Proposal: Penguins need to blow it up

[Empoleon8771]

Larsson would be a possibility IF we were able to make a trade for Spurgeon ie. 8th OA for Spurgeon. So has Schultz worn out his welcome? I haven't watched many Pens games these last few years but last I remembered he was piling up points for you guys in a big way.

Schultz had 1 great season when Letang was out, but he regressed significantly after he got his extension. He's a good OFD, but not a good puck moving D. His possession stats this year, which were extremely bad, accurately represent how he looked this year. Last year wasn't any better.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Looking at Hornqvist's season stats, age and remaining salary I'm not sure that I'd offer more than a 2nd and a short term cap dump for him.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Schultz had 1 great season when Letang was out, but he regressed significantly after he got his extension. He's a good OFD, but not a good puck moving D. His possession stats this year, which were extremely bad, accurately represent how he looked this year. Last year wasn't any better.

Oh well, at least you guys got a couple of cups out of him. His stats are starting to look more like they did when he was with us without the hefty -'s though.

 

[Ctrain2k]

If you want to go big with something around Klefbom, Nurse or Larsson, I certainly wouldn't object to that

The Penguins have a good bottom pair in Pettersson-Gudbranson, they have a good 2nd pair LD in Dumoulin and a good top pair RD in Letang. They need a 2nd pair RD to replace Schultz and a 1st pair LD to push Dumoulin to the 2nd pair. I certainly would be intrigued with any of Klefbom, Nurse or Larsson. I'd throw out something around Hornqvist for Larsson as an interesting suggestion. Klefbom and Nurse are probably aiming too high but the Penguins would need one of those 2 to justify moving Kessel. Larsson and Hornqvist are the next guys down on the list.

That ask is kinda ridiculous for Hornqvist, he’s 32 and I think he’s already regressed to a middle 6ixer.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Looking at Hornqvist's season stats, age and remaining salary I'm not sure that I'd offer more than a 2nd and a short term cap dump for him.

I wouldn't blame you, to be honest. He was one of a few players who fell off dramatically in the second half of this season. I think you'd have to believe that the help he'd provide on the powerplay outweighs the risk of him falling off to pay good value for him. But if you don't have a good PPQB, getting someone like Hornqvist wouldn't be worth it. Hornqvist is the piece that takes your powerplay from good to great, he's not the piece that makes your powerplay good.

That ask is kinda ridiculous for Hornqvist, he’s 32 and I think he’s already regressed to a middle 6ixer.

I mean, Larsson is a middle pair D and Hornqvist is a 2nd liner. I don't really view that as an unreasonable base. I think you're overrating Larsson a tad. It also hurts Hornqvist that he never plays with Crosby, his stat should be put in the context of him not spending that much time in the Penguins top-6 this year. He was mostly used on the 3rd line this year with either Brassard or Bjugstad, because Corsby doesn't like playing with him (or at least that's the rumor) and Malkin played a ton with Kessel.

 

[hooverdam]

You do not want this front office facilitating a rebuild. Just look at the long-lasting damage they've done to the defense corps over the past two years; do you really want the same thing to happen with the forwards?

They need to get rid of their GM, their heir apparent GM, and probably the guy who keeps those guys in jobs (Morehouse). The new FO should look at the coaching staff and think long and hard about Sullivan and assistants.

You don't even have to look at the NHL squad to see how grossly incompetent their management has been. Just look at how WBS has gone down in the toilet since Botterill's departure. That org used to churn out well-developed middle six forwards like clockwork, and still iced a competitive AHL team. They produced Murray, who wasn't the goalie he is until he went through WBS. They're in for some really dark years if they can't get their development pipeline back on track, never mind what Crosby and Malkin do.

 

[Ctrain2k]

I mean, Larsson is a middle pair D and Hornqvist is a 2nd liner. I don't really view that as an unreasonable base. I think you're overrating Larsson a tad. It also hurts Hornqvist that he never plays with Crosby, his stat should be put in the context of him not spending that much time in the Penguins top-6 this year. He was mostly used on the 3rd line this year with either Brassard or Bjugstad, because Corsby doesn't like playing with him (or at least that's the rumor) and Malkin played a ton with Kessel.

