GDT: Pens @ Capitals - 11/20/2013 8 PM - Wednesday Night Pierre Ruining a Good Game

[BrooklynCapsFan]

If you still want Ovechkin carrying the puck into the zone at even strength, I question if you've watched this team the past two+ years.

Maybe the shot between the dman's legs is an option again

 

[Calicaps]

Just remember. McPhee hired Oates over Jon Cooper. Look what Cooper's extremely young Tampa Bay team is doing. Second in a very good division.

I wanted Cooper during that whole process and we got stuck with Oates.

We'll see. Not that I'm defending Oates, but Cooper could easily be flavor of the month. I can think of a half-dozen rookie coaches who came out of the gate strong and fizzled in not too long a time.

 

[Hivemind]

It's not like that Ligthning roster is devoid of talent. Boucher got a pretty similar line-up into the playoffs on the back of Roloson as their starting goaltender. And now he's out of a job.

I had Cooper ranked above Oates out of the three "finalists" for the Capitals job, but I don't think the decision is one I'd regret quite yet.

 

[troyerlaw]

Hey guys, it's Ovie. From hockey. Do you ever feel like life is not party and is never party again?

 

[um]

If you still want Ovechkin carrying the puck into the zone at even strength, I question if you've watched this team the past two+ years.

I'm just saying its getting predictable and its easier for the opposition to stop 2 forwards rather than 3 on the zone entry. does ovechkin have to stop carrying the puck for the rest of his career because he didnt learn to pass under BB?

 

[Liberati0n*]

I'm just saying its getting predictable and its easier for the opposition to stop 2 forwards rather than 3 on the zone entry. does ovechkin have to stop carrying the puck for the rest of his career because he didnt learn to pass under BB?

The issue is his horrible stickhandling and turnovers, not his passing.

 

[FloridaCap]

Hey guys, it's Ovie. From hockey. Do you ever feel like life is not party and is never party again?

lol, Ovi from Hockey. So ****ing funny when I first read that.

 

[Whakahere]

-------

 

[RandyHolt]

Hey guys, it's Ovie. From hockey. Do you ever feel like life is not party and is never party again?

brooks LIKE

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'm just saying its getting predictable and its easier for the opposition to stop 2 forwards rather than 3 on the zone entry. does ovechkin have to stop carrying the puck for the rest of his career because he didnt learn to pass under BB?

Ovechkin didn't learn to pass BEFORE he made the NHL???!?! Hilarious stuff...

 

[Calicaps]

First, Ovie is the least of this team's problems.

Second, for all his talent and excellence, he may well be this organization's greatest failure. Imagine if he had been drafted by Detroit or another team that isn't awestruck by great young talent and really knows how to develop players. If anyone in the Caps front office had thought for one second "how great could he be?" instead of just "wow, he's so great!" early in his career, and they had taught him, asked him to be better instead of letting him do whatever he felt like... He was the best in the world without **** for guidance.

As great as he is, Christ, what a player he could have become! Un-****ing-stoppable.

 

[FloridaCap]

First, Ovie is the least of this team's problems.

Second, for all his talent and excellence, he may well be this organization's greatest failure. Imagine if he had been drafted by Detroit or another team that isn't awestruck by great young talent and really knows how to develop players. If anyone in the Caps front office had thought for one second "how great could he be?" instead of just "wow, he's so great!" early in his career, and they had taught him, asked him to be better instead of letting him do whatever he felt like... He was the best in the world without **** for guidance.

As great as he is, Christ, what a player he could have become! Un-****ing-stoppable.

So true.

I'm still convinced that it's not that he doesn't WANT to play defense, it's that he CANT play defense. I don't think he was every taught the defensive side of the rink. Hunter taught how to block shots. That's not defense.

He knows if he plays defense, he'll take unnecessary penalties, provide horrible defense, and just tire himself out. Instead, he floats at the blue line.

Imagine if somebody taught the guy how to play along the boards.


He's essentially the same exact player he came in the league as. He's bigger, stronger, slower, but his skills haven't changed a bit. Haven't gotten worse, haven't gotten better. Of course, he came into the league so incredible already that he's won several MVPs just being himself. But imagine if we actually developed the guy.

