Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: November - Go home Sully, you're drunk

[Gurglesons]

Why does a player have to be a 40 goal scorer in order for him to fit the bill as someone who can pick his spots? Forsberg's scored (or paced for) 30+ goals on multiple occasions without the benefit of an elite center to play with. I'd say that's an indication that he's a pretty good sniper.

I'm not saying he's Ovechkin or Matthews. I'm saying he's a winger who's got a scoring touch and can actually pick the corners on a regular basis, something the majority of our wingers can't do.

I dunno. He has never struck me as a guy whose setting up at the point and slapping them in.

What he is is exactly what he's been billed as: a skilled winger with durability issues who consistently produces at a 60+ point per season pace despite never playing with good scoring line centers, who'd instantly become at worst our 2nd best winger, and whose skillset would complement our superstars on the PP.

RyJo was very good in some of those years. It ain’t like he’s been playing with Charlie Coyle.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

well unless he’s willing to sign an extension with them…as a pure rental, no

But why would a rebuilding team want that?

Let's say you're Ottawa. Why are you trading a 1st (which might be a top 5 pick) and one of your highly touted 19/20 year olds to acquire Letang, even if it's long term? By the time you're ready to contend, Letang's going to be 37/38 years old.

At his age, the only teams who'll be interested are current contenders who think they're missing either that top pairing defenseman (like Edmonton on their right side) or want to shore up their top four (like Toronto to replace Holl). It won't be teams like Ottawa or Buffalo, who are years away from being in position to contend.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I dunno. He has never struck me as a guy whose setting up at the point and slapping them in.

RyJo was very good in some of those years. It ain’t like he’s been playing with Charlie Coyle.

Interesting.

What constitutes a very good scoring line forward? Is it scoring at a 60+ point pace?

 

[Gurglesons]

Interesting.

What constitutes a very good scoring line forward? Is it scoring at a 60+ point pace?

Where have I ever said Forsberg wasn’t a good scoring line forward?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I dunno. He has never struck me as a guy whose setting up at the point and slapping them in.

What does the bolded have to do with what I'm describing? Jake, at his best, could pick the corners. Sid can pick the corners. Neither of those guys take bombs from the point.

I'm talking about players who get a scoring chance and can aim for the openings rather than just get a shot on net.

 

[Andy99]

But why would a rebuilding team want that?

Let's say you're Ottawa. Why are you trading a 1st (which might be a top 5 pick) and one of your highly touted 19/20 year olds to acquire Letang, even if it's long term? By the time you're ready to contend, Letang's going to be 37/38 years old.

At his age, the only teams who'll be interested are current contenders who think they're missing either that top pairing defenseman (like Edmonton on their right side) or want to shore up their top four (like Toronto to replace Holl). It won't be teams like Ottawa or Buffalo, who are years away from being in position to contend.

idk…NJD just spent $9 mil AAV for Hamilton and they’re not a contender

 

[Gurglesons]

What does the bolded have to do with what I'm describing? Jake, at his best, could pick the corners. Sid can pick the corners. Neither of those guys take bombs from the point.

I'm talking about players who get a scoring chance and can aim for the openings rather than just get a shot on net.

I mean, Carter, Zucker, Kapanen, Rodrigues and Rust can all do that.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Where have I ever said Forsberg wasn’t a good scoring line forward?

If RyJo in Nashville is the standard for a very good forward in certain years, Forsberg obviously qualifies as consistently being a very good forward too.

Then the question becomes: why not add a very good forward to this roster? Especially one whose skillset would complement our stars well?

Your reason seems to be because they're a hair out of a playoff spot with 65+ games to go, despite being the most injury-riddled team in the league.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I mean, Carter, Zucker, Kapanen, Rodrigues and Rust can all do that.

Yet none of them have consistently done it at a 60+ point pace.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yet none of them have consistently done it at a 60+ point pace.

None of them outside of Zucker had the benefit of being fed top line and top forward usage on a team with little forward depth.

Rust has been at a 60 pt pace since being put in a top six role. And a 30 goal pace.

Zucker was on a 60 pt pace two of the last four years when used in that role.

