Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Empoleon8771]

Unless you have a direct line to the FO, and know for certain what they think of Rust.... I'll agree to disagree here and stand by my thoughts.

I mean if we're going the route of "we don't know anything about what the front office thinks", why are you assuming that they think Rust had a bad year last year? Sullivan gave no indication that was the case, Rust was in the top-6 for the entire season.

I think people here are just extrapolating their own opinion and hopes on the team. I don't see anything that makes me think the team is unhappy with Rust or Rust is unhappy with being in Pittsburgh. And unless Rust becomes unhappy in Pittsburgh, why would he waive his NMC on the contract he signed last off-season?

 

[mephisto1812]

I mean if we're going the route of "we don't know anything about what the front office thinks", why are you assuming that they think Rust had a bad year last year? Sullivan gave no indication that was the case, Rust was in the top-6 for the entire season.

I'm saying what I think would happen, and what I would try. Kind of the point of this message board no? To discuss opinions and thoughts about the team, strategies employed, and roster decisions that are or could be made?

Let me reiterate that I agree to disagree with your thoughts and opinions on this one, just as you are more than welcome to disagree with mine.

 

[Peat]

a) The only Pens front office left from last season is, uh, Trevor Daley? And the three analytics people. I don't think what they think of Rust particularly matters here and we have no way of knowing what they think.

b) We also don't know what Dubas and Spezza think of our roster and performance either, and that's the important one.

c) Given how absolutely non-viable our non-top 6 wingers were last year, and how Sully removed Rust from PP1, I'm loath to say you can be sure about what Sully thinks of him either

d) None of this matters if Rust's opinion is he gave up money to stay where he felt comfortable and that he'd back himself to regain any trust lost, if there was any, so he's going to stay. Which is the probable scenario right now. Maybe there's some places he'd be interested in if the team approached him and said there was a trade and a potentially bigger role - Detroit and St Louis seem the obvious two - but that's all speculation.

You never know, but you do also know that if you're rolling two dice, you're probably not rolling a 12.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The lesson I'm choosing to take away from this discussion is that BOTH players are mediocre/fraught with pitfalls.

 

[eXile3]

JR told Hornqvist that he'd waive Hornqvist if he didn't waive his NTC. Dubas doesn't have the power to do that to Rust because Rust has a NMC, not a NTC.

Also, it's false to say that players with NMCs get traded all of the time. The only players I can recall who have been traded with a full NMC in recent years were all rentals (Giroux, Kane and Iginla stand out). Players who demand NMCs pretty much only get traded if they want out or if they're rentals on bad teams.

I mean…

Giroux, Kane, Tarasenko, Pacioretty, McDonagh, Murray, Petry, Zucker, Hornqvist, Mathenson…

Just to name a few. Now they weren’t all full NMC but it seems more common than people think.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think it's also worth pointing out that Rust had his 2nd son just 3 months ago, so that would make me believe he'd have even less interest in waiving his NMC right now.

I mean…

Giroux, Kane, Tarasenko, Pacioretty, McDonagh, Murray, Petry, Zucker, Hornqvist, Mathenson…

Just to name a few. Now they weren’t all full NMC but it seems more common than people think.

The difference between a NMC that Rust has and a NTC that the guys you listed have is astronomic. Teams can force waivers on players if they won't waive their NTCs. You can't do that with NMCs. For players with a NMC, they hold all of the cards regarding being moved.

None of the guys you listed beyond Giroux, Kane and Petry had a NMC, and Giroux and Kane were moved as rentals and Petry demanded a trade.

 

[Freeptop]

I'm at the point where I'm just ready to move on from all of the UFAs, just to try to freshen things up. It's not like I'm expecting them to go on a Cup run either way, so let's at least try changing things up in hopes of at least making the team more fun to watch again.

Ideally, the UFAs would all be replaced with players under the age of 30, though that would likely require making trades, since that would eliminate the majority of the available UFAs...

(And man, does typing that last sentence make me feel extra old, since Cullen was the last Penguin who was close to my age... )

 

[Peat]

I mean…

Giroux, Kane, Tarasenko, Pacioretty, McDonagh, Murray, Petry, Zucker, Hornqvist, Mathenson…

Just to name a few. Now they weren’t all full NMC but it seems more common than people think.

The only full no trade clauses that weren't rentals chasing a cup on that list are McDonagh and Hornqvist.

Guys with full NTCs and term agreeing to moves are rare.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The only full no trade clauses that weren't rentals chasing a cup on that list are McDonagh and Hornqvist.

Guys with full NTCs and term agreeing to moves are rare.

And both of those guys were moved because their GMs said they'd go on waivers if they wouldn't approve of a trade.

