Post-Game Talk: Penguins 0 - Predators 300: Better Than No Sex Cake Edition

[rkhum]

As it stands right now, subject to change I don't see it is our year.
It was presented as if this was a matter of acquiring 1-2 wingers as a face lift.
But, I see a lot issues with the team's foundation.

Take a look at Chicago, then compare it to us, who in our minds is supposed to be what they have been and done.

Chicago has 2 all star forwards (Kane and Towews) to go with Sharp/Hossa/Saad for excellent skill support, a solid, purposeful bottom 6, along with Keith and Seabrook.

The Pens have a better duo in Crosby and Malkin but:
-Can they ever be healthy at the same time, enough?
-The Pens cast on the forwards is much worse. They have Perron who is ok, but otherwise an aging Kunitz, injury prone Bennet, and unknown in Hornqvist (can he stay healthy).
Their bottom 6 is much weaker than Chicago.

But perhaps the biggest problem I see with Pittsburgh is the loss of Maata.
The Pens have a bunch of Hjalmersson type defenseman, good, mobile puck movers, but they have no PPQB nor any stout, ironclad defenseman.
Keith and Seabrook are horses who excel at defending in their own zone.
We don't have that, and never did.
We scrapped by at times with role players like Scuderi/Gill who could PK and be a 5/6 dman focused just on protection. But we had a PPQB in Gonchar.

This team is soft at defense, all mobile puck movers, no tough defenseman who can match up and clear the crease.
When they play good teams with depth (Rangers) we cannot get the puck out of the zone, when they play teams with speed (Islanders) their AGE gets exposed. Hard to believe a team with Crosby/Malkin/Letang/mobile d struggles with speed, but the Pens do because of poor drafting.

There is no "Saad" on the Pens, a young, hungry, skilled player for the forwards. The Pens have one of the oldert teams.

We've been completely misguided and inaccurate in evaluating just how much talent the Pens have on the club.
People talk Crosby/Malkin/Letang+Kunitz/Hornqvist(Neal)/Sutter but dig a bit deeper and you've got two of the three best stars (Crosby+Malkin) along with a very good mobile, skating, passing defenseman who isn't a PPQB or stopper (Letang), and then a bunch of wingers/bottom 6 retreads/vets.

I feel like the Pens in regards to their forwards are acting like the pre-lockout Rangers...just signing/trading for vets/hired guns and depleting the farm system....which in my view is why they lack speed/hunger.

Something like this take a lot more than a tweak, it takes drafting, replenishing, and a culture switch.
We gave up one 1st rounder, let's hope we DO NOT trade away more picks.

In short, the Pens lack:

-Top six consistent skilled talent
-Bottom 6th depth
-Forward youth (the next tyler Kennedy?)
-SKILLED SIZE up front (Jordan Staal)
-Defensive defenseman who can skate
-PPQB

you can get away missing 1-2 of those (the 2009 Pens did not have a top four defensive defenseman) but not much...and this is if Fleury continues his strong play and they stay healthy.

Sucks.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Maybe more talent, but not as many elements of a Cup team I don't think. New versions of Gill, Talbot, Malone, etc. are nowhere to be found.

You don't think Comeau and Hornqvist can play like new versions of Talbot and Malone? Malone, btw, wasn't here for a Cup either.

 

[Ugene Magic]

There's one trait the Pens have that no other team seems to get taken too them.

Every game is like a playoff game, teams are up to the task because they're considered one of the top perceived teams in the east/league. They play the Pens hard just about every single game.

That's most likely the reason for so many injuries having to play so many playoff style games. That's a tough sled.

 

[Ogrezilla]

There's one trait the Pens have that no other team seems to get taken too them.

Every game is like a playoff game, teams are up to the task because they're considered one of the top perceived teams in the east/league. They play the Pens hard just about every single game.

That's most likely the reason for so many injuries having to play so many playoff style games. That's a tough sled.

you don't think teams get up for Chicago, LA or Boston the same way they get up for us? I just don't buy this as a reason for anything.