 

[Gurglesons]

My issue with Forsberg is not necessarily his play. If we sign him in UFA, I’d be very happy. If we are moving Zucker, a 1st and Poulin for him I question wtf we are doing.

I think this team in general will be identical if we bring in Forsberg and move out Zucker.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think you're talking full silly if you don't think every single team in the league would at least kick the tires on Letang at 50% retained--which would be just north of $3.5 million. He's still a top-10, top-15 blueliner in the league and at less than most middle pairing guys make, everybody would be interested. It'd just be a matter of this team wanting to deal him as opposed to lose him for nothing this summer and then picking the right return for the guy.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

None of them outside of Zucker had the benefit of being fed top line and top forward usage on a team with little forward depth.

Rust has been at a 60 pt pace since being put in a top six role. And a 30 goal pace.

Zucker was on a 60 pt pace two of the last four years when used in that role.

Benefit? Forsberg is outproducing all of our wingers save Guentzel without the benefit of playing with elite centers.

He is a creator. None of our other wingers fit that bill, Guentzel included. If you want to act like Rust or Zucker do that too, I'm not sure what to say.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think you're talking full silly if you don't think every single team in the league would at least kick the tires on Letang at 50% retained--which would be just north of $3.5 million. He's still a top-10, top-15 blueliner in the league and at less than most middle pairing guys make, everybody would be interested. It'd just be a matter of this team wanting to deal him as opposed to lose him for nothing this summer and then picking the right return for the guy.

Why is he signing anywhere else that isn’t a contender and not signing here?

Your argument as usual makes no sense.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

idk…NJD just spent $9 mil AAV for Hamilton and they’re not a contender

They also spent a shitload on PK Subban and weren't a contender. Chicago spent a shitload on Seth Jones and he sucks, and that team's not a contender.

The idea that a team would have to be on the cusp of a Cup in order to be interested in Letang seems off to me. Likewise, the idea that Letang isn't gonna ask for the moon and stars this summer--likely pricing out a lot of contenders--seems off to me.

There's zero reason for me to believe every team wouldn't be at least somewhat interested in Letang for pennies on the dollar cap-wise. Spending $3.65 million on a legit #1 d-man for a push at the playoffs (non-contender) or legit push for the Cup is a no-brainer.

I'm not talking about if he'd re-sign where he's traded. I'm saying if we shopped him at 50% retained at the deadline (assuming contract talks were at an impasse and we were out of the playoffs), that every team close to a playoff position would be seriously interested. We'd have a bunch of offers to sift through and I have an extremely hard time believing there wouldn't be an offer on the table that amounted to a big return.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

It's one reason I can't stand that we don't use Kap on the PK.

Amen. Imagine getting a solid Pker and not use him.

One thing I will say about the Leafs that they do right. Marner knows how to PK so they give him PK minutes while he is young.

Boston has Marchand and Bergeron and they look like studs.

Top 6 players can PK.

Also agree with the Kovalchuk comment. He was a baller.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Amen. Imagine getting a solid Pker and not use him.

One thing I will say about the Leafs that they do right. Marner knows how to PK so they give him PK minutes while he is young.

Boston has Marchand and Bergeron and they look like studs.

Top 6 players can PK.

Also agree with the Kovalchuk comment. He was a baller.

I get not wanting to have your top guys out there potentially taking shots off their ankles, but I hate the idea of worthless plugs being on teams because they're PK specialists. If a guy sucks at ES and can't play on the PP, the ~4 minutes a night on the PK you're playing him isn't worth keeping him around. Teach some other guy to get his stick in lanes and work on anticipating the puck movement on the PK, etc.

 

[Gurglesons]

They also spent a shitload on PK Subban and weren't a contender. Chicago spent a shitload on Seth Jones and he sucks, and that team's not a contender.

The idea that a team would have to be on the cusp of a Cup in order to be interested in Letang seems off to me. Likewise, the idea that Letang isn't gonna ask for the moon and stars this summer--likely pricing out a lot of contenders--seems off to me.

There's zero reason for me to believe every team wouldn't be at least somewhat interested in Letang for pennies on the dollar cap-wise. Spending $3.65 million on a legit #1 d-man for a push at the playoffs (non-contender) or legit push for the Cup is a no-brainer.

