Confirmed with Link: Penguins Re-Sign Forward Brandon Sutter to a Two-Year Contract (3.3 AAV)

[mpp9]

And he was in on 7 goals while only allowing 4. Not real sure what you expect from the guy. That's exactly what you want from a 3C. Regardless of what he looks like while doing it.

And as productive as Juice was, and as Neal can be, they weren't doing much to help him in terms of possession.

 

[IcedCapp]

He had the highest quality of competition of our forwards in the playoffs, he started only 40% of his shifts in the O zone and ended 51% of his shifts in the O zone. That's the same % of shifts ending in the O zone as Geno, despite Geno starting 70% of his there.

if we're going to go that route, he also had one of the worst corsis on the team.

edit:

And the best large-sample On-ice SH% (Jayson Megna had higher, but only played 2 games).

edit:

and Brian Gibbons and Crag Adams lead the team in Off-Zone Finish %

 

[AjaxTelamon]

if we're going to go that route, he also had one of the worst corsis on the team.

edit:

And the best large-sample On-ice SH% (Jayson Megna had higher, but only played 2 games).

edit:

and Brian Gibbons and Crag Adams lead the team in Off-Zone Finish %

His poor PO Corsi is a bit puzzling, considering Neal fired the puck like crazy. His GF% was an awesome 63.6% though. Largely due to unsustainable shooting percentages from him and JJ. But he did play differently, or rather, his linemates allowed him to play a different game. With additional zone time he got to the dirty areas and slot more. Staal scored a vast majority of his goals from the slot off cycling, Sutter should be able to do that as well if paired up with a stronger board player who can pass the puck, like Bennett or Downie.

That said, Sutter needs to put on some muscle and improve his board play and his faceoffs to be an elite 3C. Right now I'd consider him average or a bit above.

 

[ColePens]

In the future - I will redirect them, Ogre. But when it starts going off topic, we need to just get back on topic. Simple as that.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I think Sutter is going to be very good as our 3C. I don't think he just randomly got better at the end of the season. As soon as he got new wings he improved dramatically.

I hope you are right, but from what I saw out of Sutter I'm not a fan of his play. The guy would go on a tear for a week or so. But everything in between the guy was non existent. He has a nice frame but plays soft and looks passionless. It is a major drop in talent and style to Jordan Staal and I'm not talking about the numbers.

 

[Quatro Quatro]

I don't think you can put so much weight into some of these advanced statistics on their own. Sutter most likely will never be some dominant possession player unless something miraculous happens, but I also don't think he's as bad as the stats indicate. There are just too many factors that go into it.

I mean, the Penguins were a pretty mediocre possession team and I think most of that had to do with the way Bylsma had them playing. Add to that who Sutter played with, and I think you'll at least see part of the reason he has pretty ugly stats.

 

[ColePens]

And he was in on 7 goals while only allowing 4. Not real sure what you expect from the guy. That's exactly what you want from a 3C. Regardless of what he looks like while doing it.

And as productive as Juice was, and as Neal can be, they weren't doing much to help him in terms of possession.

I hate stats. Period. I hate them. They are good to glance at, but terrible to stem big conversations on.

Sutter was very good in the late part of the season and playoffs. I want THAT Sutter on a consistent basis. We NEED that Sutter on a consistent basis. I don't even care if he's producing at a high level. I just want him to make a difference and get energy back our way. His lethargic long droughts are bad for the team. It's bad enough we rely solely on Sid/Geno. With us not having solid top 6 wingers for those two, it's imperative that our 3rd line is contributing in some way. Draw penalties, make sure you give up nothing, and get energy back for our team.

Sutter is a great 3rd line center on a team w/ a great top 6. We are not that team. We have fill-ins and then rely on 3rd/4th line depth. That is what won us a Cup in 09. We've tried to do the same w/o a strong 3rd/4th line and it's not working. Trading Staal was the moment we should have transitioned to get big time wingers via trade and using our youth on the d-side to account for big minutes at low cost.

We didn't do that. Not at all. Now Sutter's expectations are to fill in Jordan Staal's shoes, and it's unfair to him. We also gave him **** linemates.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We seem pretty eager to tout possession numbers when they support the moves we've made this year but dismissive when they don't.

 

[Quatro Quatro]

We seem pretty eager to tout possession numbers when they support the moves we've made this year but dismissive when they don't.

I think the problem is that a lot of people just look at a Corsi number and try to use that as the way to determine a player's worth.

 

[mpp9]

Brandon Sutter outscored and outshot the opposition while seeing the hardest zone starts of any forward. I don't see what's so wrong with using that to support your argument?

Like Cole said, people want Sutter to be a player he's not. He's not a possession monster. But he can take on difficult defensive assignments/minutes and come out on top. It may not be pretty. But I've been in favor of a bottom six that doesn't hurt us and can score a few big goals. While we make Sid and Geno's lines more difficult to defend. Whether it be high end skill or a mix of players with moderate skill but own the corners and front of the net.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I hope you are right, but from what I saw out of Sutter I'm not a fan of his play. The guy would go on a tear for a week or so. But everything in between the guy was non existent. He has a nice frame but plays soft and looks passionless. It is a major drop in talent and style to Jordan Staal and I'm not talking about the numbers.

If you expect him to be as good as staal of course you are disappointed.

 

[Gurglesons]

Brandon Sutter outscored and outshot the opposition while seeing the hardest zone starts of any forward. I don't see what's so wrong with using that to support your argument?

Like Cole said, people want Sutter to be a player he's not. He's not a possession monster. But he can take on difficult defensive assignments/minutes and come out on top. It may not be pretty. But I've been in favor of a bottom six that doesn't hurt us and can score a few big goals. While we make Sid and Geno's lines more difficult to defend. Whether it be high end skill or a mix of players with moderate skill but own the corners and front of the net.

