Post-Game Talk: Pens 6, Oilers 5 - Connor May Be McJesus, But Sid is a Hockey God

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Tom Hanks

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You really don't like to look for trends...an average doesn't tell you anything...the last two games Cullen is playing about 15 minutes...way too much...

Would you have played him less in the Toronto game? He was a huge part of that line that helped us win. It's ok to play more in certain situations. He's a guy I'm happy to have out there in tight games in the 3rd period. No one plays exactly the same minutes every game but it averages out.
 

Gurglesons

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Would you have played him less in the Toronto game? He was a huge part of that line that helped us win. It's ok to play more in certain situations. He's a guy I'm happy to have out there in tight games in the 3rd period. No one plays exactly the same minutes every game but it averages out.

It’s also almost like we took 6 penalties or something last night and Cullen’s ice time will rise with the PK being deployed.

But, obviously it was because Sully hates Sprong and can not recognize that everyone Sprong plays with / our system are making Sprong’s elite shot unable to score 20 in 20.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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You obviously missed him giving up the tying goal and our 2 goal cushion by playing lazily along the boards.

How many times have Johnson or Maatta made worse plays with no repercussions?

Exactly.

There's no consistency to Sullivan's benchings, other than that Sprong's usually the scapegoat for all the team's problems despite how nonsensically he's been deployed.
 

Gurglesons

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How many times have Johnson or Maatta made worse plays with no repercussions?

Exactly.

Maybe when you have to resort to saying why and how to every goal that Sprong gets scored on him that should explain how flimsy your point is..

Simon and Sprong are the young players on this team. They are being treated nearly identical except Simon is being afforded slightly more ice time due to his positional flexibility, and the fact after last night he’s produced better at nearly every metric.

You can only control yourself in life.
 

SHOOTANDSCORE

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Just to add to what others have said regarding Sprong.

I also have noticed him repeatedly standing around with no separation from defenders, hoping for a pass. No one is going to pass it to him when he's covered. He has to work on moving his legs and moving in/out of soft spots.

He also needs to be much better possession wise. He's a disaster on the boards and can't win a battle to save his life. We can't have him ceding possession constantly. He has to improve there asap.

I think that if he's better at these things, then we can let him play through his other mistakes without hurting the team too much.


I might consider playing Grant and having Sprong and Simon rotate in and out of the line up for the time being. Maybe they can get them more minutes that way, having them better insulated, with only one playing in any given game.
 

Andy99

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Would you have played him less in the Toronto game? He was a huge part of that line that helped us win. It's ok to play more in certain situations. He's a guy I'm happy to have out there in tight games in the 3rd period. No one plays exactly the same minutes every game but it averages out.

Yes, I would play him less.. he's 42...get some other people pking...he's solid but I want him out there in tight games in March for a PO run and in April-June hopefully when we'll need him a lot more....
 

Tom Hanks

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Yes, I would play him less.. he's 42...get some other people pking...he's solid but I want him out there in tight games in March for a PO run and in April-June hopefully when we'll need him a lot more....

Points count for the same in October as in March. If we are in good standings from the get go its a lot easier to adjust peoples minutes during the season. If you are scrambling for a playoff spot like last season you just have to do whatever is necessary to win. Playoffs are an afterthought when its tight like that. All the decisions go into making it. I'd like us to keep that cushion.

Cullen has played between 8:44 and 15:21 (avg. 12:10) I wouldn't play him 15 minutes every night and he hasn't been but if its a good decision to help get the win I would. It wouldn't be smart in a tight game to say well Cullen's had 12 minutes so far, we could really use him for a few more shifts but we better not.
 

ncm7772

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Absolutely filthy goal by Sid.

The Pens have shockingly found a way to get points in 6 of 7, but man, this team has serious issues. TBH, I don't even think Murray was bad last night. Yeah, he can't let the McDavid goal slip in, but he got peppered all night.

Brassard, Cullen, Sheahan and Rust have just 2 goals between the 4 of them.

I'm not sure why Sullivan keeps dressing Sprong. Makes no sense to waste a spot to play someone 3-7 minutes.
 
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Empoleon8771

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Brassard, Cullen, Sheary and Rust have just 2 goals between the 4 of them.