 

[artilector]

Imagine if he had been drafted by Detroit or another team that isn't awestruck by great young talent and really knows how to develop players. If anyone in the Caps front office had thought for one second "how great could he be?" instead of just "wow, he's so great!" early in his career, and they had taught him, asked him to be better instead of letting him do whatever he felt like... He was the best in the world without **** for guidance.

As great as he is, Christ, what a player he could have become! Un-****ing-stoppable.

So true.

I'm still convinced that it's not that he doesn't WANT to play defense, it's that he CANT play defense. I don't think he was every taught the defensive side of the rink. Hunter taught how to block shots. That's not defense.

He's essentially the same exact player he came in the league as. He's bigger, stronger, slower, but his skills haven't changed a bit. Haven't gotten worse, haven't gotten better. Of course, he came into the league so incredible already that he's won several MVPs just being himself. But imagine if we actually developed the guy.

All true. Sigh..

 

[um]

Ovechkin didn't learn to pass BEFORE he made the NHL???!?! Hilarious stuff...

he used to be a bit of a puck hog... dont act like you dont remember.

 

[Ajax1995]

Its a fine line to walk. I don't mind them making plays and taking risks. They just have to do a better job at identifying times when they shouldn't.

That comes with experience. Our D lineup last night had very little comparatively.

Which is why I said:

I think last night was yet another example of a team that does not understand that sometimes you just need to get the puck out of the zone.

And it isn't just the defense, far from it actually IMO. The forwards will routinely try something cute or nonchalantly hold the puck waiting for someone to get clearly open when the opportunity to finally get it out after having already been trapped in their zone for a long time comes and not pull it off. That is a 'it just has to get out so we can make a change' time but instead an already tired group has to go defend deep in their zone again.

I understand the defense is young but the forward group isn't for the most part and they have the experience to know when it is ok to take a chance and when it just has to get out.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

he used to be a bit of a puck hog... dont act like you dont remember.

Don't act like BB ruined his passing ability.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

First, Ovie is the least of this team's problems.

Second, for all his talent and excellence, he may well be this organization's greatest failure. Imagine if he had been drafted by Detroit or another team that isn't awestruck by great young talent and really knows how to develop players. If anyone in the Caps front office had thought for one second "how great could he be?" instead of just "wow, he's so great!" early in his career, and they had taught him, asked him to be better instead of letting him do whatever he felt like... He was the best in the world without **** for guidance.

As great as he is, Christ, what a player he could have become! Un-****ing-stoppable.

He's not already next to unstoppable as a goal scorer? He "may be their greatest failure"??!?!?! My god people....ponderous...so over the top Caps fans are sometimes. I get the point about his defensive game and all, but do you think Gretzky's coaches were harping on him about backchecking and defensive zone coverage, Lemieux, etc? He's there to be an explosive offensive force and simply not be a liability in the defensive end and that's where his defensive responsibilities end IMO.

 

[Liberati0n*]

He's not already next to unstoppable as a goal scorer? He "may be their greatest failure"??!?!?! My god people....ponderous...so over the top Caps fans are sometimes. I get the point about his defensive game and all, but do you think Gretzky's coaches were harping on him about backchecking and defensive zone coverage, Lemieux, etc? He's there to be an explosive offensive force and simply not be a liability in the defensive end and that's where his defensive responsibilities end IMO.

Right now, he's a player who has to wait for opportunities and pick his spots. He doesn't control the game. He used to through sheer physical dominance, but his game was never rounded out in a way that would allow him to adapt more effectively at even strength. He's an unstoppable goal-scorer when he gets certain chances, but those aren't as frequent as they need to be at even strength. Not that that's his fault, but he isn't as able to cope with it as he could be.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Right now, he's a player who has to wait for opportunities and pick his spots. He doesn't control the game. He used to through sheer physical dominance, but his game was never rounded out in a way that would allow him to adapt more effectively at even strength. He's an unstoppable goal-scorer when he gets certain chances, but those aren't as frequent as they need to be at even strength. Not that that's his fault, but he isn't as able to cope with it as he could be.

Even strength scoring and offense generation is a team issue, not an Ovechkin issue IMO. I'm not suggesting he couldn't have developed differently, but the constant blaming of Boudreau for all things bad with the Caps is mind numbing. There's one man in charge of Hockey Operations.

