Post-Game Talk: Pens 6, Oilers 5 - Connor May Be McJesus, But Sid is a Hockey God

[Shady Machine]

But that goes back to usage and role. I think we can all agree Sprong's not be good defensively. So why is Sullivan starting him 70% in the defensive zone?

Sprong's usage should actually be the inverse of what he's getting (70/30 for Ozone rather than 30/70).

Problem is that Sprong has done nothing in the offensive zone to warrant those starts. If we were starting Gladams in the ozone over Sprong, you'd have a point. But we aren't. Instead, we are starting Jake, Rust, Kessel, Hagelin, Hornqvist. Do any of those players deserve less Ozone starts vs Sprong?

I totally get the fit argument, but after 7 games it's clear that Sprong is doing NOTHING to modivate Sully to get him more minutes that suit his skills.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Problem is that Sprong has done nothing in the offensive zone to warrant those starts. If we were starting Gladams in the ozone over Sprong, you'd have a point. But we aren't. Instead, we are starting Jake, Rust, Kessel, Hagelin, Hornqvist. Do any of those players deserve less Ozone starts vs Sprong?

I totally get the fit argument, but after 7 games it's clear that Sprong is doing NOTHING to modivate Sully to get him more minutes that suit his skills.

You could make a strong argument for both Rust and Hags based solely on their lack of production.

 

[Bingo71]

I understand the vitriol toward Sprong but the reality is that the whole team is playing like shit defensively.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

We sure stopped bleeding goals and opportunities when Sprong/Simon got benched, right?

/s

 

[Shady Machine]

You could make a strong argument for both Rust and Hags based solely on their lack of production.

And I'm fine with that to be honest. I've been fairly consistent in suggesting Sully can throw Sprong out there with Sid and Jake in offensive zone starts. That said, I don't blame Sully for not doing it based on Sprong's play this year.

I'm not trying to totally absolve Sully of any responsibility, but I see far too much excuse making for Sprong. Dude has been bad.

 

[Gurglesons]

You could make a strong argument for both Rust and Hags based solely on their lack of production.

So.. you want Sprong on LW with Malkin and Hags and you want Rust playing more than 75% of his zone starts in the d-zone like he currently is?

Last night three more players had more advantageous zone start percentages. Brassard, Simon and Riikola than Sprong.

Rust literally did not take a single o-zone start last night at EV strength.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Pens with only 18 power play opportunities all year, two fewer than the next lowest.

2018-19 NHL Hockey Stats and League Leaders - Special Teams - National Hockey League - ESPN

Coincidence with their power play being so successful last year?

 

[Coastal Kev]

So.. you want Sprong on LW with Malkin and Hags and you want Rust playing more than 75% of his zone starts in the d-zone like he currently is?

Last night three more players had more advantageous zone start percentages. Brassard, Simon and Riikola than Sprong.

Rust literally did not take a single o-zone start last night at EV strength.

Hags had I believe 2 maybe 3 glorious setups last night that he fired directly into the pads. I haven't seen Sprong get any of those types of setups at 5 on 5 yet this year. Dare I say he would have had a much better chance of burying any if not all of those opportunities than Hags?

 

[Pancakes]

Pens with only 18 power play opportunities all year, two fewer than the next lowest.

2018-19 NHL Hockey Stats and League Leaders - Special Teams - National Hockey League - ESPN

Coincidence with their power play being so successful last year?

I don't feel like we're getting jobbed. We're not controlling play as much as we normally do. If we start grinding teams down in their end we'll get on the pp more.

 

[Andy99]

This argument about Sprong is circuitous and so silly...it’s the old chicken or egg debate and it goes nowhere....which came first Sprong sucking or Sprong being placed in a position to suck by the coaching staff? Some think the latter, some the former...whatever, I’m moving on....

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Problem is that Sprong has done nothing in the offensive zone to warrant those starts. If we were starting Gladams in the ozone over Sprong, you'd have a point. But we aren't. Instead, we are starting Jake, Rust, Kessel, Hagelin, Hornqvist. Do any of those players deserve less Ozone starts vs Sprong?

I totally get the fit argument, but after 7 games it's clear that Sprong is doing NOTHING to modivate Sully to get him more minutes that suit his skills.

I mean, neither of Rust or Hagelin are doing anything offensively this season. So theoretically, Sullivan could put Sprong on the ice when those lines start in the Ozone a shift here or there if he wants to get Sprong some offensive looks.