 

[blueliner18]

I realize nobody wins the cup in January, but when is this team going to show signs of life again? It's one thing to lose, but too look completely disinterested like this team does at key times in a game is a bit troubling. Is it just me or does David Perron look as if he wants to carry this team more than Crosby? I know Sid is having a tough go, but he has to realize he has that C on his chest. Regardless if he is getting his name on the score sheet or not he has a team full of guys looking for him to make something spectacular happen. I don't know, IMO he just seems off. He's not scoring, at times he is not as dominating as he can be in the corners, and he is not driving the net and beating defenders like he has in the past. This team right now has some terrible turnover issues, and can't win the faceoff battle to save their lives.

 

[Night Shift]

There's one trait the Pens have that no other team seems to get taken too them.

Every game is like a playoff game, teams are up to the task because they're considered one of the top perceived teams in the east/league. They play the Pens hard just about every single game.

That's most likely the reason for so many injuries having to play so many playoff style games. That's a tough sled.

It is but I also think the injuries can contribute with not matching other teams effort and their (Pens) seemingly lack of focus in games as a cause. Maybe I'm wrong but as they say- if you play with fear you're likely getting injured and all that's mental.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

There's one trait the Pens have that no other team seems to get taken too them.

Every game is like a playoff game, teams are up to the task because they're considered one of the top perceived teams in the east/league. They play the Pens hard just about every single game.

That's most likely the reason for so many injuries having to play so many playoff style games. That's a tough sled.

I don't buy that for a second.

 

[Ugene Magic]

you don't think teams get up for Chicago, LA or Boston the same way they get up for us? I just don't buy this as a reason for anything.

Yes. I do, but not at the level the Pens take on. Everyone, every single season treats them like they're the team to beat. It's not as if they are the true top team to beat, they treat them as a measuring stick.

How many games have the Pens just walked over teams?
Look at the recent stretch of games going back about 10.

How many injuries do the Hawks, LA. and Boston deal with each and every season for the past 5.

I'll tell you they don't match up, or....do they have them happen to their tops stars. All. The. Time.

I then ask you how many times these players have been injured consistently?

LA.

Kopitar
Doughty
Brown
Carter

Hawks.

Toews
Kane
Sharp
Hossa
Keith
Saad


Boston.

Bergeron
Lucic
Marchand
Krejci
Chara


Boston was broken up recently with different trades the last couple years. Some that moved on in Seguin, Boychuk, and some that came in that brought about some in Eriksson.

The point here is while some teams do have seasons of dismay with injuries, none of them have had the magnitude the Pens have had for 5/6 seasons straight.

It's actually eye opening.

Play it off if you want, but it's been in my view front and center for years.

 

[Ugene Magic]

It is but I also think the injuries can contribute with not matching other teams effort and their (Pens) seemingly lack of focus in games as a cause. Maybe I'm wrong but as they say- if you play with fear you're likely getting injured and all that's mental.

Great points.

I don't buy that for a second.

Read my above post to, Ogrezilla.

There's plenty to support it.

 

[yuri28]

you don't think teams get up for Chicago, LA or Boston the same way they get up for us? I just don't buy this as a reason for anything.

Despite winning Cups, those teams don't have 2 generational players like Crosby and Malkin.
Those 2 names alone must be a quite big motivation to play against, probably bigger than playing against the holding champions.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yes. I do, but not at the level the Pens take on. Everyone, every single season treats them like they're the team to beat. It's not as if they are the true top team to beat, they treat them as a measuring stick.

How many games have the Pens just walked over teams?
Look at the recent stretch of games going back about 10.

How many injuries do the Hawks, LA. and Boston deal with each and every season for the past 5.

I'll tell you they don't match up, or....do they have them happen to their tops stars. All. The. Time.

I then ask you how many times these players have been injured consistently?

LA.

Kopitar
Doughty
Brown
Carter

Hawks.

Toews
Kane
Sharp
Hossa
Keith
Saad


Boston.

Bergeron
Lucic
Marchand
Krejci
Chara


Boston was broken up recently with different trades the last couple years. Some that moved on in Seguin, Boychuk, and some that came in that brought about some in Eriksson.

