Post-Game Talk: Pens 5, Blue Jackets 2 - Phil is PHAT

[The Old Master]

As I've made clear on this board countless times, I don't like Sidney Crosby. I enjoy watching him take abuse. That, and that alone, is the only logical reason I do not want the team to sign an enforcer.

I've found a new cause. jail ic

 

[71GenoMalkin]

That's a fair response (minus you basically writing off anyone that disagrees with you as belittling you). My issue with your point of view is that you aren't arguing honestly. You create caricatures of those you disagree with and argue those rather than the real questions being asked of you. In my opinion, unless John Scott is literally willing to be banned from the league to protect Crosby, it's not going to do a lick of good.

What the Pens actually need, and I would argue most here agree with you, is a tougher roster and guys that can drop the gloves while being a good hockey player. As Billybudd points out, those guys aren't easy to find and usually need to be drafted or overpaid for. Both Shero and JR deserve criticism for this problem and there aren't easy solutions.

Absolutely agree. Everybody grows a foot when you have these type of guys in the line up. No, they are not easy to come by, for sure. So maybe the alternative is a Kassian off waivers or a Prust for a late pick. I don't know. Like you said, no easy solutions. But waiting for the NHL to do something is not an option. They never have, It's always been the teams responsibility to protect their talent.

 

[Terrapin]

That's a fair response (minus you basically writing off anyone that disagrees with you as belittling you). My issue with your point of view is that you aren't arguing honestly. You create caricatures of those you disagree with and argue those rather than the real questions being asked of you. In my opinion, unless John Scott is literally willing to be banned from the league to protect Crosby, it's not going to do a lick of good.

What the Pens actually need, and I would argue most here agree with you, is a tougher roster and guys that can drop the gloves while being a good hockey player. As Billybudd points out, those guys aren't easy to find and usually need to be drafted or overpaid for. Both Shero and JR deserve criticism for this problem and there aren't easy solutions.

The problem me, and some people have is, those guys aren't all that hard to find. Sure, the Lucic's of the league, we aren't going to get. But there are plenty of guys that play with an edge that were/are available. They may not score as many goals or win as many faceoffs as a Cullen, Plots, etc, but you trade that off for a bigger, more physical player. And this organization has literally gone out of its way to avoid anybody with any size or toughness. And the guys that we did draft who actually were like this, we gave away for almost nothing.

I don't think anyone's screaming 'we need to sign John Scott'. But we're tired of watching the Despres', Sill's, Borts', Farnham's, Rupp's, Asham's, etc, etc sent packing and replaced by guys like Lovejoy, Goc, Spaling, etc, etc. And I'm sorry, but our team has done better when we had a bigger, more physical roster. That's just a fact. As soon as Mario either sells, or gets off this moral superiority crusade, this organization will get back to being a legitimate contender.

 

[Coastal Kev]

That's a fair response (minus you basically writing off anyone that disagrees with you as belittling you). My issue with your point of view is that you aren't arguing honestly. You create caricatures of those you disagree with and argue those rather than the real questions being asked of you. In my opinion, unless John Scott is literally willing to be banned from the league to protect Crosby, it's not going to do a lick of good.

What the Pens actually need, and I would argue most here agree with you, is a tougher roster and guys that can drop the gloves while being a good hockey player. As Billybudd points out, those guys aren't easy to find and usually need to be drafted or overpaid for. Both Shero and JR deserve criticism for this problem and there aren't easy solutions.

We are actually in agreement overall. I only defended the absurdity of Scott to show the absurdity of a player like Porter.

I had a thought today as I was out and about, name the last physical dman that was drafted and developed by the Pens. The only one I could come with was Chris Tamer and I don't even know if that's correct.

Merry Christmas to all!


Edit for Despres... But he doesn't count since he never played a full season for the team.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Dubinsky and Hartnell will do that to you

It's that gaping you know what, Torts and Dubi. Hartnell & Foligno are clowns obviously, but they doesn't bother nearly as much as those two idiots.

 

[Pancakes]

I'm all for some toughness but it has to be toughness that can play. Unfortunately such players are rare these days.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The problem me, and some people have is, those guys aren't all that hard to find. Sure, the Lucic's of the league, we aren't going to get. But there are plenty of guys that play with an edge that were/are available. They may not score as many goals or win as many faceoffs as a Cullen, Plots, etc, but you trade that off for a bigger, more physical player. And this organization has literally gone out of its way to avoid anybody with any size or toughness. And the guys that we did draft who actually were like this, we gave away for almost nothing.

I don't think anyone's screaming 'we need to sign John Scott'. But we're tired of watching the Despres', Sill's, Borts', Farnham's, Rupp's, Asham's, etc, etc sent packing and replaced by guys like Lovejoy, Goc, Spaling, etc, etc. And I'm sorry, but our team has done better when we had a bigger, more physical roster. That's just a fact. As soon as Mario either sells, or gets off this moral superiority crusade, this organization will get back to being a legitimate contender.

They are hard to find, and they are expensive, and we haven't exactly had extra expendable assets or cap space to overpay a Clarkson or a Horton, and we couldn't afford to give up a guy like Nino for Clutterbuck (who we were supposedly in on). Are the Isles really a better team without Nino's 24 goals last year, but with Clutterbuck's physicality and toughness? But that's another question, the point is they overpaid for that toughness, and a lot of Isles' fans have hated that deal since day one.