Sid's line starts the shift in the Ozone? Sprong lines up with Jake and Sid. Sid's line starts the shift in the Dzone or Nzone? Rust lines up with Jake and Sid.

 

[Shady Machine]

I mean, neither of Rust or Hagelin are doing anything offensively this season. So theoretically, Sullivan could put Sprong on the ice when those lines start in the Ozone a shift here or there if he wants to get Sprong some offensive looks.

Sid's line starts the shift in the Ozone? Sprong lines up with Jake and Sid. Sid's line starts the shift in the Dzone or Nzone? Rust lines up with Jake and Sid.

To the bolded, sure and I've advocated for as much.

Rust and Hagelin bring others things to the game that helps the team maintain possession in Ozone that Sprong seems incapable of doing as of now.

To summarize my view on the situation:
-Sully is not putting Sprong in the best position to succeed, but Sprong isn't doing anything in his limited time to show he deserves any more ice time.
-Sully's goal is to win games and playing Sprong more, based on the sample size we have, will at least in the short run, hurt those chances.
-If Sprong wants more ice time, he has to pay attention to the details of the game and execute on them because he's not talented enough to not have to (vs Kessel as an example) and still get ice time

 

[WayneSid9987]

My problem up front isn't necessarily Sprong/Simon getting benched but more the lack of experimentation and falling back into old habits of sliding Rust in with Sid.
But it seems they're using Sid as one of their checking lines atm so Rust being there makes some sense to me, atleast. I'd still prefer Horny there and Rust on lower lines tho.
I'd rather work towards your 3rd and 4th lines doing the heavy lifting defensively and maximizing the scoring output of Lines1/2.

Alot of the Simon/Sprong sitting tho are these games are close. The younger less defensive guys are always gonna see the pine. Sully's gonna look down his bench and see a Rust or Horny vs a Sprong(for instance) and pick the former every time in a tied game or up by a goal. It is what it is.

 

[Clare2904]

Missed the game last night

 

[Tom Hanks]

My problem up front isn't necessarily Sprong/Simon getting benched but more the lack of experimentation and falling back into old habits of sliding Rust in with Sid.
But it seems they're using Sid as one of their checking lines atm so Rust being there makes some sense to me, atleast. I'd still prefer Horny there and Rust on lower lines tho.
I'd rather work towards your 3rd and 4th lines doing the heavy lifting defensively and maximizing the scoring output of Lines1/2.

Alot of the Simon/Sprong sitting tho are these games are close. The younger less defensive guys are always gonna see the pine. Sully's gonna look down his bench and see a Rust or Horny vs a Sprong(for instance) and pick the former every time in a tied game or up by a goal. It is what it is.

L1, L3, and L4 have had 3 or 4 different looks each (a game or 2 minimum). Only HMK is the consistent line.

Sully would like more flexibility but he’s got 2 players he’s not trusting fully and all our games have been close besides 2 (one win, one loss)

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Vrana fought his way through it and earned the trust of the coach and it paid off eventually. I hope that happens with Sprong as well, but there is definitely responsibility on the player to figure it out. The coach, likewise, has to build some confidence in the player and take some chances over time.

I don't think this is an either/or situation in terms of blame. Sully isn't putting Sprong in the best position to succeed but Sprong isn't doing anything with his play to show he deserves more.

This is just what coaches do to young guys, but at least Vrana was given a ton of ice to start off the season last year.

So while Trotz gave Vrana plenty of ice to start off the season, when his effort slacked off, he called him out in Nov and said he was “in participation mode” and sent a message by putting him on the bench.

Vrana then went on a really nice streak after he was called out, but he dipped again and got sat in late Jan... and Trotz sent another message.

Then he got benched again in late Feb... so all in all he was scratched 9-10 times, and put on the fourth line quite often.

However, Trotz kept going back to him and giving Vrana chances and it paid off.

No idea what Sullivan will do with Sprong though, but getting benched, healthy scratched, and cast off to the fourth line doesn’t spell certain doom for a young guy.

 

[Andy99]

This is just what coaches do to young guys, but at least Vrana was given a ton of ice to start off the season last year.

So while Trotz gave Vrana plenty of ice to start off the season, when his effort slacked off, he called him out in Nov and said he was “in participation mode” and sent a message by putting him on the bench.

Vrana then went on a really nice streak after he was called out, but he dipped again and got sat in late Jan... and Trotz sent another message.