The point here is while some teams do have seasons of dismay with injuries, none of them have had the magnitude the Pens have had for 5/6 seasons straight.

It's actually eye opening.

Play it off if you want, but it's been in my view front and center for years.

You just supported a completely different argument than the one I contested. Injuries are a far more likely why we don't walk over teams often. But I don't buy for a second that our struggles have anything to do with teams trying harder against us than they do against other teams. And I don't buy for a second that this extra effort is why our players get hurt more often. Watch the Kings play a divisional game and with a straight face tell me that our games are more playoff-like and physical than theirs.

 

[Michael8771*]

Regardless of if a team gets up for us or not, we need to execute good, smart, solid fundamentals. And if we can't even be bothered to do that, It doesn't matter much if a team views us as a measuring stick.

Watching this team at times is maddening. There is so much inconsistency here it's beyond absurd. MJ sucks.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Go and read Madden's or Yohe's tweets after today's game. To summarize:

"SID HAS ONLY SIX GOALS IN HIS PAST X GAMES!"
"4TH LINE DOESN'T REALLY MATTER!"
"DESPRES HAD A HORRIBLE DAY!"

And that's it. Simple as that. Then read the fan responses and it gets even more sickening. Adams is fantastic, Scuderi is great, etc. etc. Because they see it? No. It's because they're told that's what they see. Oh, and Sid needs to step up.

Now, Sid needs to be better. There's ZERO doubt about that. But this isn't basketball, and it can't always be on one or two guys. Sid and Geno are the two guys that give this team a fighting chance against every team on any night. Sid and Geno are the guys that get this team into the playoffs every year with home ice in EVERY SERIES THEY'VE PLAYED SINCE 2009.

It's the supporting cast that has to get you over the hump. It's the supporting cast that allows Jonathan Toews to score all of three goals during an entire Stanley Cup run and still call himself a two time Stanley Cup Champion and "clutch" leader.

Not one of them will mention that Despres made the right play (on the 2nd goal) but that he just ****ed it up with a bad pass because they don't understand the game that way. When the boards are taken away from you, the only way to break down a cycle is by going through the middle. Beau did the same thing last week against Philly. Right play, bad pass and it led to Philly's first goal. But all I heard was "BAD PLAY!!!"

Then of course, when they spend about 90 seconds in their zone because everyone and their mother are trying to bank it off the boards - "Boy, the Pens gotta figure out SOMETHING to get out of the zone!!!" ****ing morons.

Scuderi is the poster boy for what's wrong with the team and the media and the fans, with Adams being a close second. Scuderi is subtly bad. His tiny little **** ups are never overt, so they won't be noticed by casual fans or members of the fanboy PR machine. That bad play by Despres leading to the 2nd goal looked awful, and it was. But the accumulation of every single Scuderi "shooting wide on purpose" play, or him feebly banking the puck off the glass as his first and last option when under even slight pressure in his own zone - after a while - is like death by a thousand cuts. A casual fan may not notice it, but it destroys possession. It kills offense. It cripples transition. It makes you easier to play AND plan against.

Add it all up after 60 minutes, and it's just as bad if not worse than what Despres did. Add that up over an entire season? It's absolutely crippling.

I rarely read article comments, but I did for some reason a little while back and this moron wanted to strip Crosby of his C and trade him. That got me curious how many other morons existed out there like that, and in the last week, I must have read two dozen comments of people wanting to trade him. It's truly unreal how stupid people are.

I have no patience for people who think that way. Crosby was one of the hardest working, most competitive players I ever saw. If he has lost some of that fire, it's an org failing for building a team so poorly and giving him crap coaching all of these years.

Like you said, Toews did dick all and his team carried him to a cup on their backs, not vice versa. I never saw a captain lose his mind like he did in game four agt the Wings. After his third penalty, Seabrook had to go to the box and calm him down. It was surreal. Imagine if Crosby did that... the difference is no Pens team could carry them to a cup with Crosby not producing, like Toews failed to do. The Hawks bailed him out because they were built to be a champion that doesn't rely on two players being gods for the entire run.

