Post-Game Talk: Pens 6, Oilers 5 - Connor May Be McJesus, But Sid is a Hockey God

[K Fleur]

I thought Sprong was having an ok game until he tried to hit Kassian.

Just a reminder: JJ was on the ice for every single goal the Oilers scored last night. Looks like minimal chances of him being benched or held accountable in any way.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The last three games his zone starts have been 50-50.

At least use correct stats to defend why every situation besides Sprong’s mediocre play has him underachieving.

You keep repeating things even after you've been corrected, pixies. He averaged 6 minutes per over the last 3 games, and a 3 game sample size doesn't change his deployment over the year.

You can talk when his season average gets to something half-reasonable. Or maybe when you get me that counter-example that I'm still waiting on, after '15-'16 Sheary floundered.

 

[Gurglesons]

I thought Sprong was having an ok game until he tried to hit Kassian.

Just a reminder: JJ was on the ice for every single goal the Oilers scored last night. Looks like minimal chances of him being benched or held accountable in any way.

Honestly, I don’t know how else to deploy JJ.

Riikola and Oleksiak need sheltering and Maatta is playing almost as bad.

Johnson has been this bad his whole career so it’s not like he’s going to suddenly get worse.

 

[Gurglesons]

You keep repeating things even after you've been corrected, pixies. He averaged 6 minutes per over the last 3 games, and a 3 game sample size doesn't change his deployment over the year. You can talk when his season average gets to something half-reasonable.

How is using season averages correcting a static point?

The last three games his zone starts have been 50-50, there is no correcting that. It is fact.

 

[K Fleur]

Honestly, I don’t know how else to deploy JJ.

Riikola and Oleksiak need sheltering and Maatta is playing almost as bad.

Johnson has been this bad his whole career so it’s not like he’s going to suddenly get worse.

In the press box.

 

[Gurglesons]

In the press box.

Believe me, I agree. When Schultz was playing he was usually 5th or 6th in terms of ice team unless we PK’d (Johnson that is).

Honestly, it’s why I think they should move Maatta for an Edler type. It’d suck and make us older, but we need someone that can ACTUALLY play the same minutes as Letang and Dumo. Schultz can do that to a degree, but Maatta, Oleksiak and JJ certainly can’t. Well, this Maatta can’t.

 

[Fordy]

what i have seen from sprong and simon is a complete collapse in confidence as this season has gone on. both looked like entirely different players earlier in the season, and especially last season. sully’s fault. you can say yay or nay to individual games or plays and shifts. but this progression for these 2 guys is a disaster and it’s the coaching staffs fault. it’s just another developmental failure. we’re used to those. sully came in with a couple favorites from wbs and gave them everything they needed to flourish and it fooled us, but this isn’t a developmental team and that little gold rush has run out

 

[Tender Rip]

The numbers say different, and Pouliot was not used in the same role here.

Pouliot's in a bottom pairing role, but he's doing well with it now that he's being used properly, after being written off by the fanbase for not thriving while buried. So yes, this is about Pouliot, inasmuch as it's about mishandling young talent.

Timing is a thing. We are a cup contender. Pouliot played 77 games over three years and never looked like taking the next step. He was really bad for the majority. We are not a developing team. If guys don't have the character to move forward and become contributors, they will have to make it elsewhere. A talent will be lost now and then.
Maybe that will be the case for Sprong who I have said for years I don't see a spot for with who we otherwise have and what peak qualities Sprong has.
I don't dispute that he has talent or that confidence is not getting shattered here. But he did nothing in camp to win a chance on a scoring line from the off, which I had hoped for as he was never the type to earn a spot from the 4th line, and he certainly does nothing to earn more time now. Rather he deserves the bench and someone else getting a chance (I think the situation is honestly different with Simon, who I see more as collateral damage).

Either way, we are not development team, and Sullivan wants to win hockey games.

 

[Gurglesons]

Timing is a thing. We are a cup contender. Pouliot played 77 games over three years and never looked like taking the next step. He was really bad for the majority. We are not a developing team. If guys don't have the character to move forward and become contributors, they will have to make it elsewhere. A talent will be lost now and then.
Maybe that will be the case for Sprong who I have said for years I don't see a spot for with who we otherwise have and what peak qualities Sprong has.
I don't dispute that he has talent or that confidence is not getting shattered here. But he did nothing in camp to win a chance on a scoring line from the off, which I had hoped for as he was never the type to earn a spot from the 4th line, and he certainly does nothing to earn more time now. Rather he deserves the bench and someone else getting a chance (I think the situation is honestly different with Simon, who I see more as collateral damage).

Either way, we are not development team, and Sullivan wants to win hockey games.