Then he got benched again in late Feb... so all in all he was scratched 9-10 times, and put on the fourth line quite often.

However, Trotz kept going back to him and giving Vrana chances and it paid off.

No idea what Sullivan will do with Sprong though, but getting benched, healthy scratched, and cast off to the fourth line doesn’t spell certain doom for a young guy.

Trotz realizes what Sully apparently does not— teams like the Pens and the Caps need to rely on these young kids as the core ages ....they’re still good enough that they won’t be getting high draft picks and the best prospects...so a little more falls on development and it’s not ideal for Sully that he has to do it at the nhl level but he has to do it....so suck it up...

I don’t see that Sully wants to give Sprong a chance but we’ll see....I’m really tired of Sully...the team hasn’t been good the last year + and imo he’s reached his shelf life....management should make a change, but they won’t...I hope he doesn’t have Tomlin tenure in this town...

 

[Gurglesons]

Trotz realizes what Sully apparently does not— teams like the Pens and the Caps need to rely on these young kids as the core ages ....they’re still good enough that they won’t be getting high draft picks and the best prospects...so a little more falls on development and it’s not ideal for Sully that he has to do it at the nhl level but he has to do it....so suck it up...

I don’t see that Sully wants to give Sprong a chance but we’ll see....I’m really tired of Sully...the team hasn’t been good the last year + and imo he’s reached his shelf life....management should make a change, but they won’t...I hope he doesn’t have Tomlin tenure in this town...

What are you even talking about? The post you quoted was saying that Trotz did similar things to Vrana.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Ignore. Please delete.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Trotz realizes what Sully apparently does not— teams like the Pens and the Caps need to rely on these young kids as the core ages ....they’re still good enough that they won’t be getting high draft picks and the best prospects...so a little more falls on development and it’s not ideal for Sully that he has to do it at the nhl level but he has to do it....so suck it up...

I don’t see that Sully wants to give Sprong a chance but we’ll see....I’m really tired of Sully...the team hasn’t been good the last year + and imo he’s reached his shelf life....management should make a change, but they won’t...I hope he doesn’t have Tomlin tenure in this town...

Someone posted earlier that the Pens aren’t a development team, which I couldn’t disagree with any more vehemently. Great org know how to chase cups and develop youth. It isn’t a one or the other scenario.

I think Sullivan has been way better at giving youth a chance than DB ever did. He even benched Maatta for Riikola, and while that isn’t the same scenario, it shows me he will scratch a beloved player for a guy playing better.

I think Sullivan is doing odd things with Sprong, especially putting him in the high slot on the PP when he damn well knows Sprong has had major success playing the LP and LHB in both jrs and the A... that’s just straight weird and makes me wonder what his motivation is there, because that’s probably the worst spot for Sprong imho.

However, there are what, 74-75 game left? I’ll save my outrage until March if things are still um, suspect.

 

[Will Hunting]

Funny stat.. Daniel Sprong has as many points as Derrick Brassard and Bryan Rust combined.. Even with his tragicomical icetime.. IMO there are much bigger problems than Sprong right now. Maatta, Johnson, Rust, Brassard have all been terrible.

 

[BladeRunner66]

Funny stat.. Daniel Sprong has as many points as Derrick Brassard and Bryan Rust combined.. Even with his tragicomical icetime.. IMO there are much bigger problems than Sprong right now. Maatta, Johnson, Rust, Brassard have all been terrible.

Agreed although i'm more worried about Sprong than the 4 you mentionned who can bounce back at any time. Sprong may lack the ice time but he doesn't deserve it, some say he's a Neal type of guy that needs O zone starts/opportunities but he has yet to prove that he's remotely close to being Neal worthy even if he seems to fit the mold. Until then Sully will juggle him around, i mean, if he had ice time to develop him correctly he would but: 1rst, Pens aren't exactly crushing their ennemies right now and 2nd, this is NHL, not development school.

 

[Gurglesons]

Funny stat.. Daniel Sprong has as many points as Derrick Brassard and Bryan Rust combined.. Even with his tragicomical icetime.. IMO there are much bigger problems than Sprong right now. Maatta, Johnson, Rust, Brassard have all been terrible.

Funny stat. Bryan Rust has the most ES goals in the playoffs after Guentzel in the last three years.

Brassard was leading in PPG behind Sid, Ovechkin and Malkin until last year’s injury.

Not really worried about it.

 

[ColePens]

Move to the off day thread.