My point is not that we wouldn't benefit from having a Wilson or Clutterbuck, we obviously would, but I don't see those players as being available. Our options this past offseason were to re-sign Downie or Matt Cooke, or Bissonnette I guess. We didn't have the assets to get Lucic, and one year of him at 6m ended up costing the 13th overall pick plus some parts, is that really an option?

The problem here is that Shero drafted a bunch of midgets and D men, and now all we have is Sundqvist and Scott Wilson.

 

[billybudd]

The problem me, and some people have is, those guys aren't all that hard to find. Sure, the Lucic's of the league, we aren't going to get. But there are plenty of guys that play with an edge that were/are available. They may not score as many goals or win as many faceoffs as a Cullen, Plots, etc, but you trade that off for a bigger, more physical player. And this organization has literally gone out of its way to avoid anybody with any size or toughness. And the guys that we did draft who actually were like this, we gave away for almost nothing.

I think they're very hard to find at a reasonable age if you don't draft them. And drafting them is hard because for every guy who turns into Lucic, there's 50 who turn into Biggs.

Chris Neil-drafted
Matt Martin-drafted
Tom Wilson-drafted with a first round pick
Boone Jenner-drafted with a first round pick
Gudbranson-drafted with a first round pick
Clutterbuck-acquired in a trade. Cost was a blue chip 20 year old forward of a caliber we probably don't even have
Dubinsky-traded for an Olympian who was then viewed as the best player at his position

Sure there are guys like Farnham or Oleksy to be had for cheap, periodically. Or old, expensive over the hill guys like Hartnell or Doan. But, apart from Hartnell and Doan (whose contributions at this point are questionable) they're not 15 minute a night roster players.

Ignoring an all-star like Lucic, the guys with jam who skate a regular shift and would probably have made it even if they weren't ornery SOBs just don't become available all that often, unless you've already got them on a minor league deal before they develop. If you pull them out of UFA, it costs triple what it should (see Engelland, Deryk).

 

[Jacob]

It's weird that Shero didn't draft a whole hell of a lot of toughness when he was here. That seems like that'd be right up his alley. He certainly didn't put a priority on skill or upside, that's for sure.

I don't think the Penguins are far off from the amount of toughness that is necessary to at least not get intimidated out of the arena against some teams. You don't need to be equally tough or tougher than some teams, you just need guys that can answer to that sort of stuff and do a little intimidating of their own. Get in Dubinsky's face and maybe take him off the ice for 5 minutes or give him something that'll distract him, even if only slightly, from his task of pummeling Crosby on every shift.

Basically to quantify it I think I'd be satisfied with 1 tough forward and 1 tough defenseman. Based on guys that might be available in trade or free agency, just imagine the current roster but add a guy like Prust to the 4th line and a guy like Polak to the 2nd or 3rd d-pairing. It wouldn't make us the Flyers of the 70s, or even the Blue Jackets or Jets of today, but we might not be the league's easiest pushovers as we are now. Even if it only acts as a placebo affect for Sid and Geno and makes them *think* they're a little safer out there, and have more room, and aren't seeing as much abuse, that can go a long way.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

They are hard to find, and they are expensive, and we haven't exactly had extra expendable assets or cap space to overpay a Clarkson or a Horton, and we couldn't afford to give up a guy like Nino for Clutterbuck (who we were supposedly in on). Are the Isles really a better team without Nino's 24 goals last year, but with Clutterbuck's physicality and toughness? But that's another question, the point is they overpaid for that toughness, and a lot of Isles' fans have hated that deal since day one.

My point is not that we wouldn't benefit from having a Wilson or Clutterbuck, we obviously would, but I don't see those players as being available. Our options this past offseason were to re-sign Downie or Matt Cooke, or Bissonnette I guess. We didn't have the assets to get Lucic, and one year of him at 6m ended up costing the 13th overall pick plus some parts, is that really an option?

The problem here is that Shero drafted a bunch of midgets and D men, and now all we have is Sundqvist and Scott Wilson.

Shero's drafting, especially when it came to forwards, really was odd. They were neither big, hulking types nor particularly skilled guys with high risk/high reward upsides. It's like he drafted based on a template of Chris Kunitz or Pascal Dupuis. Average size, with some wheels, some defensive acumen.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Shero's drafting, especially when it came to forwards, really was odd. They were neither big, hulking types nor particularly skilled guys with high risk/high reward upsides. It's like he drafted based on a template of Chris Kunitz or Pascal Dupuis. Average size, with some wheels, some defensive acumen.

He went for Keven Veilleux on the hulk end of things and that was a disaster.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Shero's drafting, especially when it came to forwards, really was odd. They were neither big, hulking types nor particularly skilled guys with high risk/high reward upsides. It's like he drafted based on a template of Chris Kunitz or Pascal Dupuis. Average size, with some wheels, some defensive acumen.

Yeah, well, I couldn't look at his time here and tell you what a Penguins player was. So I guess it's fitting. I think it was supposed to be hard working types who would grind things out... Then I look at the drafting and Neal and Jokinen and Sutter and the core... But it was probably a desire for Kunitz, Dupuis, Scuderi, Orpik, Adams and Staal the 2nd generation.

 

[Tender Rip]

He went for Keven Veilleux on the hulk end of things and that was a disaster.

But it wasn't.... IMO.
KV showed enormous potential, and had spells of domination. Size, skill, PP QB'ing and winning fights. We were salivating here. He ended up being injured all the time and thus never making it to the show, but them's the breaks. That's bad luck - the pick was IMO one of the best Shero ever made. I'd rather waste three picks in the 2nd-4th range for one such player to pan out. Most picks end up inconsequential.