I think somehow Simon is showing better offensive flares and better puck support.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

How is using season averages correcting a static point?

The last three games his zone starts have been 50-50, there is no correcting that. It is fact.

Because when you average 6 minutes a game, you're not getting many starts anywhere, pixies. And it's barely enough to move the needle on his season average.

This is pretty basic stuff.

 

[Tender Rip]

Okay, so you're not going to actually respond to any of my claims and instead just say "you're wrong because Sullivan is the coach". Glad we cleared that up.

Lots of other people have, and it evidently gives you zero pause. I don't see what I could add that could sway you.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just a reminder: JJ was on the ice for every single goal the Oilers scored last night. Looks like minimal chances of him being benched or held accountable in any way.

That's honestly the thing that bothers me here. I get that a rookie and a veteran aren't going to be held to the same standard, but come on. Johnson was directly responsible for 2 goals last night and was on the ice for all 5 goals, yet he still played in overtime and still got over 20 minutes TOI.

I don't know why people pretend Sullivan is this unique coach who plays young players more than any other coach. Oleksiak had 2 goals and 5 hits last night and was a +3 last night. He played 13:34 in the game. Johnson was on the ice for 5 goals against and only had 3 hits last night. He still played in overtime and still got 20:12 TOI. Sullivan is a coach that plays favorites, and if a player isn't one of his favorites, he'll default to the veteran 100% of the time. People think he's not that because he brought in his WBS crew when he became the head coach, but he's just like every other coach.

what i have seen from sprong and simon is a complete collapse in confidence as this season has gone on. both looked like entirely different players earlier in the season, and especially last season. sully’s fault. you can say yay or nay to individual games or plays and shifts. but this progression for these 2 guys is a disaster and it’s the coaching staffs fault. it’s just another developmental failure. we’re used to those. sully came in with a couple favorites from wbs and gave them everything they needed to flourish and it fooled us, but this isn’t a developmental team and that little gold rush has run out

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

 

[ColePens]

Ask yourself whether anything like that standard applies to the rest of the team.

Further, ask yourself whether doing the right things out there earns Sprong more time anyway. That's been proven not to be the case. Whatever he does, he's getting sat.

Once more, here's what Sully had to say after the 1st game of the season:



Penguins coach Mike Sullivan hopes to get Daniel Sprong more ice time

Does it look to you like Sullivan's looking to get Sprong more minutes? More opportunity to get into the game, build his confidence, and play his game?



I'm saying that young talents shouldn't get buried shift-in and shift out. If you do, things like this will happen. That's not how you develop players who can contribute on ELCs when you're looking for cheap secondary scoring.

Remember Pouliot, the huge draft bust who apparently didn't know which end of the stick to hold? He's now in the second year running of being the best possession defenseman on the Canucks because they use him properly, and he wasn't used half as badly here as Sprong's been.

The standard does apply. He's sitting with Simon when Simon makes his mistakes. And short of injury news - Guentzel got benched for part of the game, too. He's been benched before.

I don't know what game you guys are watching. Sully hopes to get Sprong minutes was when he showed he could win a battle. The last 2-3 games, he deserves to not dress.

The excuses made for this kid are ridiculous. This goes for every single player - call it like you see it. I'm not saying you have to call him a bust, but stop making excuses for him, but then throwing other players under the bus when they make mistakes. If every time Jack Johnson made an error, people should say "Give him more minutes! He needs more minutes!" They don't. I'm a big fan of Sprong's skill set. Last night was pathetic at best. He looked so bad in such few minutes that it seems nearly impossible. Most players in his situation wouldn't even see the next game. He will.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The excuses made for this kid are ridiculous.

I don't understand why you continue to ignore the impact that sitting on the bench does to a player. There's a massive difference between Johnson playing 22 minutes a night and making mistakes, and Sprong making a mistake on 1 of the 3 shifts he has in a game.

You want to comment on the excuses people are making for Sprong, why not look at the excuses you're making to justify Sullivan's bad usage of him? @Shady Machine is spot on when he says both are responsible here, yet you flat out said that Sullivan has done nothing wrong.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Timing is a thing. We are a cup contender. Pouliot played 77 games over three years and never looked like taking the next step. He was really bad for the majority. We are not a developing team. If guys don't have the character to move forward and become contributors, they will have to make it elsewhere. A talent will be lost now and then.

TR, if the team wants cheap ELC contributors to help them through Sid and Geno's twilight years, they're going to need to stop riding the Rowneys and Kuhns of the world into the ground and give talent the opportunity to shine.

Maybe when the Rusts and Hornqvists of the world have 1/3 of Sprong's points through 6 games despite getting a ton more opportunity, maybe they could even be moved down a line to give him a shot.