The stuff with the brainwashing and making the casual fans believe Scuderi and Adams are integral and necessary pieces to a successful team, is ridiculous. It has to stop if this org wants to win another cup. Being old and experienced doesn't make you a better player than a young guy.

How can anyone, as a casual fan, watch these two fumble with the puck and lumber around the ice, and think they are key cogs on a successful team? The reality is, most fans don't know any better. However, this org should know better. Of course they are too busy making Iron Man tributes to Adams and brainwashing the fans and themselves into thinking Scuds is the reason Despres is blossoming.

You know what really defies all logic? JR has been talking since the summer about them needing more from their fourth line. He keeps musing about how they need to score more and improve. Yet the guy he dumped 5 years ago is still a constant on that line. However, they can't connect the dots there. It's a great mystery...

It's like someone stepping on a rusty nail, then wondering if the reason their foot hurts, is because their shoes are too tight. "Gotta be the shoes... that nail stuck in my foot just adds 'grit and character', you know? Can't bench the nail. Just can't do it."

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'm doubting this whole story of yours. Always find it funny that it's the same whipping boys. Adam freaking plays less than 10 minutes a game. He is a PK'er, that's is all (and he's not even a minus this year in plus/minus). Bortuzzo is RARELY ripped here and this guy has been HORRENDOUS for over 1 month straight. I went to 3 games in the past 6 weeks and Scuds was the best overall D man on the ice after Letang. The reason Hornqvist doesn't play with Crosby was that he wasn't producing after his initial hot streak.

The guy who thinks Perron is holding back Crosby and Kunitz, doubts my story.

That really hurts...

I'll just have to tell my wife she doesn't exist and never said those things. Then get to laugh when she rolls her eyes.

And if you think Bort doesn't get ripped on, you are obviously ignoring what is being posted. Not more than two days ago, I just said I don't see a future with him as a Pen and want him to sit so DP or Harrington get those minutes.

Bort is not well liked around here. Just another totally bizarre comment coming off your keyboard.

 

[Shady Machine]

Hornqvist is closer than James Neal game than what I thought. Guy 1st reaction when given any chance is to snipe and he can pick corners like Neal.

As each day passes, it looks like there is no clear vision on what players roles are sans a few bottom feeders. We know what Maxim and Adams role is because they can't provide anything besides one or two traits. Players like Bennett, Spaling, Hornqvist seem to have no rhyme or reason about their roles on their line or who the heck they are to play with........Is Hornqvist Malkin's mate? Crosby's? Is he going to be a 3rd line frwd (with top PP time) to get more scoring down the lineup?

You have no idea what you are watching if you think Hornqvist is anything like Neal.

 

[Shady Machine]

I can accept that Despres had the right idea, even though he botched it, but a no-look backhand, behind the back pass through the slot in your own zone is never the right play and probably the worst possible play that can be made in that situation short of throwing it into the crease. Should have just reversed it behind the net. Philly didn't have anyone in position to win a race to that location.

Yeah I know you really don't like Bennett, but I can't say that a lot of your analysis of him is wrong, especially here. It was a very stupid pass.

 

[NastyNick]

Adversity is good for this team. They need to hit rock bottom now.. and not at the start of April.


I'm tired of seeing this team coast into the playoffs in early March.. and play half the lineup in the last 2 weeks of the season.. while other teams are playing for their lives. I don't think its done the Penguins any favors in the first two rounds.

Nor do i think this team needs another home series in rounds 1 or 2. They are 0-3 in game 7s at home during the Crosby years. They are 2-0 in game 7s on the road. They haven't played a game 7 on the road since the Cup win.

They need a little adversity and they need a road series vs the Isles or Rangers or Capitals in round 1. They need to fight over a playoff spot with the Flyers.. and win it. That would do so much more good then coasting over the division and "resting" half the lineup in the final week.

But with all that said.. i have significant reservations about our goaltending right now. Both that it might not be good enough to get us into the playoffs.. and it might submarine the entire thing when we do get there. Fleury has always operated on his own terms. He doesn't always play well when the team is playing well. He also has a playoff resume that defies any expectation. I really wished Vokoun hadn't gotten that blood clot...