I guess Sheary is falling over too much for me to see him on the ice for the Penguins :sarcasm:

Just looking at his stats with Buffalo, he's not doing too bad. His -7 in 9 games looks awful, but 3 goals and 4 points is decent production. He's getting spoon fed a lot of easy minutes (16:32 TOI/game with 70% offensive zone starts) and his 3 goals are all PP goals, but he's doing alright so far it seems like. I'm terrified to see who they're going to target and what they're going to trade to replace him though, because Simon sure as hell isn't cutting it.
 

ncm7772

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I gave you examples of how the ice time should progress and a player who did it correctly (Jake Guentzel). You give me examples of NHLers who screw up as much as Sprong and still get 15 minutes. Especially at his age, with nothing on the resume, with nothing standing out, etc. Why does he deserve to be different? Because of where he was drafted? Let the ice time progress if Sprong can go 2-3 games w/o being an absolute mess.

Agreed. He simply hasn't been good.

Who was the other linemate.

Look I'm not excusing Sprong, but I'm also not going to be blind to the other circumstances too. He has to play better, but he also is not being trusted or put in a spot where he can succeed either.

I also see your point here. But ultimately, should he really be playing more if he's truly bad right now? It's on him, not on HCMS. Sprong knows that he needs to do something to prove himself, and he's just gonna have to do that in the limited time he's going to see.
 

ncm7772

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I guess Sheary is falling over too much for me to see him on the ice for the Penguins :sarcasm:

Just looking at his stats with Buffalo, he's not doing too bad. His -7 in 9 games looks awful, but 3 goals and 4 points is decent production. He's getting spoon fed a lot of easy minutes (16:32 TOI/game with 70% offensive zone starts) and his 3 goals are all PP goals, but he's doing alright so far it seems like. I'm terrified to see who they're going to target and what they're going to trade to replace him though, because Simon sure as hell isn't cutting it.

LMAO, my bad. My phone has 'Sheahan' and 'Sheary' in autocorrect. Fixed it!
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Who was the other linemate.

Look I'm not excusing Sprong, but I'm also not going to be blind to the other circumstances too. He has to play better, but he also is not being trusted or put in a spot where he can succeed either.

This is my point with Sprong. Has he been great? No. But my issue is I don't think he's been put in a position to play to his strengths.

If Sprong got 12+ minutes per night alongside Brassard and still did nothing, you'd never hear a peep out of me. But the problem is he's a shooter who needs to play with a creative center who can get him the puck, but isn't being given that chance.

This is why I keep going back to the whole "you can't just expect every player to do it" mentality. Just because Rust can come in and be a 4th line player playing limited minutes as a rookie next to two defensive minded guys, doesn't mean all youngsters can.
 
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Gurglesons

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This is my point with Sprong. Has he been great? No. But my issue is I don't think he's been put in a position to play to his strengths.

If Sprong got 12+ minutes per night alongside Brassard and still did nothing, you'd never hear a peep out of me. But the problem is he's a shooter who needs to play with a creative center who can get him the puck, but isn't being given that chance.

This is why I keep going back to the whole "you can't just expect every player to do it" mentality. Just because Rust can come in and be a 4th line player playing limited minutes as a rookie next to two defensive minded guys, doesn't mean all youngsters can.

I’m sure we’d hear plenty of peeps tbh..
 

Sidney the Kidney

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I’m sure we’d hear plenty of peeps tbh..

From me you wouldn't. Literally the only thing I've complained about is him not getting played on a line that seems to compliment his skillset. If he gets played on said line and still fails, that would be 100% on Sprong at that point.
 

Shady Machine

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TR, if the team wants cheap ELC contributors to help them through Sid and Geno's twilight years, they're going to need to stop riding the Rowneys and Kuhns of the world into the ground and give talent the opportunity to shine.

Maybe when the Rusts and Hornqvists of the world have 1/3 of Sprong's points through 6 games despite getting a ton more opportunity, maybe they could even be moved down a line to give him a shot.

This is ridiculous since the Kuhn and Rowney of the team (Grant) hasn't played a single game while Sprong has played in all of them. Rust and Hornqvist are better players and shouldn't be pushed down line up in favor of Sprong based on the way Sprong is playing right now. He doesn't deserve it.
 

Shady Machine

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Yeah that’s another one if we’re holding players like Spring/Simon accountable for playing bad then why the **** is Rust getting time on the 1st line? He played 18 mostly useless minutes last night and I barely remember noticing him.

Maybe the most disappointing forward on this team after 7 games.

Three reasons:

1.He's better defensively at hockey and is not actively hurting the team in the possession game
2. He has a proven track record and has earned the coach's trust. As such, he will continue to get ice time to work his way out of it
3. Sprong looks worse so why would a coach swap out a poor performing Rust for a poorer performing Sprong? It just doesn't make a lot of sense to an NHL coach.
 