I'm not talking about if he'd re-sign where he's traded. I'm saying if we shopped him at 50% retained at the deadline (assuming contract talks were at an impasse and we were out of the playoffs), that every team close to a playoff position would be seriously interested. We'd have a bunch of offers to sift through and I have an extremely hard time believing there wouldn't be an offer on the table that amounted to a big return.

Seth Jones is almost ten years younger than Letang. Who spent a shit ton on PK Subban?

 

[Gurglesons]

Benefit? Forsberg is outproducing all of our wingers save Guentzel without the benefit of playing with elite centers.

He is a creator. None of our other wingers fit that bill, Guentzel included. If you want to act like Rust or Zucker do that too, I'm not sure what to say.

I think Forsberg historically is a better winger than everyone but Jake on our team.

My issue is paying significant assets for a forward who is a UFA, 28, and wants big money.

I also get what you and @Sidney the Kidney are saying about having more individual talent in our top six, but I also question how that has worked in the past.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I agree with you entirely but Letang's probably pricing himself out of Pittsburgh.

That's really hard to say with how much flexibility we have this summer. 13 UFAs and 5 RFAs.
Letang has 2 kids and he'll be 35. He's very attached to the city. Can't see him wanting to uproot them at this stage.

I think he'll take less to stay.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think Forsberg historically is a better winger than everyone but Jake on our team.

My issue is paying significant assets for a forward who is a UFA, 28, and wants big money.

I also get what you and @Sidney the Kidney are saying about having more individual talent in our top six, but I also question how that has worked in the past.

What else should we be using significant assets on?

We paid the same futures for lesser wingers with term in Zucker and Kapanen, and neither's been "the answer" on the wing. Zucker's added here to give us cap flexibility moving forward rather than continue using a bad fit in our top 6.

To me, a UFA Forsberg suits our purposes well. The post-Crosby era is secondary, so his age isn't really an issue...it's what he can contribute during this core's window that counts most. And a UFA is great for "try before you buy". I sure wish we'd been able to do that with Zucker. Term isn't always a positive.

As for working in the past, the last time we had 2 wingers as good as Guentzel and Forsberg, we were regular contenders. Forsberg also doesn't have the same drawbacks Kessel does.

I don't see how we can look at this top 6 group and think that the amount of individual talent is good enough.

 

[Gurglesons]

What else should we be using significant assets on?

We paid the same futures for lesser wingers with term in Zucker and Kapanen, and neither's been "the answer" on the wing. Zucker's added here to give us cap flexibility moving forward rather than continue using a bad fit in our top 6.

To me, a UFA Forsberg suits our purposes well. The post-Crosby era is secondary, so his age isn't really an issue...it's what he can contribute during this core's window that counts most. And a UFA is great for "try before you buy". I sure wish we'd been able to do that with Zucker. Term isn't always a positive.

As for working in the past, the last time we had 2 wingers as good as Guentzel and Forsberg, we were regular contenders. Forsberg also doesn't have the same drawbacks Kessel does.

I don't see how we can look at this top 6 group and think that the amount of individual talent is good enough.

We shouldn’t be using significant assets. The window is over.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We shouldn’t be using significant assets. The window is over.

Well we disagree there too.

The core is good enough to win again. Where we're at the last couple years is a consequence of making multiple bad roster moves that don't give our core the support it needs.

They don't have a 3rd scoring option like they had in '16 and '17, they don't have a net presence, and they don't have any toughness.

These can be addressed, but you have to be willing to pay.

 

[Pens x]

Well we disagree there too.

The core is good enough to win again. Where we're at the last couple years is a consequence of making multiple bad roster moves that don't give our core the support it needs.

They don't have a 3rd scoring option like they had in '16 and '17, they don't have a net presence, and they don't have any toughness.

These can be addressed, but you have to be willing to pay.

You better hope Hextall resigns if you want big moves made. If the guy was unable to find a back up goalie, how will he find a Kessel type player like JR did?

 

[Jacob]

I think my price on Letang is a firm 7.5 million. If he’s not gonna take a discount to stay here there’s no point, and no reason to get into a bidding war.