GDT: Pens @ Capitals - 11/20/2013 8 PM - Wednesday Night Pierre Ruining a Good Game

marcel snapshot

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Feb 15, 2005
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CCFan I think you're right to flag an organizational shortcoming re. the development of Ovie. I think that's part of what prompted Hunter to get out fast - the organization wasn't committed to doing what was necessary to mold him into a complete hockey player, because it's skittish about pissing him off. It's entirely fair to ask what would have happened to him in the Red Wings organization, since they are so adept at getting guys to be complete players and really preach playing as, and thinking like, a 5 man unit.

By contrast, the marketeer in Ted may be more committed to selling marketable superstars more than he is to building a successful hockey team.
 

Calicaps

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They're SUPERSTAR players, all of them that I mentioned, so yes, they're worth discussing, 99 and all.

I've believed the mentor thing and the Caps lack of providing them have been an issue for Ovechkin, Green, Semin, Backstrom, etc...all of them could have used better on-ice mentors. Feds and Kozlov were the right move, just too old to be effective for very long. Instead we bring in guys like Knuble who tells Ovy to reel it in and save himself. :rant:

Sorry, but I can't logically look at Ovechkin and say he's the Caps greatest failure. It's an absurd notion. Their inability to build the proper roster around him might well be their greatest failure. You say his game stagnated because of the organization, I say it was largely on the player. He broke down mentally after the crushing Olympics defeat, playoff losses, suspensions and criticism and the NHL learned how to negate his effectiveness.

I'd like to see you describe your fantasy version of the "Detroit Redwings developing Ovechkin differently". Would he be Ovechkin or simply a Zetterberg clone, not as explosive and productive offensively, but he sure can backcheck his ass off! ;)

I disagree that Gretzky is relevant to anyone else, but I did comment on the others you mentioned and more.

To me, the bolded portion is not different than my point. This speaks to mentors, but perhaps I also should have said teammates.

As for my ideal Detroit-developed Ovie. No. He would not be Zetterberg. But Zetterberg was a 7th round pick who became the player he is because Detroit knows how to develop players, so in that regard, he's relevant.

Detroit would probably have worked with Ovie when he was younger to utilize his line mates more effectively. They would likely have helped him learn to read the ice better and not rely entirely on sheer physical talent. I suspect they would have, yes, asked him to back check and learn a defensive game rather than just hovering around the blue or red lines waiting for a stretch pass. A better neutral zone game/stickhandling/possession... He could improve in all these areas and they would not have been afraid to demand, encourage, and cultivate that. I also suspect he would not have been made captain when he was not ready.

More than anything, they may have helped him learn to manage his energy. Two minutes on the PP? No. Two minute shifts? No. Floating on D so he can be explosive on O? No. You manage the energy to preserve your explosiveness and be effective in all three zones.

You put it on the player. I say nonsense. I believe Ovie was a willing pupil, but no one learns without teaching. When he was new and young, he was very deferential to his coaches, GMGM, and Ted. They chose not to harness that humbleness and enthusiasm but rather to treat him like a king and spoil him.

EDIT: And I don't think it's absurd to say this is their greatest failure. He was absolutely the best thing that ever happened to the Caps. The potential for him and the organization was massive. They largely squandered it. Such a chance will probably never come again. Thus, their greatest failure.
 
Last edited:

Calicaps

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Aug 3, 2006
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Almost Canada
CCFan I think you're right to flag an organizational shortcoming re. the development of Ovie. I think that's part of what prompted Hunter to get out fast - the organization wasn't committed to doing what was necessary to mold him into a complete hockey player, because it's skittish about pissing him off. It's entirely fair to ask what would have happened to him in the Red Wings organization, since they are so adept at getting guys to be complete players and really preach playing as, and thinking like, a 5 man unit.

By contrast, the marketeer in Ted may be more committed to selling marketable superstars more than he is to building a successful hockey team.

You observation about Hunter is interesting. But I also think it was too late for 32's style. Oates has had success with Ovie because he has not approached him like a kid. That ship sailed long ago, and that seemed to be Hunter's idea.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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I disagree that Gretzky is relevant to anyone else, but I did comment on the others you mentioned and more.

To me, the bolded portion is not different than my point. This speaks to mentors, but perhaps I also should have said teammates.

As for my ideal Detroit-developed Ovie. No. He would not be Zetterberg. But Zetterberg was a 7th round pick who became the player he is because Detroit knows how to develop players, so in that regard, he's relevant.

Detroit would probably have worked with Ovie when he was younger to utilize his line mates more effectively. They would likely have helped him learn to read the ice better and not rely entirely on sheer physical talent. I suspect they would have, yes, asked him to back check and learn a defensive game rather than just hovering around the blue or red lines waiting for a stretch pass. A better neutral zone game/stickhandling/possession... He could improve in all these areas and they would not have been afraid to demand, encourage, and cultivate that. I also suspect he would not have been made captain when he was not ready.

More than anything, they may have helped him learn to manage his energy. Two minutes on the PP? No. Two minute shifts? No. Floating on D so he can be explosive on O? No. You manage the energy to preserve your explosiveness and be effective in all three zones.

You put it on the player. I say nonsense. I believe Ovie was a willing pupil, but no one learns without teaching. When he was new and young, he was very deferential to his coaches, GMGM, and Ted. They chose not to harness that humbleness and enthusiasm but rather to treat him like a king and spoil him.

You're criticizing a multi time MVP for floating and blaming that on the franchise? I guess he'd have won 5 MVP's and 5 Cups by now if he was drafted a Red Wing? Fans complain about lack of accountability and then want to skapegoat everything on the organization giving players a free ride...pretty frustrating.
 

Calicaps

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Aug 3, 2006
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You're criticizing a multi time MVP for floating and blaming that on the franchise? I guess he'd have won 5 MVP's and 5 Cups by now if he was drafted a Red Wing? Fans complain about lack of accountability and then want to skapegoat everything on the organization giving players a free ride...pretty frustrating.

He would be EVEN better, maybe with cups, maybe more MVPs. I believe that.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
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Who even said "defensively focused"? You're stretching my words. I said repeatedly he could be better OFFENSIVELY too.

I think it's a reach, but your opinion. I'm certainly not in love with the architect of this roster, so who knows, maybe Ovechkin would have already won a handful of Cups and MVPs if he was drafted a Red Wing. I think he is what he is....not sure he'd ever be the player you're suggesting.
 

Calicaps

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Aug 3, 2006
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I think it's a reach, but your opinion. I'm certainly not in love with the architect of this roster, so who knows, maybe Ovechkin would have already won a handful of Cups and MVPs if he was drafted a Red Wing. I think he is what he is....not sure he'd ever be the player you're suggesting.

Fair enough.

(BTW, though. No mancrushes here. I'm a lady. ;) )
 

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