Post-Game Talk: Penguins def. Canucks - 4-1

[4Twenty]

Naslund is probably right about how ownership didn't allow for certain buyouts that would have maybe enabled keeping one of those players, but that doesn't take away that the team would have still been shit last year with or without Toffoli.

Drance has referenced it.

They still had incredibly poor salary cap allocation and the team would have still been morally in the dumps without Markstrom and Tanev.

So, blaming ownership for everything is incredibly stupid. Benning could have done way better with what he had available - even if he wasn't given permission to perform the buyout/trades he wanted to or whatever.

I think he’s wrong. They didn’t want to buy out Sutter they still brought him back the following year.

Buying out anyone else didn’t create space.

They brought back JV too.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Again, I'm not defending the signings you mentioned, but are you saying you predicted Covid? Because that created the flat cap and it was that which caused the owners to switch directions. Incredible powers of prediction you had. You're wasted here, I'm sure the FBI would love to put your powers to better use.

You don't need to be able to predict Covid to know the cap wouldn't go up by over $8M, which is how much it would've cost to keep both Tanev and Toffoli.
You don't need to be able to predict the future to know that Myers at $6m is a bad idea when you have some core players coming up for new contracts.
You don't need "incredible powers of prediction" to know that when you already have a significant portion of the cap tied up to junk, that adding another $4.5m on a backup goalie will cost you in the other area in a cap league.
You don't need anything but common sense to know that asking an owner to spend to the cap, THEN ask him to spend millions to buy out those players, is always going to be a tough ask, flat cap or not.

You are unable to see it because, like Benning, you are operating day-to-day with no ability for plan ahead. Its ok for you, but for a manager of a $800m organization, this is completely and utterly inexcusable. Stop making excuse for incompetence. Don't you think you deserve better?

 

[MarkMM]

I think he’s wrong. They didn’t want to buy out Sutter they still brought him back the following year.

Buying out anyone else didn’t create space.

They brought back JV too.

And the problem with buyouts is they push dead cap into future years, which were already going to be problematic for anyone who looked ahead and saw the re-signings of our core in the offing.

The whole "cap space doesn't matter for rebuilding teams" was so painfully stupid to say here, but it seems it was actually something management believed in and got trapped by it to the point that buyouts weren't going to be enough. They were (and we are) just hooped.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

It’s actually pretty hilarious that you have someone excusing Benning for not re-signing certain players because he wasn’t allowed to buy out some really bad contracts he signed (which contracts, for clarity, are just a drop in the bucket of bad contracts he’s signed as a GM). Like, couldn’t Blueberries refusal to buyout these contracts be less financial and more him being fed up with a GM who isn’t able to learn and continually signs terrible contracts? I actually have zero empathy for Elmer here and don’t blame Blueberries for refusing to buyout these contracts.

Yea this is pretty shocking to me. Like in what other profession would this be acceptable for the manager to completely mis-handle his budget/staff, then turn around and blame the owner for not spending millions of dollars to just make people "go away"? I'm sure billionaires got rich by paying off people to stop working for them, that sounds like a wise business decision.

 

[4Twenty]

And the problem with buyouts is they push dead cap into future years, which were already going to be problematic for anyone who looked ahead and saw the re-signings of our core in the offing.

The whole "cap space doesn't matter for rebuilding teams" was so painfully stupid to say here, but it seems it was actually something management believed in and got trapped by it to the point that buyouts weren't going to be enough. They were (and we are) just hooped.

Yup. It’s the managers job to not require buyouts that continually just pass the caphit down the line. The idea it was because Aqua is cheap and not that it was probably unnecessary to support the elite bubble core with buyouts when they should waltz through the league anyways (in empty arenas) is silly.

Look at how the owner supported buyouts for the season with fans back now? Buyouts and massive salary commitments.

 

[Cheeks Clapinski]

Maybe I am naïve, but I think it is pretty irresponsible to run your budget on the assumption that the cap will go up. I know historically it had to that point, but doesn't proper risk management (especially for an organization of this size) dictate that you should plan contingencies around flat cap scenarios?

Yes, the organization can hardly be held accountable for not predicting COVID, but shouldn't they be held accountable for putting a plan in place that required a significant rise in cap to execute while also including no contingency plans in the case where the cap did not rise as significantly as they were expecting?

 

[Hit the post]

Maybe I am naïve, but I think it is pretty irresponsible to run your budget on the assumption that the cap will go up. I know historically it had to that point, but doesn't proper risk management (especially for an organization of this size) dictate that you should plan contingencies around flat cap scenarios?

Yes, the organization can hardly be held accountable for not predicting COVID, but shouldn't they be held accountable for putting a plan in place that required a significant rise in cap to execute while also including no contingency plans in the case where the cap did not rise as significantly as they were expecting?

Lol they couldn’t even plan with respect to the expanded taxi squad that the league permitted.

 

[Paper Bag]

Maybe ownership sucks. Maybe management sucks. Maybe the coaching sucks. Maybe the players suck. Maybe the media sucks. Maybe the fans suck. Maybe the players don't like ownership or management or the coaching staff or the media or the fans or each other.

All we know for sure is that this team sucks and has for a while. It is also obvious that they now suck more than ever.

What are they going to do about it? Probably nothing but whatever they do I bet it sucks.

 

[MarkMM]

Maybe ownership sucks. Maybe management sucks. Maybe the coaching sucks. Maybe the players suck. Maybe the media sucks. Maybe the fans suck. Maybe the players don't like ownership or management or the coaching staff or the media or the fans or each other.