Also, he has two years to prove himself. If he doesn't we let him walk or trade him. Plus, I think he will look good being flanked by players like Spaling and Bennett / Dupuis over Adams / Glass.

 

[trooper66]

I love this signing, this guy is a hockey player, now we have 4 really good centers

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I love this signing, this guy is a hockey player, now we have 4 really good centers

Yeah no kidding. Snagging Goc at 1.2m will really pay dividends for us. And Sid won't have to take every important D zone faceoff.

Watching a legit NHL bottom 6 next year is going to make Pens hockey way less frustrating.

Can Payerl play RW? I sort of assume Megna would win a battle for that 4th line RW spot, but Payerl is a bit cheaper, and has size. I'd like to see him make a run at it.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

He had the highest quality of competition of our forwards in the playoffs, he started only 40% of his shifts in the O zone and ended 51% of his shifts in the O zone. That's the same % of shifts ending in the O zone as Geno, despite Geno starting 70% of his there.

From what I remember, there is almost zero correlation between zone start % and zone finish %. The advantage gained from an offensive zone start is gone after roughly 10 seconds.

 

[billybudd]

Sutter's low fenwick/corsi/etc has a pretty obvious explanation (career, I'm talking...his possession numbers were trash with Cooke and Kennedy as well as just about everyone on Carolina)--weak players get knocked off the puck easily, don't win 50/50 pucks and aren't very good on the boards.

This is why Eric Staal can come to camp with a potbelly, sleepwalk through a season and still have decent possession numbers. If you're big and strong, reasonably coordinated and can cover good ground, your possession numbers will be positive, even if you're out of shape and don't give a crap. A smaller guy like Johnny Oduya just isn't going to be capable of winning any ice against him.

If, at some point since Sutter turned 18, he had spent a summer doing serious work in the gym and pursuing serious nutrition, I feel like about 70% of the flaws in his game would disappear and his possession numbers would go in the opposite direction. He's a 7 year pro now, so I'm not holding my breath for this to happen.

It's pretty confounding to me that he's never done this, by the way. His biggest weakness is obvious and the path to correcting it is well-trodden by just about all 1st round picks that make the show and aren't him.

I don't know if he ignores his strength trainers and coaches or if he has Crohn's disease or what, but I refuse to believe he's been told to put on 20 pounds of muscle over the summer any less than six times since being drafted.

 

[Ogrezilla]

he said he has tried to put on weight and can't. I guess he could be a liar though. He's bigger than Kunitz and Hornqvist as is.

 

[#1GuinFan]

I don't know if he ignores his strength trainers and coaches or if he has Crohn's disease or what, but I refuse to believe he's been told to put on 20 pounds of muscle over the summer any less than six times since being drafted.

You obviously don't train, 20lbs gained in muscle over the course of a summer (June-Aug) is completely unrealistic. Maybe 10lbs tops, but most certainly not 20, that would have dramatic affects negatively on a players game.

 

[billybudd]

You obviously don't train, 20lbs gained in muscle over the course of a summer (June-Aug) is completely unrealistic. Maybe 10lbs tops, but most certainly not 20, that would have dramatic affects negatively on a players game.

Do you even lift bro?

Regardless of whether "it's possible" it's what NHL teams tell players that are underweight. I'd look for the article from Justin Bourne about this, if I didn't think your comment was pointlessly antagonistic.

he said he has tried to put on weight and can't. I guess he could be a liar though. He's bigger than Kunitz and Hornqvist as is.

Seems like the sort of thing nutritionists that work with pro athletes would know how to work around, but I guess it's possible his metabolism is just too fast for it to matter (even though I'm skeptical of this possiblity). Sutter's certainly taller than Kunitz and Hornqvist, but I don't think he's anywhere near as strong as either, particularly the latter.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Seems like the sort of thing nutritionists that work with pro athletes would know how to work around, but I guess it's possible his metabolism is just too fast for it to matter (even though I'm skeptical of this possiblity). Sutter's certainly taller than Kunitz and Hornqvist, but I don't think he's anywhere near as strong as either, particularly the latter.

No, he's not. But he does weigh more than either.

 

[Til the End of Time]

unless sutter has some sort of rare inborn error of metabolism, then he can absolutely put on weight, he just isnt trying hard enough.

which, come to think of it, seems to be characteristic of his on ice play as well.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No, he's not. But he does weigh more than either.

Every guidebook, site, etc. I've seen has Sutter listed at 183 lbs. Kunitz is usually in the 193 to 198 lbs. range. Not sure what Hornqvist is listed at.

Sutter's similar to Wayne Simmonds in terms of size. Both around 6'2 or 6'3, but both only a fraction above 180 lbs.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

Every guidebook, site, etc. I've seen has Sutter listed at 183 lbs. Kunitz is usually in the 193 to 198 lbs. range. Not sure what Hornqvist is listed at.

Sutter's similar to Wayne Simmonds in terms of size. Both around 6'2 or 6'3, but both only a fraction above 180 lbs.

Difference between Simmonds and Sutter is that Wayne is significantly stronger than Brandon.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Difference between Simmonds and Sutter is that Wayne is significantly stronger than Brandon.

That ... literally had zero to do with what I was responding to, but okay.

 

[billybudd]

Every guidebook, site, etc. I've seen has Sutter listed at 183 lbs. Kunitz is usually in the 193 to 198 lbs. range. Not sure what Hornqvist is listed at.

Sutter's similar to Wayne Simmonds in terms of size. Both around 6'2 or 6'3, but both only a fraction above 180 lbs.

I honestly can't believe Wayne Simmonds doesn't break his ankles from a slash or shot every week in the season. There's no meat at all on his legs.