Larsson’s a 26 year old top 4 d on a great contract, Hornqvist a 32 year old middle 6 winger. I don’t see how anyone could view that as close.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Larsson’s a 26 year old top 4 d on a great contract, Hornqvist a 32 year old middle 6 winger. I don’t see how anyone could view that as close.

"Hornqvist is an incredibly unique 2nd liner that has been a big part of 2 cup winners. Larsson is a 2nd pair RD with limited offense and bad possession stats"

See, I can do the same the other way. You're overrating Larsson, a 2nd line winger for a middle pair D is a completely fair swap. Bringing up ages is a fair thing, but that doesn't take it from fair to "not even close".

 

[Ctrain2k]

"Hornqvist is an incredibly unique 2nd liner that has been a big part of 2 cup winners. Larsson is a 2nd pair RD with limited offense and bad possession stats"

See, I can do the same the other way. You're overrating Larsson, a 2nd line winger for a middle pair D is a completely fair swap. Bringing up ages is a fair thing, but that doesn't take it from fair to "not even close".

Larsson had a really bad year which is why I’m referring to him as a top 4 D instead of a top pair d which he was the previous 2 years.

I’m not sure why Hornqvist being “unique” and apart of 2 cups has any relevance, but I think he’s regressing pretty hard right now.

I do think Larsson’s offensive game is a bit underrated too, he’s a really underrated passer and can make plays happen when he wants. Also most of the time the forwards he gets the puck too just can’t make anything happen. He really just doesn’t do it often and prioritizes defence first.

Maybe as players they’re not too far apart right now, but when you factor in age,position,contracts and the fact that Hornqvist has been regressing pretty hard. It’s clearly Larsson

 

[third man in]

The OP isn't a Penguins fan. They're obviously not going to blow up the team. The absolute furthest I can see them going is trading Maatta plus 2 of Kessel, Hornqvist, Rust and Schultz. They're definitely not moving any of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Dumoulin, Guentzel or Murray.

Who the hell wants to give anything of value up for Maatta? He sucks

 

[Empoleon8771]

Who the hell wants to give anything of value up for Maatta? He sucks

Ah yes, the stupid HF thing that HF is trying to convince itself is reality. Good joke.

Maatta's a #4D making #4D money. If you think he sucks or that a GM wouldn't want him, I don't really know what to tell you because you're living in fantasy land.

Larsson had a really bad year which is why I’m referring to him as a top 4 D instead of a top pair d which he was the previous 2 years.

I’m not sure why Hornqvist being “unique” and apart of 2 cups has any relevance, but I think he’s regressing pretty hard right now.

I do think Larsson’s offensive game is a bit underrated too, he’s a really underrated passer and can make plays happen when he wants. Also most of the time the forwards he gets the puck too just can’t make anything happen. He really just doesn’t do it often and prioritizes defence first.

Maybe as players they’re not too far apart right now, but when you factor in age,position,contracts and the fact that Hornqvist has been regressing pretty hard. It’s clearly Larsson

I wouldn't call Larsson a top pair D under any circumstances and me calling him a middle pair D is ignoring he had a down year this year. Why is Hornqvist "regressing pretty hard" when Larsson's bad season means nothing? Hornqvist over his entire career has been around a 25-30 goal, 50-55 point player per 82 games. He was that last year and was on pace for about 45 points this year in mostly a 3rd line role.

I think you're just overrating Larsson and underrating Hornqvist. Hornqvist is still a 2nd line forward and has been consistent with his production. His age and his dry spell to end this season are the only knocks against him, but that doesn't mean he's "regressing pretty hard".

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Who the hell wants to give anything of value up for Maatta? He sucks

According to Emp, Maata is a top-3 / top-4 dman who was a healthy scratch in the playoffs because of the Pens insane depth on LHD with Jack Johnson, Dumoulin and Petterson. Allstar group of LhD...

 

[Hockeyholic]

The OP isn't a Penguins fan. They're obviously not going to blow up the team. The absolute furthest I can see them going is trading Maatta plus 2 of Kessel, Hornqvist, Rust and Schultz. They're definitely not moving any of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Dumoulin, Guentzel or Murray.

