earned it.

Again, I am very sorry.

He's proven he can outproduce Rust this year despite a lot less time and a lot lower quality of teammate, and production is pretty high on the list of things to look for in a top 9 winger...particularly for us right now.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Every team in this league wants to win so badly, and if you can't match that it will show. The last two seasons it's obvious the pens don't have the same desperation level as other teams, it's hard to fake desire. The price you pay for success. With so much of the cup winning teams still here, we have to hope they put it together for when it really matters. If they lose in the playoffs again then a larger restructure will need to happen.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Don't think they are really bruised. They don't look like they care at all.

Probably true.

The whole comments of "The answers are in the dressing room" points to Sullivan thinking it's the players and not his system.

Buckle in bitches, this is going to be a disappoint af ride.

 

[Peat]

He's proven he can outproduce Rust this year despite a lot less time and a lot lower quality of teammate, and production is pretty high on the list of things to look for in a top 9 winger...particularly for us right now.

Production isn't as big an issue as being defensively solid right now. If it was, things might be looking different for Sprong.

Thing is, those 2 trades and handful of callups constituted roughly a 30% turnover in the (execrable) opening night roster.

JR being JR, there's no guessing at what he does when he doesn't like what he sees, but another in-season 1/3 roster replacement strikes me as a longshot. Then again, the first time he did that was also a longshot and he did it, anyway.

You can only really run that many replacements if you've got kids in the farm team who know the system imo. If you don't, there'll be too much integration and too many trades to make.

It is not wholly impossible, imo, that we'll have 3/4 players who started the season in WBS on the roster at the end of the season. Maybe a bit unlikely but I think you can see the potential guys down there.

 

[canadianguy77]

Difference is the guys you’ve listed have proven it before. Sprong hasn’t. I am not sure why people treat him like he’s done enough for promotion. What has he proven? He’ll get a shot eventually but to this point he hasn’t earned it.

Again, I am very sorry.

You don't have to feel sorry for me chief. I'm a huge fan of both 87 and 71. But once I think that they're no longer all that beneficial to the team, and a trade would return more than they provide, I want them gone. I'm more loyal to the team than I am the players.

I couldn't give 2 shits about what Carl Hagelin or Bryan Rust did 2 or 3 years ago. Daniel Sprong is outplaying and outproducing them both of them so far this season with lesser players and minutes. He deserves more ice-time right now.