Maybe that will be the case for Sprong who I have said for years I don't see a spot for with who we otherwise have and what peak qualities Sprong has.
I don't dispute that he has talent or that confidence is not getting shattered here. But he did nothing in camp to win a chance on a scoring line from the off, which I had hoped for as he was never the type to earn a spot from the 4th line, and he certainly does nothing to earn more time now. Rather he deserves the bench and someone else getting a chance (I think the situation is honestly different with Simon, who I see more as collateral damage).

Either way, we are not development team, and Sullivan wants to win hockey games.

Sprong was good in camp. He wasn't good in preseason because he was played on the 4th line in every game but one.

So he's not the type to earn a spot from the 4th line, but he was never given a real chance on anything but the 4th line this year. Sounds like a Catch 22 to me.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The standard does apply. He's sitting with Simon when Simon makes his mistakes. And short of injury news - Guentzel got benched for part of the game, too. He's been benched before.

I don't know what game you guys are watching. Sully hopes to get Sprong minutes was when he showed he could win a battle. The last 2-3 games, he deserves to not dress.

The excuses made for this kid are ridiculous. This goes for every single player - call it like you see it. I'm not saying you have to call him a bust, but stop making excuses for him, but then throwing other players under the bus when they make mistakes. If every time Jack Johnson made an error, people should say "Give him more minutes! He needs more minutes!" They don't. I'm a big fan of Sprong's skill set. Last night was pathetic at best. He looked so bad in such few minutes that it seems nearly impossible. Most players in his situation wouldn't even see the next game. He will.

f*** that shit. Remember Montreal? Kid goes out and makes a great play creating a goal with the few minutes he has then rides pine for the rest of the game.

Don't even get into JJ. He makes mistake after mistake and still gets thrown out there.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't understand why you continue to ignore the impact that sitting on the bench does to a player. There's a massive difference between Johnson playing 22 minutes a night and making mistakes, and Sprong making a mistake on 1 of the 3 shifts he has in a game.

You want to comment on the excuses people are making for Sprong, why not look at the excuses you're making to justify Sullivan's bad usage of him? @Shady Machine is spot on when he says both are responsible here, yet you flat out said that Sullivan has done nothing wrong.

We have the 2nd best point percentage in the East with our stars and depth playing relatively uninspired hockey.

Sullivan is at fault for not catering to Sprong, but that is not his job. His job is to win hockey games and for how mediocre some of our players have looked, he sure is doing well at that with combinations that look straight up asisine to most of us.

 

[K Fleur]

The standard does apply. He's sitting with Simon when Simon makes his mistakes. And short of injury news - Guentzel got benched for part of the game, too. He's been benched before.

I don't know what game you guys are watching. Sully hopes to get Sprong minutes was when he showed he could win a battle. The last 2-3 games, he deserves to not dress.

The excuses made for this kid are ridiculous. This goes for every single player - call it like you see it. I'm not saying you have to call him a bust, but stop making excuses for him, but then throwing other players under the bus when they make mistakes. If every time Jack Johnson made an error, people should say "Give him more minutes! He needs more minutes!" They don't. I'm a big fan of Sprong's skill set. Last night was pathetic at best. He looked so bad in such few minutes that it seems nearly impossible. Most players in his situation wouldn't even see the next game. He will.

Not comparable situations. Johnson has been/still is given opportunities his whole decade plus long career and he’s consistently shown himself to be a train wreck. We know what he is.

Sprong is 21 has played around a total of 300 minutes in the NHL. People don’t even know what he is and with him getting less than 9 minutes a night they’ll never know. There is a level of accountability that Sprong is being held to that is significantly higher than Johnson.

 

[Gurglesons]

**** that ****. Remember Montreal? Kid goes out and makes a great play creating a goal with the few minutes he has then rides pine for the rest of the game.

Don't even get into JJ. He makes mistake after mistake and still gets thrown out there.

Uh.. he was on the ice for the tying goal with Crosby at center, but you must’ve missed that while writing Sprong’s name in cursive on top of your notebook over and over again.

 

[Empoleon8771]

We have the 2nd best point percentage in the East with our stars and depth playing relatively uninspired hockey.

Sullivan is at fault for not catering to Sprong, but that is not his job. His job is to win hockey games and for how mediocre some of our players have looked, he sure is doing well at that with combinations that look straight up asisine to most of us.

To me, that would push me to play your young guys more instead of sitting them on the bench

The fact that they're doing well despite a lot of the team struggling is a great motivator to giving guys like Sprong and Simon chances, so they work through their growing pains and become better NHL contributors. It's not even a problem of "catering to Sprong", it's a problem of him literally not playing him. Same with Simon to a less extreme degree, although Simon only getting 4 minutes TOI last night really pushes him to the same level as Sprong with me.