Back in November 2005, Anaheim traded Sergei Fedorov to Columbus. The Blue Jackets then put Todd Marchant on waivers, where he was claimed by the Ducks. At the time, then-GMs Brian Burke and Doug MacLean claimed there was nothing fishy — “just a coincidence!” — but they are bad liars. Plus, they’ve now admitted it was set up to get around Marchant’s no-trade. Patric Hornqvist realized that Pittsburgh could have put him on waivers, and Florida was going to claim him. The Panthers wanted him badly.

“He had some control with the no-trade, but the no-trade isn’t a no-move (clause),” Kypreos said. “And, apparently, if he didn’t agree to be traded, he was going to be waived and Tampa had a commitment from Columbus to claim him, is what I heard … and now it’s, ‘You want to go to Columbus, or you want to go to Nashville?’ ”

First report was from Friedman, second was from Kypreos.

 

[Ryder71]

Zucker is most likely priced out of our line up, he had a good contract year performance. I *HATE* rewarding people for finally livnig up to what you expected all along only because they finally show it to you in a contract year. Yes in this case injuries had a huge role.
We want to do two things with this team as it pertains to skaters.
Get younger, Get faster. Zucker will want a contract that is gonna age like a forgotten piece of fish under the car seat in the hot sun. 31 isn't ancient but his physical style will wear him down faster, we saw it this season playing well then not for a span where he is recovering.

I do like Zucker, alot. Not sure how he fits here though if he's wanting 6M for 6 years which is probably what he can get elsewhere, someone will pay that and he'd be dumb to turn down the money if there is a big diff. some projections have him at 5.4M. that's probably ok the first 2 years but once again see fish analogy. meh in duba we trust here...

Zucker was largely healthy for grand total of one season here, ironically enough it was in his final year of his contract. It would be poor Asset Management to give a guy with his injury history and at his age another contract. Thanks but no thanks, see you!

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Going back to Zucker and his time in Pittsburgh, @Peat pretty much already nailed it.

Zucker was going through his injury woes, he would come back and either Geno or Kapanen would get hurt. It was an ugly stretch for everyone. With that said and the inconsistencies of musical chairs with linemates. Its kind of tough to get anything going when your with Malkin one week and Heinen/Carter the next. Zucker was still producing, just not at the level expected and for the reasons I stated I think being a big part of it.

Throughout Zuckers career he was never a guy to shy away and automatically "step it up" just because it was a contract year. He got to where he is in the NHL b/c he's got a motor and puts it out there shift to shift. He was never a guy to get injuried alot either and as we all know those core injuries will linger for a little while.

Zucker when playing and not playing hurt has been one of our better wingers and the team seems to love his fight

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Zucker is most likely priced out of our line up, he had a good contract year performance. I *HATE* rewarding people for finally livnig up to what you expected all along only because they finally show it to you in a contract year. Yes in this case injuries had a huge role.
We want to do two things with this team as it pertains to skaters.
Get younger, Get faster. Zucker will want a contract that is gonna age like a forgotten piece of fish under the car seat in the hot sun. 31 isn't ancient but his physical style will wear him down faster, we saw it this season playing well then not for a span where he is recovering.

I do like Zucker, alot. Not sure how he fits here though if he's wanting 6M for 6 years which is probably what he can get elsewhere, someone will pay that and he'd be dumb to turn down the money if there is a big diff. some projections have him at 5.4M. that's probably ok the first 2 years but once again see fish analogy. meh in duba we trust here...

The big thing with Zucker is it might not be about the money, there might only be a few places he wants to play 2 of them being Minnesota and Pittsburgh. It was questioned he would even come here because of his family in the 1st place, hes seems to like it here.

Only reason I am holding out a little hope we may be able to get him on a nice team friendly. That's the only way I would want him.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I doubt Rust will be traded. But I do think a smart GM like Dubas will have or already has had conversations with pretty much everyone on the team who conceivably could be part of the 2023-24 roster.

And some of those conversations could be about that player's future. It would be very fair for Dubas to chat with Rust, ask him what his mindset was when he signed the extension, how he feels about the direction of the team, and then ask about the NMC.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask Rust if there is a team he'd waive for or if he's 10000% locked in on being a Penguin. Dubas has to see what options are available for him to reshape the team, even if it's an extraordinarily unlikely option.

 

[Pens x]

Zucker was largely healthy for grand total of one season here, ironically enough it was in his final year of his contract. It would be poor Asset Management to give a guy with his injury history and at his age another contract. Thanks but no thanks, see you!

It seems like a lot of posters have forgotten about his injury plagued seasons.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I doubt Rust will be traded. But I do think a smart GM like Dubas will have or already has had conversations with pretty much everyone on the team who conceivably could be part of the 2023-24 roster.