Curious why he is always on the untouchables list? They played better without him in the lineup this season. They looked great without him in 2017. He can't run a PP to save his life. He's atrocious defensively.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Curious why he is always on the untouchables list? They played better without him in the lineup this season. They looked great without him in 2017. He can't run a PP to save his life. He's atrocious defensively.

The team can't survive trading Letang even with his warts. That's what it comes down to for me. Even with the negatives in his game, they just can't afford to move him. They'd need to be bringing back someone like Subban to even entertain moving Letang, and at that point, they should just keep Letang with his warts.

 

[Hockeyholic]

The team can't survive trading Letang even with his warts. That's what it comes down to for me. Even with the negatives in his game, they just can't afford to move him.

Maybe they can't afford to move him because they've never looked at bringing in anyone else. Which is bizarre. There are D men out there who aren't injury prone, and who don't cost as much.

 

[cwede]

i've always kinda expected Malkin to end up in NY,
maybe bundles in each direction,
NYR sending a package beginning with high-end prospect, a good pick and Marc Staal, plus more (Geno's salary is too high NOT to have some Hit come back), Staal might approve a trade to rejoin Sully and play with Sid to compete for Cups;
Bjorkqvist might be a nice mate for Kakko to adapt to NA hockey

re some suggestions above, IMHO. I doubt Pens move either of the Fs(Cs) from Panthers trade, those guys refresh the C position ; and moving Malkin opens Cap and fills other gaps

 

[TeddyBare]

Ah yes, the stupid HF thing that HF is trying to convince itself is reality. Good joke.

Maatta's a #4D making #4D money. If you think he sucks or that a GM wouldn't want him, I don't really know what to tell you because you're living in fantasy land.

Saying Maata sucks is not a fantasy

it's reality.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Maybe they can't afford to move him because they've never looked at bringing in anyone else. Which is bizarre. There are D men out there who aren't injury prone, and who don't cost as much.

That's entirely possible that they could find someone who has fewer red flags than Letang, but I don't think you'd find anyone clearly better than Letang. Letang is in a boat closer to Malkin's boat than Kessel's boat. The red flags and warts in his game are worth keeping him because he's really damn good when he's on.

Now if the Penguins can easily pull off someone like Ellis or Subban, that may change things. But that's a pretty big if.

Saying Maata sucks is not a fantasy

it's reality.

Should I bother asking for some proof or are you just going to screech about how bad he is?

The arguments for Maatta not sucking:

1. Very good 5v5 shot suppression numbers (source)
2. Excellent PK shot suppression numbers (source)
3. 2nd best 5v5 xGA/60 with the 2nd highest defensive zone starts among Penguins defensemen with over 400 minutes (source)
4. Top-60 in terms of ES points in the NHL in 2017-2018 (source)

The arguments for Maatta sucking:

1. LOL HE CAN'T SKATE
2. Because I say so

i've always kinda expected Malkin to end up in NY,
maybe bundles in each direction,
NYR sending a package beginning with high-end prospect, a good pick and Marc Staal, plus more (Geno's salary is too high NOT to have some Hit come back), Staal might approve a trade to rejoin Sully and play with Sid to compete for Cups;
Bjorkqvist might be a nice mate for Kakko to adapt to NA hockey

re some suggestions above, IMHO. I doubt Pens move either of the Fs(Cs) from Panthers trade, those guys refresh the C position ; and moving Malkin opens Cap and fills other gaps

Talking about trading for Malkin while including the name "Marc Staal" in the discussion is certainly an interesting strategy.

 

[Ctrain2k]

I wouldn't call Larsson a top pair D under any circumstances and me calling him a middle pair D is ignoring he had a down year this year. Why is Hornqvist "regressing pretty hard" when Larsson's bad season means nothing? Hornqvist over his entire career has been around a 25-30 goal, 50-55 point player per 82 games. He was that last year and was on pace for about 45 points this year in mostly a 3rd line role.