 

[Ugene Magic]

You just supported a completely different argument than the one I contested. Injuries are a far more likely why we don't walk over teams often. But I don't buy for a second that our struggles have anything to do with teams trying harder against us than they do against other teams. And I don't buy for a second that this extra effort is why our players get hurt more often. Watch the Kings play a divisional game and with a straight face tell me that our games are more playoff-like and physical than theirs.

They all intertwine together.


Cherry picking is cherry picking, how about when they weren't the cup winners. How about before they won their first or between the two. Even the Cup winners don't see it long before or as long after winning them. Look beyond divisional rivals. There's a whole conference, and an entire league after that.

There's no team like the Pens where they are looked at as the darlings of the league that posses two generational talents, "one being the face of the entire league."

That's every single season. Cup or no cup.

I addressed your question just fine. You keep coming back to a cup winning team. What about the rest?

Regardless of if a team gets up for us or not, we need to execute good, smart, solid fundamentals. And if we can't even be bothered to do that, It doesn't matter much if a team views us as a measuring stick.

Watching this team at times is maddening. There is so much inconsistency here it's beyond absurd. MJ sucks.

When you have your bottom six as part of your top six, "in key roles mind you," that will happen.

 

[Shwag33]

I think this is good.... provided they dont miss the playoffs; need some adversity.

 

[mikethelegacy]

The guy who thinks Perron is holding back Crosby and Kunitz, doubts my story.

That really hurts...

I'll just have to tell my wife she doesn't exist and never said those things. Then get to laugh when she rolls her eyes.

And if you think Bort doesn't get ripped on, you are obviously ignoring what is being posted. Not more than two days ago, I just said I don't see a future with him as a Pen and want him to sit so DP or Harrington get those minutes.

Bort is not well liked around here. Just another totally bizarre comment coming off your keyboard.

If you don't feed the trolls, they go back into hiding. The kid is obviously just here to start trouble.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

If you don't feed the trolls, they go back into hiding. The kid is obviously just here to start trouble.

After being stupid enough to read through PG and Trib article comments for the first time, I can say with certainity there are actually Pens fans who think like this.

 

[Michael8771*]

I think this is good.... provided they dont miss the playoffs; need some adversity.

Let's see, Sill plays every game, Adams plays every game, Sutters been invisible for most of the season, Maatta's out for the season, MJ personnel decisions are ridiculous, the team itself makes more turnovers game in and game out than a bakery, and on and on. So yeah, plenty of adversity to overcome, no worries!

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

After being stupid enough to read through PG and Trib article comments for the first time, I can say with certainity there are actually Pens fans who think like this.

What most Pens fans think about the team would probably make you want to move to a cabin in the middle of the woods with not even a tiny chance of even accidentally reading anything online ever again. This is a bastion of sanity... as over-the-top ridiculous as that sounds.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Injuries do not explain the complete lack of basic fundamental hockey that has been lacking. Yes, there are guys forced to play who have no business being in the NHL because of injuries so maybe they have an excuse for the errors we keep seeing. But it is not just the no names forced into play because of necessity making these bone headed lack of hockey sense plays, it is the vets we are counting on.

And honestly that comes to coaching.

Either they are not being told the right things to do, not being held to account, or are purposefully tuning this staff out. Does it really matter which of those it is? In the end it is a coaching fail.

I can take losing, I can take a team like the Pens coasting into April and trying to remain healthy. But what we see is stupidity and bad habits that will you can not just turn off at will.

 

[Michael8771*]

Injuries do not explain the complete lack of basic fundamental hockey that has been lacking. Yes, there are guys forced to play who have no business being in the NHL because of injuries so maybe they have an excuse for the errors we keep seeing. But it is not just the no names forced into play because of necessity making these bone headed lack of hockey sense plays, it is the vets we are counting on.

And honestly that comes to coaching.

Either they are not being told the right things to do, not being held to account, or are purposefully tuning this staff out. Does it really matter which of those it is? In the end it is a coaching fail.

I can take losing, I can take a team like the Pens coasting into April and trying to remain healthy. But what we see is stupidity and bad habits that will you can not just turn off at will.

Very solid post. Well stated.