And some of those conversations could be about that player's future. It would be very fair for Dubas to chat with Rust, ask him what his mindset was when he signed the extension, how he feels about the direction of the team, and then ask about the NMC.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask Rust if there is a team he'd waive for or if he's 10000% locked in on being a Penguin. Dubas has to see what options are available for him to reshape the team, even if it's an extraordinarily unlikely option.

All of this is totally reasonable and I don't think anyone here disagrees. The disagreement is asking why Rust would even consider waiving his NMC. He signed the deal a year ago and just had his second child 3 months ago.

Dubas should be getting the status on all of his players and asking if they'd be looking for a change or if they're happy where they're at. I just don't see any reason to think Rust would say anything but he's content or better.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I'm at the point where I'm just ready to move on from all of the UFAs, just to try to freshen things up. It's not like I'm expecting them to go on a Cup run either way, so let's at least try changing things up in hopes of at least making the team more fun to watch again.

Ideally, the UFAs would all be replaced with players under the age of 30, though that would likely require making trades, since that would eliminate the majority of the available UFAs...

(And man, does typing that last sentence make me feel extra old, since Cullen was the last Penguin who was close to my age... )

You might not be expecting them to go on a cup run but I can sure as shit guarantee you Dubas, Sullivan, Crosby, Malkin and Letang do and that's all that matters.

Many of you dont believe in them and that's fine but Id rather put my money behind those guys then some guys sitting on their laptops and iphones doubting them (me included)

It will definitely be interesting and that what FSG has hired Dubas to do.............compete now

 

[Ryder71]

It seems like a lot of posters have forgotten about his injury plagued seasons.

And those people are imbeciles of Epic proportion. I on the other hand have a mind like a steel trap, I remember everything! I'm kind of a hero if you really think about it. All the men want to be me, all the women come to see me!

 

[DesertedPenguin]

All of this is totally reasonable and I don't think anyone here disagrees. The disagreement is asking why Rust would even consider waiving his NMC. He signed the deal a year ago and just had his second child 3 months ago.

Dubas should be getting the status on all of his players and asking if they'd be looking for a change or if they're happy where they're at. I just don't see any reason to think Rust would say anything but he's content or better.

I think it's extremely unlikely he'd waive, too. But there might be one or two scenarios. I have no idea what his family situation is, but maybe there would be an appeal for him to play in Detroit as a Michigan native. Maybe he has extended family there, making it easier to have help with two kids while he's on the road.

That's probably one of the only scenarios that would be reasonable. Rust signed here for a reason and added a NMC for a reason. It'd likely take something very unique and specific for him to waive, but you have to ask.

 

[Pens x]

And those people are imbeciles of Epic proportion. I on the other hand have a mind like a steel trap, I remember everything! I'm kind of a hero if you really think about it. All the men want to be me, all the women come to see me!

Except when it comes to your opinion on Hextall…

“I’ll give him until after the deadline before criticizing him.”

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I mean if we're going the route of "we don't know anything about what the front office thinks", why are you assuming that they think Rust had a bad year last year? Sullivan gave no indication that was the case, Rust was in the top-6 for the entire season.

I think people here are just extrapolating their own opinion and hopes on the team. I don't see anything that makes me think the team is unhappy with Rust or Rust is unhappy with being in Pittsburgh. And unless Rust becomes unhappy in Pittsburgh, why would he waive his NMC on the contract he signed last off-season?

I am very pessimistic that they might consider moving Rust. If it is strictly up to Sullivan and Rust, he is probably retiring here. Dubas is the only guy who was not here who could conceivably change things. BUT, Dubas is more likely to continue to hand out NMCs and NTCs like candy, as opposed to actually talking with Rust to see where he might have interest in playing if not here. I am sure if prodded, Rust could accept to waive for a few select teams, but I highly doubt Dubas is the guy to go in there and disrupt that apple cart.

Then again, if the object is to make this team younger (and you would have to be a complete non-fan to think otherwise), how is Dubas going to do so without asking someone/anyone to waive some sort of clause? Rust, Petry, maybe Pettersson...other than moving Granlund and maybe DeSmith, how else can this team get younger (AND better)?

Dubas HAS to at least ask Rust to waive. He has to. That is what doing GM work for this team at this time is all about. Will he, though?

I highly doubt it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I am very pessimistic that they might consider moving Rust. If it is strictly up to Sullivan and Rust, he is probably retiring here. Dubas is the only guy who was not here who could conceivably change things. BUT, Dubas is more likely to continue to hand out NMCs and NTCs like candy, as opposed to actually talking with Rust to see where he might have interest in playing if not here. I am sure if prodded, Rust could accept to waive for a few select teams, but I highly doubt Dubas is the guy to go in there and disrupt that apple cart.