 

[Gurglesons]

To me, that would push me to play your young guys more instead of sitting them on the bench

The fact that they're doing well despite a lot of the team struggling is a great motivator to giving guys like Sprong and Simon chances, so they work through their growing pains and become better NHL contributors.

Or you know.. they are going to get Hornqvist, Sid, Brassard, and Rust going because they are much more essentially to our long term success and have the history to back it up?

 

[ColePens]

I don't understand why you continue to ignore the impact that sitting on the bench does to a player. There's a massive difference between Johnson playing 22 minutes a night and making mistakes, and Sprong making a mistake on 1 of the 3 shifts he has in a game.

You want to comment on the excuses people are making for Sprong, why not look at the excuses you're making to justify Sullivan's bad usage of him? @Shady Machine is spot on when he says both are responsible here, yet you flat out said that Sullivan has done nothing wrong.

If you take your bias out of this for 1 second, and truly analyze the game, you have to ask yourself "What has Daniel Sprong actually shown me?" I mean that in preseason or any game. You definitely see talent but does he put it together? When he's 1 on 1, he can't even get his shot off. When he does get his shot off, it's not lethal at the NHL level. He's not a good skater and he poorly supports any offensive zone attacks.

The only true positive I can give him, being 100% unbiased, is that I love how he supports the breakout. I feel he comes low and supports the defense. But even with that, he makes the mistake of playing defense when he should hold his wing position. Last night was a clear example.

Even in the preseason, he just doesn't show as much as everyone wants him to. I swear to God if he was a 6th round pick, you guys would want him gone. If this guy was waiver eligible, he doesn't deserve up w/ the Pens.

Like I said - I call it like I see it. I'm not saying he's a bust. I know he's still young. I like his strengths, but how he puts it altogether at this time on the ice is not NHL worthy. Not even close.

 

[K Fleur]

Yeah that’s another one if we’re holding players like Spring/Simon accountable for playing bad then why the f*** is Rust getting time on the 1st line? He played 18 mostly useless minutes last night and I barely remember noticing him.

Maybe the most disappointing forward on this team after 7 games.

 

[Pancakes]

what i have seen from sprong and simon is a complete collapse in confidence as this season has gone on. both looked like entirely different players earlier in the season, and especially last season. sully’s fault. you can say yay or nay to individual games or plays and shifts. but this progression for these 2 guys is a disaster and it’s the coaching staffs fault. it’s just another developmental failure. we’re used to those. sully came in with a couple favorites from wbs and gave them everything they needed to flourish and it fooled us, but this isn’t a developmental team and that little gold rush has run out

I think it's a difficult situation right now where clearly all involved would rather have Sprong in WBS based on how he's being used.

They need to figure it out. Playing him this little all year is just such a waste of an asset.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Or you know.. they are going to get Hornqvist, Sid, Brassard, and Rust going because they are much more essentially to our long term success and have the history to back it up?

Playing Sprong more than 3 minutes a night isn't going to impact Hornqvist, Crosby, Brassard and Rust being able to start producing.

If you take your bias out of this for 1 second, and truly analyze the game, you have to ask yourself "What has Daniel Sprong actually shown me?" I mean that in preseason or any game. You definitely see talent but does he put it together? When he's 1 on 1, he can't even get his shot off. When he does get his shot off, it's not lethal at the NHL level. He's not a good skater and he poorly supports any offensive zone attacks.

The only true positive I can give him, being 100% unbiased, is that I love how he supports the breakout. I feel he comes low and supports the defense. But even with that, he makes the mistake of playing defense when he should hold his wing position. Last night was a clear example.

Even in the preseason, he just doesn't show as much as everyone wants him to. I swear to God if he was a 6th round pick, you guys would want him gone. If this guy was waiver eligible, he doesn't deserve up w/ the Pens.

Like I said - I call it like I see it. I'm not saying he's a bust. I know he's still young. I like his strengths, but how he puts it altogether at this time on the ice is not NHL worthy. Not even close.

Here's the thing, I don't disagree with what you're saying about his game. I disagree with how they're addressing his play, I don't think giving him hardly any ice time to start a game and then benching him when he inevitably makes a mistake will help improve those problems. I haven't been impressed with Sprong this year, because he looks slow (this is the biggest problem I've seen), he's not using his shot and the only positives I've seen from his game are his effort defensively and his playmaking (here and there). Benching him isn't the solution to that problem though, it's to play him and let him get into a rhythm. It's the same thing Sullivan said a week or 2 ago, the solution for Sprong to start playing his game is to start giving him consistent minutes and allow him the opportunity to show his talents. Playing him for 2 minutes in the 1st period and then benching him at the start of the 2nd period isn't going to do that.