Shady Machine

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Just watching the highlights, I saw that Sprong got bumped off by Chiasson right before a goal. What else did he do that was poop?

It's not even that part of the play that's maddening. Watch what he does after being bumped off the puck. Does some weird loop in the wrong direction, leaving Chiasson wide open in the slot. That kind of stuff will get you benched when you are a young player and aren't doing things on the offensive side of the game.
 

ColePens

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I think there is a mutual ground here to all give/take a little.

- Is Sprong put in a great position to succeed? No
- Is it different from many other young players breaking into the league? Not really. Maybe a tad of debate here.
- Is he sucking badly in his role? Yes
- Is he giving the coaches any reason to give him more minutes? No

Does this mean he's an absolute bust? Hell no. There were so many other things to discuss. Let's get to it. :laugh:
 
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Shady Machine

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They aren't getting him the puck. They are going in straight lines to the net, and are ignoring him. Can you tell me on time Sheahan or Cullen got Sprong the puck in the offensive zone? Outside from cycling it along the wall.

Is he getting himself into spaces to be open?
As have, at varying times as well, the Geno-Phil combo, JJ, Maatta, Rust, Brass, Cullen and Sheahan, Sid, Riikola, and who am I missing? They've made mistakes at or below the blue line that directly led to goals by opposing teams in the first seven games...

Let me know when Geno and Phil completely stop producing. Sprong is playing the worst of all the forwards and has the most to prove. He's not being put in a position to make the most of his skillset, but he has to show the he has earned a promotion, at least to some degree. He hasn't done that.
 

Shady Machine

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How many times have Johnson or Maatta made worse plays with no repercussions?

Exactly.

There's no consistency to Sullivan's benchings, other than that Sprong's usually the scapegoat for all the team's problems despite how nonsensically he's been deployed.

Do Maatta and Johnson play wing? You can't bench 2 dmen in a game without taxing everyone else. Right or wrong, forwards are much easier to bench.

And for the record, Maatta was benched for a game for playing like shit. Sprong hasn't been benched for a whole game.
 
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Shady Machine

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This is my point with Sprong. Has he been great? No. But my issue is I don't think he's been put in a position to play to his strengths.

If Sprong got 12+ minutes per night alongside Brassard and still did nothing, you'd never hear a peep out of me. But the problem is he's a shooter who needs to play with a creative center who can get him the puck, but isn't being given that chance.

This is why I keep going back to the whole "you can't just expect every player to do it" mentality. Just because Rust can come in and be a 4th line player playing limited minutes as a rookie next to two defensive minded guys, doesn't mean all youngsters can.

The question what has Sprong shown in limited minutes that has warranted more minutes? I get the fit thing and best position to succeed thing, but other than draft pedigree, what is he doing on the ice to justify more ice time?

He has been on the ice 5 goals against in 47 minutes. That's a GA/60 of 6.4 which is highest on the team and 2 goals per 60 minutes higher than the next forward in Sheahan at 4.6. That's one stat, but I could point to others (shots for % of 33% is the lowest on team, corsi for % is the lowest on team, etc).

He's been bad by the eye test and every measurable stat.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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The question what has Sprong shown in limited minutes that has warranted more minutes? I get the fit thing and best position to succeed thing, but other than draft pedigree, what is he doing on the ice to justify more ice time?

He has been on the ice 5 goals against in 47 minutes. That's a GA/60 of 6.4 which is highest on the team and 2 goals per 60 minutes higher than the next forward in Sheahan at 4.6. That's one stat, but I could point to others (shots for % of 33% is the lowest on team, corsi for % is the lowest on team, etc).

He's been bad by the eye test and every measurable stat.

But that goes back to usage and role. I think we can all agree Sprong's not be good defensively. So why is Sullivan starting him 70% in the defensive zone?

Sprong's usage should actually be the inverse of what he's getting (70/30 for Ozone rather than 30/70).
 

Gurglesons

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But that goes back to usage and role. I think we can all agree Sprong's not be good defensively. So why is Sullivan starting him 70% in the defensive zone?

Sprong's usage should actually be the inverse of what he's getting (70/30 for Ozone rather than 30/70).

Because Crosby, Hornqvist, Kessel, Brassard, Malkin, and Guentze are all on our team.

Why would you give their o-zone starts to a player that can’t even get a shot on net?
 
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