All we know for sure is that this team sucks and has for a while. It is also obvious that they now suck more than ever.

What are they going to do about it? Probably nothing but whatever they do I bet it sucks.

There's been no maybe about managing sucking for a long time. The bad coaching and bad players stem from that.

And bad management this long stems from bad ownership.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Hey I haven't got the chance to watch any canuck games really this year.

A couple early on I think and this one verses Pittsburgh.

Nucks are my 2nd favorite team. What's going on? The roster atleast on paper looks really good.

What I saw last night was not promising and I don't know what we do besides firing the coach.

 

[tantalum]

The roster is good on paper if you ignore 30% of the names on it and ignore that others are being asked to play roles they aren’t suited for. It’s not a good team on paper which is why every single model had them easily missing the playoffs.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Hey I haven't got the chance to watch any canuck games really this year.

A couple early on I think and this one verses Pittsburgh.

Nucks are my 2nd favorite team. What's going on? The roster atleast on paper looks really good.

What I saw last night was not promising and I don't know what we do besides firing the coach.

the team gambled big this summer to try and instantly remake the team. the changes failed to fix the problems and now the team is in a death spiral. the team management has run out of runway and are presently staring grimly at the landing lights and chainlink fencing that they are rushing towards praying the crash is not too violent and they don't end up in the ocean. meanwhile the players are assuming their crash ready positions and the coach is strapping himself into the jumpseat.

 

[krutovsdonut]

the aqua family do hate paying people to do nothing.

 

[VanillaCoke]

But context and nuance

 

[supercanuck]

Maybe ownership sucks. Maybe management sucks. Maybe the coaching sucks. Maybe the players suck. Maybe the media sucks. Maybe the fans suck. Maybe the players don't like ownership or management or the coaching staff or the media or the fans or each other.

All we know for sure is that this team sucks and has for a while. It is also obvious that they now suck more than ever.

What are they going to do about it? Probably nothing but whatever they do I bet it sucks.

Yeah, @Paper Bag , the Canucks sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked. I've seen teams suck before but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.

 

[geebaan]

I never wanted Virtanen, so don't ask me to defend that one.

Holtby was a bad bet ultimately, but bringing in a veteran goaltender was a good move as Demko's track record of success was brief and let's not forget that he had faltered down the stretch when Marky was hurt prior to Covid.

Schmidt just didn't work out here.

massive woosh here

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Can you show the math on how those Tanev and Toffoli deals (they didn’t even call him) would’ve fit under the cap and which players were being bought out?

If you say Sutter I laugh because they bright him back this season. Benning is a Sutter truther.

The excuses are pathetic now.

I don't know every detail of the transactions. I think it involved buying out Sutter and Virtanen, but I'm just telling you what I have read from Drance matches up with what my contact was telling me at the time.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

We can do what we want..... and for knowing someone, that give you what? Fly on the wall status, he said she said. I think your take on the issue of Benning's tenure is sad. It's 8 years and the team has spun circles...

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT OWNERS! To bad, Benning sucks. Don't care what hand he was dealt. So the junk contracts he signed, led to where ownership said no we are not cleaning up your mistakes, work it out. And he couldn't, so blame ownership? Wow.

There seems to be this misconception that I'm arguing that Benning is a super genius who has been hamstrung by a bad owner.

No. He made some really good draft picks and some of his trades have been great.

Some of his trades have been terrible and his UFA signings are so bad it's comical.

My point is, the owner IS the problem. Which is actually more depressing. It's like attributing it ALL to Benning is a big cope, like if we get rid of him it will all be fixed.

IF we get rid of him AND bring in a legit GM AND a president of hockey operations, then I will have some belief.

I think Benning is a meat shield for a lot of the dumb shit that Francesco has chosen to do.

To be clear, this isn't me being a head in the clouds optimist, it's actually more pessimistic, but true.

 

[4Twenty]

I don't know every detail of the transactions. I think it involved buying out Sutter and Virtanen, but I'm just telling you what I have read from Drance matches up with what my contact was telling me at the time.

Virtanen was a free agent. They chose to give him a raise.

Sutter’s buyout could’ve helped keep one of the guys but to me that feels that France speculation. They still brought Sutter back again this year so that seems especially a reach.

Toffoli told us he wasn’t contacted and they never made Tanev an offer (Dhaliwal repeated this today).

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

You don't need to be able to predict Covid to know the cap wouldn't go up by over $8M, which is how much it would've cost to keep both Tanev and Toffoli.
You don't need to be able to predict the future to know that Myers at $6m is a bad idea when you have some core players coming up for new contracts.
You don't need "incredible powers of prediction" to know that when you already have a significant portion of the cap tied up to junk, that adding another $4.5m on a backup goalie will cost you in the other area in a cap league.
You don't need anything but common sense to know that asking an owner to spend to the cap, THEN ask him to spend millions to buy out those players, is always going to be a tough ask, flat cap or not.

You are unable to see it because, like Benning, you are operating day-to-day with no ability for plan ahead. Its ok for you, but for a manager of a $800m organization, this is completely and utterly inexcusable. Stop making excuse for incompetence. Don't you think you deserve better?

hahaha, okay.

So you don't really understand what I'm saying and you're making a bunch of ill-educated guesses about my life. I'm done with this conversation.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

massive woosh here

Explain.