Then again, if the object is to make this team younger (and you would have to be a complete non-fan to think otherwise), how is Dubas going to do so without asking someone/anyone to waive some sort of clause? Rust, Petry, maybe Pettersson...other than moving Granlund and maybe DeSmith, how else can this team get younger (AND better)?

Dubas HAS to at least ask Rust to waive. He has to. That is what doing GM work for this team at this time is all about. Will he, though?

I highly doubt it.

And then Rust will extremely likely say "I signed a deal with a NMC and I intend on staying here", and that's the end of the conversation. Again, Dubas can ask all he wants. It's just incredibly unlikely that Rust would even entertain the idea, nor should people expect him to entertain the idea.

The situation is strictly up to Rust. That's what a NMC means

 

[3ladesof5teel]

And those people are imbeciles of Epic proportion. I on the other hand have a mind like a steel trap, I remember everything! I'm kind of a hero if you really think about it. All the men want to be me, all the women come to see me!

Such a steel trap that you remember Jason Zucker has had 2 "injury plagued" seasons in his 10+ years in the NHL

He should be nicknamed the infirmary

We are lucky to have you here

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The big thing with Zucker is it might not be about the money, there might only be a few places he wants to play 2 of them being Minnesota and Pittsburgh. It was questioned he would even come here because of his family in the 1st place, hes seems to like it here.

Only reason I am holding out a little hope we may be able to get him on a nice team friendly. That's the only way I would want him.

It is just way too eerily similar to Rust last season. If we cannot move Rust, and it is probable that we cannot, then why would this team back itself into another corner with Zucker?

Dubas has some strengths as a GM (the only reason why I am still posting on this board). Contract negotiation is not one. Sure, he can and will have to find some hidden gems here and there (and hopefully not only former Leafs), but he hands out NMC/NTCs too easily and does not get great value with long-term deals. Zucker is just way too scary to be re-signing at this time.

And again, how is this team getting younger if they re-sign their UFAs?

And then Rust will extremely likely say "I signed a deal with a NMC and I intend on staying here", and that's the end of the conversation. Again, Dubas can ask all he wants. It's just incredibly unlikely that Rust would even entertain the idea, nor should people expect him to entertain the idea.

The situation is strictly up to Rust. That's what a NMC means

I agree. But it would not be good GMing not to at least talk to him, and even talk to a few other teams about Rust.

You might not be expecting them to go on a cup run but I can sure as shit guarantee you Dubas, Sullivan, Crosby, Malkin and Letang do and that's all that matters.

Many of you dont believe in them and that's fine but Id rather put my money behind those guys then some guys sitting on their laptops and iphones doubting them (me included)

It will definitely be interesting and that what FSG has hired Dubas to do.............compete now

You can "compete" in this league without thinking "Stanley Cup or bust". That shit has to change with this franchise yesterday. This mentality should have been dropped six years ago. We would be already retooled at this point had they done so.

Stop kicking the can down the street.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I agree. But it would not be good GMing not to at least talk to him, and even talk to a few other teams about Rust.

Talking to other teams about Rust makes no sense unless Rust shows he's willing to waive his NMC. Dubas should be spending his entire focus on improving the team in ways he can actually accomplish. He should ask all of his players about what they think of the team and whether they're still committed to the team, but that's the extent of it. If they say no, he needs to move on and focus on improving the roster in ways he can improve the roster.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Dubas has some strengths as a GM (the only reason why I am still posting on this board). Contract negotiation is not one. Sure, he can and will have to find some hidden gems here and there (and hopefully not only former Leafs), but he hands out NMC/NTCs too easily and does not get great value with long-term deals. Zucker is just way too scary to be re-signing at this time.

And again, how is this team getting younger if they re-sign their UFAs?

My thoughts are to have either Rust or Zucker play the middle 6 on this team, they both can and we would be that much deeper with them there knowing they could move anywhere in a pinch. Those teams with depth win.

We can still get younger filling out the lineup and look for a solid top 6 young guy.

I am not saying roll the same lines as last season. I wouldn't mind seeing 1 of Rust/Zucker on L3 for stretches.

You can "compete" in this league without thinking "Stanley Cup or bust". That shit has to change with this franchise yesterday. This mentality should have been dropped six years ago. We would be already retooled at this point had they done so.

Stop kicking the can down the street.

"Retooled" ?

Lol..........ask Buffalo, Edmonton etc how Retooled works

Let me guess you think after Sid is gone this team will be "competing" again in 5 years.

I think alot of posters are going to have a real hard time during this "retool"

And I guarantee you its cup or bust for those guys