I think you're just overrating Larsson and underrating Hornqvist. Hornqvist is still a 2nd line forward and has been consistent with his production. His age and his dry spell to end this season are the only knocks against him, but that doesn't mean he's "regressing pretty hard".

The reason Larsson’s season is considered an outlier is because of his age, previous play and team play around him. The reason Hornqvist season is considered regression is because when players reach a certain age and start playing bad it is viewed as age related.

Larsson’s been considered a top 4 D for about 4-5 years now and played like a top pair d the previous 2 years. Hornqvist has been a good 2nd line winger for a while now and though he’s serviceable in a 2nd line role and could even excel under the right circumstances. Ideally he’s a 3rd line winger. I think you’re underrating Larsson and overrating Hornqvist.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The reason Larsson’s season is considered an outlier is because of his age, previous play and team play around him. The reason Hornqvist season is considered regression is because when players reach a certain age and start playing bad it is viewed as age related.

Larsson’s been considered a top 4 D for about 4-5 years now and played like a top pair d the previous 2 years. Hornqvist has been a good 2nd line winger for a while now and though he’s serviceable in a 2nd line role and could even excel under the right circumstances. Ideally he’s a 3rd line winger. I think you’re underrating Larsson and overrating Hornqvist.

Eh, agree to disagree I guess. I just don't see how a bad 20-30 game run means Hornqvist is "regressing hard". I do think the age gap is a legit reason why the Oilers would say no to the swap, I just don't think Hornqvist is at the point you're saying.

 

[cwede]

.. Talking about trading for Malkin while including the name "Marc Staal" in the discussion is certainly an interesting strategy.

cherry-picking a part of the comment can be fun, but Staal wasn't the featured piece,
i gave reasons why (Cap balance, Sully)

and after watching these 3 Pens games,
despite the overstated internet disrespect for Staal,
it's hard not to be convinced he could only have helped ...

gotta defer some of Geno's Cap Hit somehow,
does Pens fan base prefer Brendan Smith?

 

[Kristopher Letang]

In my completely unbiased opinion the Penguins need leadership, locker room presence, and physicality.

The core won 2 Cups in 4 and 3 in 10, but they need more leadership. Who are you thinking about for leadership and experience? Lmaoo this website is gold.

Edit: Looking back it was sarcasm, well played.

 

[Empoleon8771]

cherry-picking a part of the comment can be fun, but Staal wasn't the featured piece,
i gave reasons why (Cap balance, Sully)

and after watching these 3 Pens games,
despite the overstated internet disrespect for Staal,
it's hard not to be convinced he could only have helped ...

gotta defer some of Geno's Cap Hit somehow,
does Pens fan base prefer Brendan Smith?

I'd prefer to be talking to a team that isn't trying to unload contracts like Staal or Smith if we're talking a ****ing Malkin trade. You want to clear cap to be able to afford Malkin? Start by offering Zibanejad.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

You do not want this front office facilitating a rebuild. Just look at the long-lasting damage they've done to the defense corps over the past two years; do you really want the same thing to happen with the forwards?

They need to get rid of their GM, their heir apparent GM, and probably the guy who keeps those guys in jobs (Morehouse). The new FO should look at the coaching staff and think long and hard about Sullivan and assistants.

You don't even have to look at the NHL squad to see how grossly incompetent their management has been. Just look at how WBS has gone down in the toilet since Botterill's departure. That org used to churn out well-developed middle six forwards like clockwork, and still iced a competitive AHL team. They produced Murray, who wasn't the goalie he is until he went through WBS. They're in for some really dark years if they can't get their development pipeline back on track, never mind what Crosby and Malkin do.

Yup JR is the issue. I don’t think Sullivan is a bad coach, JR stopped getting him the players that work for his system. We had an identity for the first time in years and it was working. I honestly can’t explain why he tried to change it, Pens started to suck when JR began to bring players that clearly were not build for it. The transition should have been easy, he f***ed up and has to pay for it.

 

[66-30-33]

Blow it up? naw.
Retool? yaw.

The D is eating up WAAAAY too much money and are a bottom 5 worst D in the league. Retool a few years, see what we have in WBS as well.

Yo JR, make this team great again.