 

[Calicaps]

He's not already next to unstoppable as a goal scorer? He "may be their greatest failure"??!?!?! My god people....ponderous...so over the top Caps fans are sometimes. I get the point about his defensive game and all, but do you think Gretzky's coaches were harping on him about backchecking and defensive zone coverage, Lemieux, etc? He's there to be an explosive offensive force and simply not be a liability in the defensive end and that's where his defensive responsibilities end IMO.

Gretzky was a savant is isn't worth discussing in the context of anyone else.

Lemieux grew his game. Yzerman grew his game. Ron Francis grew his game. Crosby (barf) grew his game.

The difference isn't that Ovie is less than them. It's that they had outstanding mentors, GMs, and coaches and played for organizations that looked at their greatness and saw, not perfection, but potential.

I say he's the greatest failure because the Caps are all about 40 years of missed opportunities, none more stark than failing to develop Ovie when he was a young, wide-eyed, eager kid. I'm not criticizing him. But his game stagnated--at a very high level, I grant--in the stark absence of the organizational vision and leadership needed to help him raise it.

I stand behind that assessment 100%.

(And FWIW, I mostly agree with what Liberation said about waiting for opportunities and being unstoppable largely only when those opportunities are present. But I also agree that he can still get fired up and take over a game from time to time; just not the way he used to, which was unsustainable without an evolution in his game.)

 

[Calicaps]

Even strength scoring and offense generation is a team issue, not an Ovechkin issue IMO. I'm not suggesting he couldn't have developed differently, but the constant blaming of Boudreau for all things bad with the Caps is mind numbing.

FWIW, I didn't say anything about BB in particular. I think the whole organization, esp. GMGM, (and including Ted and BB) is to blame.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

FWIW, I didn't say anything about BB in particular. I think the whole organization, esp. GMGM, (and including Ted and BB) is to blame.

I think it was clear to anyone reading it wasn't you I quoted when referring to BB.

 

[Calicaps]

I think it was clear to anyone reading it wasn't you I quoted when referring to BB.

I didn't see BB mentioned in anything you quoted, so wasn't clear to me.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Gretzky was a savant is isn't worth discussing in the context of anyone else.

Lemieux grew his game. Yzerman grew his game. Ron Francis grew his game. Crosby (barf) grew his game.

The difference isn't that Ovie is less than them. It's that they had outstanding mentors, GMs, and coaches and played for organizations that looked at their greatness and saw, not perfection, but potential.

I say he's the greatest failure because the Caps are all about 40 years of missed opportunities, none more stark than failing to develop Ovie when he was a young, wide-eyed, eager kid. I'm not criticizing him. But his game stagnated--at a very high level, I grant--in the stark absence of the organizational vision and leadership needed to help him raise it.

I stand behind that assessment 100%.

(And FWIW, I mostly agree with what Liberation said about waiting for opportunities and being unstoppable largely only when those opportunities are present. But I also agree that he can still get fired up and take over a game from time to time; just not the way he used to, which was unsustainable without an evolution in his game.)

They're SUPERSTAR players, all of them that I mentioned, so yes, they're worth discussing, 99 and all.

I've believed the mentor thing and the Caps lack of providing them have been an issue for Ovechkin, Green, Semin, Backstrom, etc...all of them could have used better on-ice mentors. Feds and Kozlov were the right move, just too old to be effective for very long. Instead we bring in guys like Knuble who tells Ovy to reel it in and save himself.

Sorry, but I can't logically look at Ovechkin and say he's the Caps greatest failure. It's an absurd notion. Their inability to build the proper roster around him might well be their greatest failure. You say his game stagnated because of the organization, I say it was largely on the player. He broke down mentally after the crushing Olympics defeat, playoff losses, suspensions and criticism and the NHL learned how to negate his effectiveness.

I'd like to see you describe your fantasy version of the "Detroit Redwings developing Ovechkin differently". Would he be Ovechkin or simply a Zetterberg clone, not as explosive and productive offensively, but he sure can backcheck his ass off!

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I didn't see BB mentioned in anything you quoted, so wasn't clear to me.

Post 416, quoting Um.